WSDOT reports on Point Defiance Bypass resumption and new trainsets for Cascades service

[joelkfla]

Yes, that is part of running a railroad. WSDOT has had 4 years to figure this out.

But the pandemic hit just 2 years ago, and the effects on labor as it relates to rail operations mostly within the past year.

 

[Big Green Chauvanist]

It's not only the now-single track Ruston tunnel which gums up the works on the line, but interference from freight traffic. As the bypass line is almost exclusively dedicated to passenger rail, that in itself is a benefit.

 

[Seaboard92]

Well I wouldn't say the new line is dedicated to passenger rail at all. If you look on the satelite map you'll see quite a few active freight shippers on the new line, and there is a freight train on it too. So there is still the potential for traffic problems. It's a shortline however.

 

[Trogdor]

Don't they have to schedule now assuming that the trip will be run by standard equipment and not Talgo, given the equipment situation? Would that not mean that they'd have to discount any time saving based on assuming a Talgo schedule? If that is the case I would not expect any significant shortening of schedules at this point until some other areas get speed increments.

I thought recent rules basically allowed conventional equipment to operate at Talgo speeds along that corridor.

 

[Willbridge]

I thought recent rules basically allowed conventional equipment to operate at Talgo speeds along that corridor.

That was my understanding, too. We should also note the station relocation, which tends to come toward the bottom of news stories.

 

[alanh]

I thought the S-curve to get over the highway was a little odd. Usually the railroad was there first, and the railroad is the immovable object.

However, looking at old aerial photos and topo maps, the S-curve has been there pre-I-5, since at least 1940. I-5 was formerly US 99, and I-5 south uses the same underpass that US 99 did. So I'm wondering if this is a rare case where the highway was there first and the railroad went around it.

 

[Cal]

I thought the S-curve to get over the highway was a little odd. Usually the railroad was there first, and the railroad is the immovable object.

However, looking at old aerial photos and topo maps, the S-curve has been there pre-I-5, since at least 1940. I-5 was formerly US 99, and I-5 south uses the same underpass that US 99 did. So I'm wondering if this is a rare case where the highway was there first and the railroad went around it.

Can you link the pictures?

 

[Willbridge]

I thought the S-curve to get over the highway was a little odd. Usually the railroad was there first, and the railroad is the immovable object.

However, looking at old aerial photos and topo maps, the S-curve has been there pre-I-5, since at least 1940. I-5 was formerly US 99, and I-5 south uses the same underpass that US 99 did. So I'm wondering if this is a rare case where the highway was there first and the railroad went around it.

Good detective work! I had blamed it on cost-cutting for I-5 but didn't think about the fact that Washington used lots of segments of US99, some were part of the original Pacific Highway.

The rail line was there first. Part of it was the original NP trackage in Tacoma, from Tenino known as the Prairie Line. The Point Defiance line opened in 1914, along with Tacoma Union Station.
uw-tacoma-prairie-line-terminal-hra.pdf

In the 1916 Official Guide reprint it was used by all three Vancouver, BC <> Portland GN trains. All three UP Seattle<>Portland trains used the Point Defiance route. NP trains to Grays Harbor (2) and Portland (3) used both routes.

The fastest SEA<>PDX train in 1916 was the UP's pair that were scheduled PDX<>SEA in exactly six hours each way (averaged 30 mph). This is interesting because as the owner the NP in later years had the fastest train. Even before the Pool Line agreement the Portland//Seattle line was entangled in numerous deals between companies. (The SP&S Bridge over the Columbia has a pier that was built by the UP.)

So with #alanh we've pushed the responsibility back to construction of the Pacific Highway or at least to the 1930's construction of US99. My grandfather went to his army training at Fort Lewis in 1917 on this line but he never mentioned that curve to me!

In 1956 my dad rode the "last" scheduled passenger train to Grays Harbor over today's "new" line.





