When is light rail not light rail?

[D.P. Roberts]

I just saw this video on CNN, & thought it was interesting:CNN - Las Vegas Bus System

At the beginning of the video I fell for it & thought the dude was riding a train. I think it's very interesting that the whole system is designed to 'emulate" a light rail system - from the design of the cars, ticket booths, and "stations" to the use of dedicated lanes (which is the only thing that makes this anything like a rail system).

The only thing I can compare this to, from my own experience, is Walt Disney World. I'm not sure if the buses at WDW have dedicated lanes, but it basically felt like they did. Still, when given a choice of how to get around WDW, I always chose boats, monorails, or even walking over the buses.

Still, I wonder how many cities could use something like this as a stepping stone to a true light rail system.

 

[stntylr]

It's called BRT. Bus Rapid Transit

Several cities are looking into it as a cheaper alternative to LRT. It can get expensive with the separate bus lans and bus stations. I know that Houston has some it has built and San Antonio is planning on building a system. San Antonio is the largest city in the US without any kind of LRT or commuter rail and they seem to want to keep it that way.

 

[leemell]

I just saw this video on CNN, & thought it was interesting:CNN - Las Vegas Bus System
At the beginning of the video I fell for it & thought the dude was riding a train. I think it's very interesting that the whole system is designed to 'emulate" a light rail system - from the design of the cars, ticket booths, and "stations" to the use of dedicated lanes (which is the only thing that makes this anything like a rail system).

The only thing I can compare this to, from my own experience, is Walt Disney World. I'm not sure if the buses at WDW have dedicated lanes, but it basically felt like they did. Still, when given a choice of how to get around WDW, I always chose boats, monorails, or even walking over the buses.

Still, I wonder how many cities could use something like this as a stepping stone to a true light rail system.

The LA RTD started this for their system about five years ago --- the orange line. Runs from North Hollywood to Canoga Park and soon to Chatsworth on dedicated busways. They purchased 64 foot long two sectioned busses. They are now planning to buy 80 foot busses. The ROW is former UP track locations. They examined this kind of system in Brazil, Rio I think, before deciding to go ahead with it. It has succeeded far beyond the projections. Originally they were looking at 20k passengers a year by 2015. Last year they had nearly 30k.

 

[AlanB]

I'm not quite sure where or how Brazil's system stands and it doing, but LA's Orange line is quite successful after a very rough start. Unfortunately, LA's Orange line is also a victim of its own success.

It's so popular that during rush hour the buses are too full. At the closer in stations it's not uncommon for those boarding to have to allow 3 or 4 buses go by, before they can actually board. The buses are simply packed at times with no room left for those at the stations nearest the Red line. It is for this reason that they are considering 80 foot buses. Unfortunately that only kicks the inevitable further down the road, which is why some are already screaming for either a conversion of the light to light rail or to start building a subway right now.

The new buses buy them time only to decide what to do. The only other option, which again only buys some time, would be to close all the crossings. That without a doubt will never happen. The howls of protest will be heard miles away from the local if the street crossings are closed.

Light rail is probably the best solution, as it would take the least amount of time to build. The problems with that are; 1) many locals are still opposed to rail. 2) How do they build the tracks and string the wires without making a significant impact on the current service? 3) Where do the find the money without impacting all the other projects currently under way or about to be under construction?

 

[WhoozOn1st]

I think it's very interesting that the whole system is designed to 'emulate" a light rail system - from the design of the cars, ticket booths, and "stations" to the use of dedicated lanes (which is the only thing that makes this anything like a rail system).

No "emulation" of rail was seen during a recent visit to Vegas. Undoubtedly it's there somewhere, but every single one of the "emulators" I saw over several days was plodding along in traffic like a regular bus. This doesn't resemble any light rail system I'm aware of:

A surprise seen in Vegas was the use of double-decker buses on regular routes. Articulated units are old hat, and they're still around, but this was new to me. At first they were thought to be private tour buses of some sort, then I noticed destination boards with route info, and the transit system's logo. Didn't get a pic of my own, but here's one found on Google:

 

[MJL]

Why doesn't LA just buy & run more buses?

 

[AlanB]

Why doesn't LA just buy & run more buses?

Well in general because it's so much more expensive.

