WSDOT retiring, selling Talgo trainsets, not acquiring "Wisconsin" trainsets yet

[zephyr17]

Why is WSDOT so opposed to buying the Wisconsin sets? I don't know why they wouldn't, but do they not meet modern crash safety standards? IMO, that is the only valid reason for them not to buy them. They could easily be renovated to meet WSDOT service standards, and re-liveried into the Cascades paint scheme. It is such a waste to let the perfectly-good WI Talgo sets continue to sit unused, when they could fill WSDOT's needs better than Venture coaches would.

Talgo 8s are fully FRA compliant and the two Oregon-owned Talgo 8 sets remain in Cascades service.

Washington DOT doesn't want to deal with Talgo at all any more, primarily because of the required maintenance contracts. They already had kind of had it with them even prior to the Nisqually wreck. They also want to take advantage of the economics of scale in maintenance by having standard Amtrak corridor cars, the Ventures, instead of one-offs, which the Talgos are in the larger Amtrak ecosystem.

Talgo's apparent obstinance and unwillingness to negotiate more on those maintenance contracts pretty much cost them their North American market entirely. Washington was their lead North American customer, and they pissed off their lead customer. Now they lost their foothold in North America and are likely toast here for the foreseeable future.

It comes down to $$$. Washington DOT expects their long term cost of ownership will be significantly less with the Ventures, although they could probably get those Wisconsin sets at fire sale prices at this point.

 

[John Bredin]

So any speculation on who'll take the Wisconsin sets? Amtrak, to run one of the corridor development plan routes, once they can get one going? North Carolina, with its expansion plans and willingness to use non-standard equipment?

It would be an irony of ironies if they ended up back in Wisconsin for the expanded Hiawatha service, as Wisconsin has agreed to pony up for (IIRC) two new trainsets, but I would imagine Wisconsin will merely add onto the California/Midwest trainset order.

 

[zephyr17]

I think there is a distinct possibility they may never go into service.

 

[Cal]

I think there is a distinct possibility they may never go into service.

Wouldn't surprise me. It's a shame, I'll probably never be able to take a ride on them. Maybe they'll be able to go to some operator similar to Brightline (if one pops up).

 

[JWM]

Supposedly the advantage of the Talgos was their ability to tilt on curves thereby enabling higher speeds. The technology is now old and the equipment not very cost effective as you can't add or subtract cars as I recall. They are Spanish designed and usually operated on non high speed lines by RENFE in Spain. The new Venture train sets are the future for short and medium distance Amtrak service. The Eugene-Vancouver route is notoriously full of curves and, frankly, needs a total redo to be truly viable.

 

[cocojacoby]

The technology is now old and the equipment not very cost effective . . .

Talgo is very successful selling that "old" technology around the world.

 

[jis]

So any speculation on who'll take the Wisconsin sets? Amtrak, to run one of the corridor development plan routes, once they can get one going?

Very very unlikely. Unlikely enough to almost state, "it won't".

North Carolina, with its expansion plans and willingness to use non-standard equipment?

North Carolina is moving away from non-standard equipment to standard Amtrak corridor equipment. They have stated so a few times now. So they will pretty much be some variant of the Amfleet I replacements train sets based on Venture and Charger.

It would be an irony of ironies if they ended up back in Wisconsin for the expanded Hiawatha service, as Wisconsin has agreed to pony up for (IIRC) two new trainsets, but I would imagine Wisconsin will merely add onto the California/Midwest trainset order.

Wisconsin will most likely simply go with add-on order. Why on earth would they wish to take on the additional cost of setting up a separate infrastructure for maintaining two odd ball sets? Does not make any business sense at all.

 

[Cal]

Supposedly the advantage of the Talgos was their ability to tilt on curves thereby enabling higher speeds. The technology is now old and the equipment not very cost effective as you can't add or subtract cars as I recall. They are Spanish designed and usually operated on non high speed lines by RENFE in Spain. The new Venture train sets are the future for short and medium distance Amtrak service. The Eugene-Vancouver route is notoriously full of curves and, frankly, needs a total redo to be truly viable.

The route looks fairly straight to me: of course there are points that could be better but overall it looks pretty good

 

[cirdan]

Talgo is very successful selling that "old" technology around the world.

Talgo doesn't really sell equipment but they sell it as part of a broader service and maintenance contract.

A Talgo train is very different to maintain than any conventional type of train and requires totally different facilities and skills. Talgo's business model relies on keeping things that way and on locking in customers. This is a business model that may suit many customers who want to operate trains as a service and are happy if somebody else handles the maintenance side of things. But if Talgo does not display very clearly that they are dedicated to remaining in the North American market long-term, nobody will want their trains any more, whether new or second hand. Probably not even if given away for free.

 

[cirdan]

They are Spanish designed and usually operated on non high speed lines by RENFE in Spain.

True. But the non high speed system in Spain does include quite a few bits of running at 125mph. Which outside of Spain would probably count as high speed, or at least higher speed.

 

[TrackWalker]

Did the original streamliners and electromotive locomotives operate with mechanical personnel from the manufacturers?

 

[zephyr17]

Supposedly the advantage of the Talgos was their ability to tilt on curves thereby enabling higher speeds. The technology is now old and the equipment not very cost effective as you can't add or subtract cars as I recall. They are Spanish designed and usually operated on non high speed lines by RENFE in Spain. The new Venture train sets are the future for short and medium distance Amtrak service. The Eugene-Vancouver route is notoriously full of curves and, frankly, needs a total redo to be truly viable.

There is talk now about building a new high speed rail corridor. Serious discussions only really just started, so that is decades away.