In 1968 I rode an excursion train from Portland to Tacoma that ran from Tacoma to Tenino on the Prairie Line. Only a few months later I was crossing it on a 12-mile march in army basic training.

 

[Chris I]

I thought the S-curve to get over the highway was a little odd. Usually the railroad was there first, and the railroad is the immovable object.

However, looking at old aerial photos and topo maps, the S-curve has been there pre-I-5, since at least 1940. I-5 was formerly US 99, and I-5 south uses the same underpass that US 99 did. So I'm wondering if this is a rare case where the highway was there first and the railroad went around it.

They cut corners when building I-5 in this section big time. WSDOT is spending billions re-building all over the overpasses north of here because the old ones required the interstate to dive down, preventing easy expansion. The railroad overpass was built for HWY 99, but they should have restored the original routing when building I-5.

ODOT/WSDOT are about to spend billions to finally replace the Columbia River crossings, because one span was built as part of HWY 99 and is nearing 100 years. When they built I-5, they just added an identical span upstream.

 

[alanh]

Can you link the pictures?

I don't think I can directly link, but go to Historic Aerials and search for Dupont, WA. Scroll a little to the southwest and you'll see where it crosses I-5. You can then select different years of aerials and topo maps. The 1955 aerial is from before I-5. The 1969 one shows the then-new northbound side.

On the 1940 topo, you can see a road called "Old Pacific Hwy" that loops to the south of the US 99 route. This may be old US 99, and the S-curve may be from when US 99 was rerouted.

 

[Ryan]

You are literally the worst person in the world, Alan. I had a lot of productive plans for today, and that website just sent all of them to the "not gonna happen today" list.

Apparently there used to be a drive in movie theater less than a 1/2 mile from my house that disappeared sometime between 1981 and 1993.

 

[Cal]

You are literally the worst person in the world, Alan. I had a lot of productive plans for today, and that website just sent all of them to the "not gonna happen today" list.

Apparently there used to be a drive in movie theater less than a 1/2 mile from my house that disappeared sometime between 1981 and 1993.

The amount of times I have spent hours just researching old railway lines and stations, if only I had this tool then!

 

[Willbridge]

I don't think I can directly link, but go to Historic Aerials and search for Dupont, WA. Scroll a little to the southwest and you'll see where it crosses I-5. You can then select different years of aerials and topo maps. The 1955 aerial is from before I-5. The 1969 one shows the then-new northbound side.

On the 1940 topo, you can see a road called "Old Pacific Hwy" that loops to the south of the US 99 route. This may be old US 99, and the S-curve may be from when US 99 was rerouted.

There are pieces of the Old Pacific Highway that are still in service nearby. They show up on Google maps. I drove another piece of it for road driving practice before I took the exam. My dad chose it because there were places where I'd have to downshift and use the engine for braking.

 

[jis]

I thought recent rules basically allowed conventional equipment to operate at Talgo speeds along that corridor.

So I guess the tilting in Talgo was yet another fake selling point then? Seems to make the case for getting rid of the Talgos sooner rather than later even stronger. Why pay more for the same level of service more or less?

 

[Trogdor]

So I guess the tilting in Talgo was yet another fake selling point then? Seems to make the case for getting rid of the Talgos sooner rather than later even stronger. Why pay more for the same level of service more or less?

Supposedly more of a passenger comfort thing than anything related to safety. After all, there was nothing particularly special about the locomotives or ancient cabbage cars that operated at those higher Talgo speeds.

 

[jis]

Supposedly more of a passenger comfort thing than anything related to safety. After all, there was nothing particularly special about the locomotives or ancient cabbage cars that operated at those higher Talgo speeds.

Tilting systems are always about passenger comfort and not about safety. Europeans manage to go faster around the curves because they allow way larger cant deficiency (which is about safety) than we allow here. The tilt when added makes it more comfortable. You can really feel and see it in the Pendolinos in the UK for example.