However, if you're referring to the Orange line problem, that would be because they can't fit any more buses in the special BRT roadway. Aside from the accident danger, if they ran the buses any closer together than they do now, the gates at the crossings would never go up at all during rush hour.

 

[leemell]

Why doesn't LA just buy & run more buses?

Well in general because it's so much more expensive.

However, if you're referring to the Orange line problem, that would be because they can't fit any more buses in the special BRT roadway. Aside from the accident danger, if they ran the buses any closer together than they do now, the gates at the crossings would never go up at all during rush hour.

Are you talking about the LA MTA Orange Line? Gates? At crossings? No such things on the Orange Line. Just street sensor controlled traffic signals. The busway is no where near capacity yet. The MTA currently considereing running two or three busses in convoy and looking to getting state approval for the 64 and 80 foot busses.

 

[AlanB]

Why doesn't LA just buy & run more buses?

Well in general because it's so much more expensive.

However, if you're referring to the Orange line problem, that would be because they can't fit any more buses in the special BRT roadway. Aside from the accident danger, if they ran the buses any closer together than they do now, the gates at the crossings would never go up at all during rush hour.

Are you talking about the LA MTA Orange Line? Gates? At crossings? No such things on the Orange Line. Just street sensor controlled traffic signals. The busway is no where near capacity yet. The MTA currently considereing running two or three busses in convoy and looking to getting state approval for the 64 and 80 foot busses.

My bad. I thought that I had read some where that after all the accidents early on they had installed gates. I've never been on the Orange line.

It is however during the height of rush hour at capacity. I've seen more than one story of people at the stops closest in on the busway having to allow one or more buses to pass because they could not board the bus since it was packed to the gills. Buying 80 foot buses, which only add to the overall costs of the supposedly cheaper BRT, will help some. But it is nothing more than a temp solution. Putting buses into convoys is probably not all that practical and it ups the risk for accidents while perhaps also lowering the overall speed of the buses.

Every non-biased transportation planner will tell you that LA will have to do something else with the Orange line by about 2020 as it will be unable to handle the demands by that point or shortly thereafter.

 

[leemell]

Why doesn't LA just buy & run more buses?

Well in general because it's so much more expensive.

However, if you're referring to the Orange line problem, that would be because they can't fit any more buses in the special BRT roadway. Aside from the accident danger, if they ran the buses any closer together than they do now, the gates at the crossings would never go up at all during rush hour.

Are you talking about the LA MTA Orange Line? Gates? At crossings? No such things on the Orange Line. Just street sensor controlled traffic signals. The busway is no where near capacity yet. The MTA currently considereing running two or three busses in convoy and looking to getting state approval for the 64 and 80 foot busses.

My bad. I thought that I had read some where that after all the accidents early on they had installed gates. I've never been on the Orange line.

It is however during the height of rush hour at capacity. I've seen more than one story of people at the stops closest in on the busway having to allow one or more buses to pass because they could not board the bus since it was packed to the gills. Buying 80 foot buses, which only add to the overall costs of the supposedly cheaper BRT, will help some. But it is nothing more than a temp solution. Putting buses into convoys is probably not all that practical and it ups the risk for accidents while perhaps also lowering the overall speed of the buses.

Every non-biased transportation planner will tell you that LA will have to do something else with the Orange line by about 2020 as it will be unable to handle the demands by that point or shortly thereafter.

I have watched the Orange Line busses at two stops during the busiest time. So far I have yet to see anybody letting the bus go without boarding. In addition, MTA has put the 65 foot busses into service. They are just 10 feet shorter that the MTA subway cars and can carry up to 100 passengers. They were designed specifically for the Orange Line.

As far as accidents go the Orange Line had about the same accident rate as other bus lines in the city on a per-mile basis, and more recently the line's accident rate is "less than half" of the MTA's entire fleet of buses. Convoying will not add to the accident rate as they would all pass through the intersections at the same time as the signals are sensor controlled.

 

[AlanB]

It is however during the height of rush hour at capacity. I've seen more than one story of people at the stops closest in on the busway having to allow one or more buses to pass because they could not board the bus since it was packed to the gills. Buying 80 foot buses, which only add to the overall costs of the supposedly cheaper BRT, will help some. But it is nothing more than a temp solution. Putting buses into convoys is probably not all that practical and it ups the risk for accidents while perhaps also lowering the overall speed of the buses.

