You know Amtrak's "kindergarten walk" is ridiculous when

[Bob Dylan]

I dislike the Congressional micro-management of Amtrak also , but on this one I think ji's analysis is spot on!

 

[Ryan]

I hardly think that ordering an evaluation is on par with micromanaging. They aren't telling them to change - only to evaluate and justify, if you will, their current policy.

Are they providing funding for that evaluation?

Of course it also helps if the legislature has any credibility at all about anything.

Sadly, this legislature has no credibility whatsoever.

Anyhow, for this reason I am unwilling to rule out taking matters to the legislature under all circumstances.

Nor am I. In the circumstance of a legislature that doesn't suck, going to them is the right thing to do. But sadly, I don't trust them to not screw it up like they've managed to screw up just about everything in every action (and inaction) they take.

 

[user 1215]

I think to jis' point, if they managed themselves well enough the congress wouldn't have to.

 

[neroden]

I don't. Congress needs to learn to keep their hands off the stupid micromanaging, especially if they're not going to provide adequate funding. Crappy micromanagement is still crappy, even if we happen to agree with what they claim they're trying to accomplish.

This is in no way a defense of the crappy boarding process, that needs to be fixed, but not by a meddling bunch of idiots.

In my experience, this particular form of micro-management raises its head when it is found by many that the management bureaucracy is non-responsive for whatever reason. It is not at all unusual to have such issues taken to legislatures in various states after the well meaning advocates have bashed their heads bloody against a non-responsive bureaucracy. The Amtrak bureaucracy is answerable only to the federal legislature, so I personally don't see anything wrong with such things coming up in the legislature provided other paths of getting the attention of the bureaucracy have been exhausted.

Same reason there was a law requiring Amtrak to "study" carrying pets. Because Amtrak management was being bullheaded & stupid about it.

I have to agree, this part of the bill is a good idea.

 

[PRR 60]

This is not a "GOP" bill. It was introduced to the Transportation Committee by four representatives - two Republican and two Democrat, and was described by members on both sides of the aisle as bipartisan.

Politico

 

[PRR 60]

I would add this about "micromanaging."

One needs to look no further than Amtrak's miserable progress toward ADA compliance to see how poorly managed the organization is. While stations stay noncompliant for years on end lacking just a simple ramp or curb cut with Amtrak crying "poor", Amtrak management is able to find $2 million to rehab a Viewliner prototype sleeper into an executive boondoggle, er, I mean "inspection" car. If it takes Congressional "micromanaging" to whack Amtrak into doing the right thing for ADA, boarding procedures, or anything else, then so be it.

As long as the taxpayers are funding Amtrak to the tune of well over $1 billion per year, Congress and DOT has every right to tell Amtrak what to do.

 

[neroden]

I would add this about "micromanaging."

One needs to look no further than Amtrak's miserable progress toward ADA compliance to see how poorly managed the organization is.

Honestly, I'm willing to cut Amtrak quite a lot of slack on the structural retrofits for ADA compliance, largely because I have some knowledge of what a pain it is to retrofit buildings *you don't own*. Amtrak has mentioned this more than once in its reports, including a description of an *18-month delay* which required a *lawsuit* just to get the landlord to talk to them.
Since the arrival of Boardman, Amtrak really has been trying. The 17 worst stations (no step-free access from street to train) are all in progress. Of those, 5 were delayed because PA said they would fund major rebuilds and then didn't have funding, 1 caught up in a similar project in DE, and 2 caught up in similar projects in CT. Amtrak seems to have managed to finalize arrangements with UP because the 3 on UP tracks will be built in FY15. The remainder are 3 on CSX, 1 on Buckingham Branch, 1 in Vermont, and Westerly, RI. (The station list is from the OIG report oig-a-2014-010.pdf .) One of the things which is happening is that a lot of states and localities are trying to completely replace their stations, and it obviously seems like a poor use of money to upgrade a station which will be demolished soon.

(Speaking of ADA status, the Newark DE project got delayed AGAIN by the Delaware Legislature cutting the funding. http://www.newarkpostonline.com/news/article_9ff2a492-0af4-583d-9b54-8f8cf3e8665b.html Delaware owns the station. Faced with this sort of behavior from its partners, Amtrak might be well advised to discontinue stops at Newark, DE in order to satisfy its legal requirements.)