 

[Triley]

Just got a schedule update for our December trip up to Seattle. They shaved a whole 5 minutes off of our arrival time for train 500. No schedule improvements shown for the Coast Starlight on our trip back south, however.

I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't announce extra round trips this week. Adding trains for the busy Thanksgiving/Christmas travel period would have made sense.

WSDOT was interested in running 517/518 (SEA-PDX only) on a few days, but as was already said, there is not enough equipment. A crew could have been scraped together.

Yes, that is part of running a railroad. WSDOT has had 4 years to figure this out.

The Series 6s were only retired at the beginning of Covid, and the only other reliable source of spare equipment is Amtrak, which has been particularly tight on the equipment pool. It's never been an issue with getting a single Horizon set, but we're talking about requiring 5 (or 6) sets to run holiday extras, when that equipment belongs to corporate Amtrak, and corporate Amtrak is worried about corporate Amtrak trains, so it is being pressed in to service elsewhere in the country for the holidays.

Obviously I can't go in to extraordinary details, but I'll offer this....out of the 55 Horizon coaches in the system, there is literally only 1 spare (+3 protects) for the week of Thanksgiving. Amfleet Is aren't much much better. There isn't a single spare Superliner either.

So yeah....no equipment to be had.

 

[Chris I]

WSDOT was interested in running 517/518 (SEA-PDX only) on a few days, but as was already said, there is not enough equipment. A crew could have been scraped together.



The Series 6s were only retired at the beginning of Covid, and the only other reliable source of spare equipment is Amtrak, which has been particularly tight on the equipment pool. It's never been an issue with getting a single Horizon set, but we're talking about requiring 5 (or 6) sets to run holiday extras, when that equipment belongs to corporate Amtrak, and corporate Amtrak is worried about corporate Amtrak trains, so it is being pressed in to service elsewhere in the country for the holidays.

Obviously I can't go in to extraordinary details, but I'll offer this....out of the 55 Horizon coaches in the system, there is literally only 1 spare (+3 protects) for the week of Thanksgiving. Amfleet Is aren't much much better. There isn't a single spare Superliner either.

So yeah....no equipment to be had.

There are two Talgo VIII sets sitting somewhere... Beach Grove? Did WSDOT not evaluate the equipment issues when they chose to retire the Talgo VI? Many people were saying that they needed to acquire the Wisconsin sets at the time.

I think this whole ordeal just shows that passenger rail is not a priority for WSDOT. Many shortsighted decisions, and now we have a $200 million bypass project that was supposed to add train frequency back in 2017, but now we won't be able to until 2024 when we get new Siemens trainsets? Or is the plan to acquire additional Horizon cars as the Midwest gets additional new Siemens cars?

 

[Triley]

There are two Talgo VIII sets sitting somewhere... Beach Grove? Did WSDOT not evaluate the equipment issues when they chose to retire the Talgo VI? Many people were saying that they needed to acquire the Wisconsin sets at the time.

I think this whole ordeal just shows that passenger rail is not a priority for WSDOT. Many shortsighted decisions, and now we have a $200 million bypass project that was supposed to add train frequency back in 2017, but now we won't be able to until 2024 when we get new Siemens trainsets? Or is the plan to acquire additional Horizon cars as the Midwest gets additional new Siemens cars?

And without being on the side of WSDOT decision making, no one here can safely say why they did what they did, and if their plans fell apart.

What I can say is that the cost of acquiring the Wisconsin Talgos is simply not worth it. There's no business class, no diner (table car), and the Cafe would need extensive changes. I don't remember if they had baggage cars or not. There were also numerous issues with the Talgo equipment and company, and WSDOT is done with them. Was this the right way of handling the matter? It's up to them to decide how to run their service.