Every non-biased transportation planner will tell you that LA will have to do something else with the Orange line by about 2020 as it will be unable to handle the demands by that point or shortly thereafter.

I have watched the Orange Line busses at two stops during the busiest time. So far I have yet to see anybody letting the bus go without boarding. In addition, MTA has put the 65 foot busses into service. They are just 10 feet shorter that the MTA subway cars and can carry up to 100 passengers. They were designed specifically for the Orange Line.

As far as accidents go the Orange Line had about the same accident rate as other bus lines in the city on a per-mile basis, and more recently the line's accident rate is "less than half" of the MTA's entire fleet of buses. Convoying will not add to the accident rate as they would all pass through the intersections at the same time as the signals are sensor controlled.

And you were at one of the last stops before the bus reaches the Red Line, during rush hour, on the inbound side?

Regarding the increased risk of accidents that I mentioned with convoys, I wasn't referring to accidents with other cars. I'm talking about an increased risk of two buses hitting one another.

 

[Eric S]

Isn't there (or wasn't there) a law that prohibited the building of a rail transit line in the Orange Line corridor?

 

[AlanB]

Isn't there (or wasn't there) a law that prohibited the building of a rail transit line in the Orange Line corridor?

No law that I'm aware of that would have prevented light rail. There was a moritorium against subways until recently, but nothing against LRT. There was however, as is not untypical, considerable local Nimbyism against LRT.

 

[Eric S]

Isn't there (or wasn't there) a law that prohibited the building of a rail transit line in the Orange Line corridor?

No law that I'm aware of that would have prevented light rail. There was a moritorium against subways until recently, but nothing against LRT. There was however, as is not untypical, considerable local Nimbyism against LRT.

Yeah, I knew about the law prohibiting subway construction, but I thought that (perhaps at one time, not anymore) there was a law prohibiting construction of a rail transit line specifically in the Orange Line corridor. But, of course, I could certainly be mistaken.

 

[leemell]

Isn't there (or wasn't there) a law that prohibited the building of a rail transit line in the Orange Line corridor?

No law that I'm aware of that would have prevented light rail. There was a moritorium against subways until recently, but nothing against LRT. There was however, as is not untypical, considerable local Nimbyism against LRT.

Yeah, I knew about the law prohibiting subway construction, but I thought that (perhaps at one time, not anymore) there was a law prohibiting construction of a rail transit line specifically in the Orange Line corridor. But, of course, I could certainly be mistaken.

No law against it. The BRT was built instead of LRT because MTA didn't have the money for rail (despite promising a subway when the Red Line was in the design phase). Even with the BRT, there was a vociferous campaign again it by the neighbors along some parts of the route.

 

[leemell]

It is however during the height of rush hour at capacity. I've seen more than one story of people at the stops closest in on the busway having to allow one or more buses to pass because they could not board the bus since it was packed to the gills. Buying 80 foot buses, which only add to the overall costs of the supposedly cheaper BRT, will help some. But it is nothing more than a temp solution. Putting buses into convoys is probably not all that practical and it ups the risk for accidents while perhaps also lowering the overall speed of the buses.

Every non-biased transportation planner will tell you that LA will have to do something else with the Orange line by about 2020 as it will be unable to handle the demands by that point or shortly thereafter.

I have watched the Orange Line busses at two stops during the busiest time. So far I have yet to see anybody letting the bus go without boarding. In addition, MTA has put the 65 foot busses into service. They are just 10 feet shorter that the MTA subway cars and can carry up to 100 passengers. They were designed specifically for the Orange Line.

As far as accidents go the Orange Line had about the same accident rate as other bus lines in the city on a per-mile basis, and more recently the line's accident rate is "less than half" of the MTA's entire fleet of buses. Convoying will not add to the accident rate as they would all pass through the intersections at the same time as the signals are sensor controlled.

And you were at one of the last stops before the bus reaches the Red Line, during rush hour, on the inbound side?

Regarding the increased risk of accidents that I mentioned with convoys, I wasn't referring to accidents with other cars. I'm talking about an increased risk of two buses hitting one another.

Laurel Canyon and Fulton 8-9. I seriously doubt that the bus drivers would have a significant problem with rearenders on a dedicated busway. These drivers are all picked from the regular street lines where the traffic makes rearenders much more of a threat.