BNSF and UP aren't going to redo their route for passenger trains. They have taken money to add capacity, double tracking near Golden Shores in Seattle, triple tracking around Kalama, siding near Oregon City, etc. The route even as it stands is very viable, it had very good ridership prior to the pandemic and was at least closing on being the leading passenger carrier SEA-PDX.

The tilt feature was for passenger comfort, not operating safety. The Horizon car temporary replacements have been certified by BNSF to operate at Talgo speeds. I imagine the Ventures will be as well. The main difference is the passengers will feel more centripetal force pushing them to the outside of curves than in the Talgos. The speed restriction difference was typically only 2-3 mph and only on curves. I don't think I know of any place where the difference was more than 5 mph.

 

[zephyr17]

The route looks fairly straight to me: of course there are points that could be better but overall it looks pretty good

Parts of it are very curvy, particularly between Mt. Vernon and Bellingham. But I would never want it straightened and moved away from the Sound there.

It also has stretches of very straight track as well, particularly around Tangent, OR, which got its name from the long tangent there.

 

[TrackWalker]

...The speed restriction difference was typically only 2-3 mph and only on curves. I don't think I know of any place where the difference was more than 5 mph.

 

[zephyr17]

View attachment 24743

Well, I haven't looked at all speed boards on the route.

 

[Willbridge]

Parts of it are very curvy, particularly between Mt. Vernon and Bellingham. But I would never want it straightened and moved away from the Sound there.

It also has stretches of very straight track as well, particularly around Tangent, OR, which got its name from the long tangent there.

The segment through Tangent used to be the only place in Oregon that made it into the Trains magazine annual speed survey. The Shasta Daylight was the train that did it. Then the UP was rebuilt around Boardman for the Columbia dam projects and the SP began strangling the passenger service and Tangent lost the title.

One of the multimodal projects that ODOT identified early on is to redo the Willamette River crossing south of Tangent near Harrisburg. The SP and the Oregon Electric and old US99E all make abrupt turns to line up with bridges. The Talgos have to slow down there as does everything else.

 

[Mark P]

Taking the Cascades train from PDX to SEA in December...I see there are three Cascades trains that day (500, 504, 508) and one Coast Starlight (14). Is there any way to know which of the Cascades trains will be Talgo and which will be Horizon? I have a business class upgrade to use and I like the business car on the Talgo because of the 1x2 seating. Do the Horizon cars even have a distinct business class or is it just a dedicated car?

 

[NSC1109]

Taking the Cascades train from PDX to SEA in December...I see there are three Cascades trains that day (500, 504, 508) and one Coast Starlight (14). Is there any way to know which of the Cascades trains will be Talgo and which will be Horizon? I have a business class upgrade to use and I like the business car on the Talgo because of the 1x2 seating. Do the Horizon cars even have a distinct business class or is it just a dedicated car?

I believe there used to be a business class car in the Horizon fleet but I’m not sure if they’re still around. Haven’t seen any in Michigan for quite some time. Biz always is in the Amfleet Cafe car.

No, there is no way to know ahead of time if you’re the average consumer. If you do a little research in the days leading up to the trip to see what cars are used, that might be able to give you some sort of hint. The only way I know of that would for sure tell you is knowing someone at Amtrak you could ask and even then they probably won’t know until a couple days before because of equipment availability, etc.

 

[Cal]

Taking the Cascades train from PDX to SEA in December...I see there are three Cascades trains that day (500, 504, 508) and one Coast Starlight (14). Is there any way to know which of the Cascades trains will be Talgo and which will be Horizon? I have a business class upgrade to use and I like the business car on the Talgo because of the 1x2 seating. Do the Horizon cars even have a distinct business class or is it just a dedicated car?

Maybe @Triley can help.

 

[cocojacoby]

View attachment 24743

What is the difference between the angled and horizontal sign placement?

 

[TrackWalker]

BNSF Standards-
Angled signs are the two mile advance warning.
Horizontal signs are the current speed for that location.

 

[cocojacoby]

Thanks!

 

[Triley]

Taking the Cascades train from PDX to SEA in December...I see there are three Cascades trains that day (500, 504, 508) and one Coast Starlight (14). Is there any way to know which of the Cascades trains will be Talgo and which will be Horizon? I have a business class upgrade to use and I like the business car on the Talgo because of the 1x2 seating. Do the Horizon cars even have a distinct business class or is it just a dedicated car?

I believe there used to be a business class car in the Horizon fleet but I’m not sure if they’re still around. Haven’t seen any in Michigan for quite some time. Biz always is in the Amfleet Cafe car.

The Horizons are running with the split business class/Cafes as well. Seating is extremely limited however. It is 1x2 seating, but there are only 4 single seaters, and 5 doubles.

As of right now, only one Talgo set is in service, and is currently running 503/508 every day. Once the other Talgo set gets repaired and is back in service, then both 503/508 and 505/500 will likely be the trains running with Talgos....until a daily train resumes running to Canada. That train is expected to be Talgo, and I'm honestly not sure what the other one will be, at this time. 505/500 makes most sense due to higher ridership, but they prefer to have the Talgos back in Seattle every night.

In summary? We just don't know what trains will be running Talgo, as it depends on when Canada service resumes, as well as repairs to the other Series 8 set are complete.

 

[Maglev]

One of the Talgo VI Bistro Cars, with the map of the Northwest Coast on the ceiling, has made it to a museum in Washington:

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/pa...Lxo7oBe3axSwgZGPMSCp2KdA5IS5skuP4VEHZzRCqyvms