That being said, they wanted to follow the recommendation to pull the 6's out of service, which from the general public's standpoint was a good thing. The parked series 8s would need a lot of work to get them ready for Cascades service, and they require specialized maintenance that is costly to provide. Talgo is basically non-existent in Seattle at this point, and no longer has onboard technicians (because they were costly to provide as well), which means that the equipment has more frequent issues that require it back in the shop for overnight layovers frequently. No equipment should require technicians to be riding at all times to diagnose/fix issues along the way.

Also I thought it would be worth mentioning, if you've followed other Cascades related posts, you would know that the Jefferson trainset is still out of service after suffering a pickup strike and minor derailment. It caused a lot of damage, and is still being repaired. If this set was still in service, there would be enough equipment to run a holiday extra...but no one plans to have a trainset out of service for 2 months because of damage, and needing 2 protect sets.

 

[west point]

Very old topo maps show something different as to the "S" curve. The ones before US99 show the rail line somewhat different. The street name Railroad is important. Those who live there now can give a better idea as to what actually happened.

 

[acelafan]

From #11 (13). I will definitely miss the scenery of this route.

 

[Willbridge]

From #11 (13). I will definitely miss the scenery of this route.

My 98-year old father understands the reasons for the change but even though the days of his monthly business trip PDX<>SEA are past he'll miss that panorama. He would ride Train 457 up, having lunch around this point and return on Train 458. For the return, he'd head to the diner just before the stop in Tacoma so he'd have a window seat for this view. One thing that is often overlooked is that in the West business travelers sometimes enjoy the scenery, too.

Lucius Beebe once wrote that the Union Pacific steak sandwich with home cut fries on this train was the best economy diner meal in the country. I only had it once, as the $5.50 price was over my budget. It cost nothing, though, as it was on the tail end of my 1967 trip from St. Louis to Portland via Winnipeg and Edmonton on a no-extra charge optional routing. I was out of cash and the steward said that the UP did not take checks. Students did not have credit cards in those days. He took my address and said that the UP would bill me. I said I'd be glad to write a check to them when they did. He snarkily told me that was not his problem.

The new route will remind me of Army Basic Training: my grandfather's, my father's, and mine. More snarky people in 1917, 1943 and 1968 and less good food. However, passing the slow traffic on I-5 will be something to look forward to.

 

[Chris I]

And without being on the side of WSDOT decision making, no one here can safely say why they did what they did, and if their plans fell apart.

What I can say is that the cost of acquiring the Wisconsin Talgos is simply not worth it. There's no business class, no diner (table car), and the Cafe would need extensive changes. I don't remember if they had baggage cars or not. There were also numerous issues with the Talgo equipment and company, and WSDOT is done with them. Was this the right way of handling the matter? It's up to them to decide how to run their service.

That being said, they wanted to follow the recommendation to pull the 6's out of service, which from the general public's standpoint was a good thing. The parked series 8s would need a lot of work to get them ready for Cascades service, and they require specialized maintenance that is costly to provide. Talgo is basically non-existent in Seattle at this point, and no longer has onboard technicians (because they were costly to provide as well), which means that the equipment has more frequent issues that require it back in the shop for overnight layovers frequently. No equipment should require technicians to be riding at all times to diagnose/fix issues along the way.

Also I thought it would be worth mentioning, if you've followed other Cascades related posts, you would know that the Jefferson trainset is still out of service after suffering a pickup strike and minor derailment. It caused a lot of damage, and is still being repaired. If this set was still in service, there would be enough equipment to run a holiday extra...but no one plans to have a trainset out of service for 2 months because of damage, and needing 2 protect sets.

It sounds like the equipment pool for Cascades service is in bad shape. How are they going to find enough cars to start up 2 daily Vancouver, BC trains here in 2022?

 

[jis]

I bet they are hoping that Midwest will provide enough hand me downs by then to carry on for a year or two until the Cascade tranche of Siemens trainsets are delivered.

 

[Big Green Chauvanist]

Great 30-minute video from KING-TV 5 of part of the first run as seen from the air!