Amtrak did treat ADA considerations completely cavalierly and irresponsibly prior to Boardman's arrival, and I think we can heap tons of blame for that on Graham Claytor, Thomas Downs, George Warrington, David Gunn, David Hughes, Alex Kummant, and Alexander Crosbie. Yes, even the popular Claytor and Gunn completely ignored the legal mandate, even on stations owned by Amtrak. (Boardman got those stations done fast.) They didn't even *start* planning. And they don't have the excuse that station replacement was planned in the near future, because back in 1992 or 2003, it generally wasn't. Gunn in particular should have known better.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Speaking of the ADA why were the mobile lifts deemed non-compliant? If I understand correctly despite the lifts Amtrak is now required to repave every platform at every station that doesn't meet the latest ADA requirements. I get the feeling that ADA compliance is a perpetually moving target at this point. Amtrak could spend hundreds of millions making the whole network compliant today and in a year or two there would be a whole new set of directives that required millions more. At this point I wonder how long it is before Amtrak runs out of time and is forced to discontinue some stops completely because they cannot afford to upgrade every single stop to make it compliant with the ADA's perfection-or-nothing sledgehammer approach.

 

[jis]

Unless you keep doing that how will all the planners, designers and builders children be put through school and college? Juuuust kidding.

 

[neroden]

Speaking of the ADA why were the mobile lifts deemed non-compliant? If I understand correctly despite the lifts Amtrak is now required to repave every platform at every station that doesn't meet the latest ADA requirements. I get the feeling that ADA compliance is a perpetually moving target at this point.

Well, if you don't even try to meet the 1990 standards for 20 years, don't be surprised when standards change.

Amtrak could spend hundreds of millions making the whole network compliant today and in a year or two there would be a whole new set of directives that required millions more.

No. 20 years? Yeah probably.

 

[Berlin]

This article was specific to the NEC, but in fact the Kindergarten Walk is used across the country. NYP is the only station that I can think of that has platform space limitations.

Washington's platforms are woefully insufficient.

The platforms are insufficiently wide at NYP, WAS, CHI...and the list goes on...unless and until that situation can be rectified, the "madness" must continue. One of the key things ignored in the hubbub about the boarding process is exactly that. On top of it, they have photographs of European stations along with the main article I read, but the stations photographed ALL have half a dozen or more points of entry, where nearly all of the US stations cited have exactly one.

 

[neroden]

Chicago platforms are plenty wide enough for intercity train traffic. Given the way Amtrak actually handles the trains, there is no advantage to the crazy gate system. They already have everyone boarding the train mobbing the platform simultaneously. They already have everyone getting off the train mobbing the platform simultaneously. They never have people getting on and off the same train at the same time, because the trains all originate and terminate at Chicago...

 

[Alice]

Speaking of the ADA why were the mobile lifts deemed non-compliant? If I understand correctly despite the lifts Amtrak is now required to repave every platform at every station that doesn't meet the latest ADA requirements. I get the feeling that ADA compliance is a perpetually moving target at this point.

Well, if you don't even try to meet the 1990 standards for 20 years, don't be surprised when standards change.

Amtrak could spend hundreds of millions making the whole network compliant today and in a year or two there would be a whole new set of directives that required millions more.

No. 20 years? Yeah probably.

I actually think in time (and I mean a long time) access will be achieved by providing people with different technology than wheelchairs. Here is an example. A few years ago, you could buy an iBot wheelchair, a gyroscope-leveled chair that could handle curbs easily and staircases somewhat. It would also work on grass, gravel, steep slopes, etc. It would break stair tread that extended past the riser and tear up carpet so wasn't good in apartments, but was fine on concrete or marble found in corporate and government buildings. It was huge so wouldn't fit under a standard table. It cost $20,000 and VA was the only insurance that covered it. People who have them love them and a whole lot more were waiting for them to advance to where they'd work in more situations, and were upset when Johnson&Johnson pulled the plug a few years ago. Eventually wheelchair design will advance to solve these and other issues.

It might not be politically palatable, but it would be less expensive to equip everyone who can't climb stairs with their own stair-climbing device, than to eliminate all stairs.

The same goes for other access rules. I think adapting each person as needed is a better solution than trying to adapt the world, and believe eventually that will be practical.

As for those hand-cranked lifts, I don't know the compliance issues, but would think Amtrak would like to get rid of them anyway because they are slow and labor intensive. It is possible Amtrak wants to use ADA funding for work they want to do anyway. This is pretty common, I saw a pretty stretched justification for using ADA funding for a new roof once, bundled with a new ramp and remodeled bathrooms.

 

[neroden]

The IBot is wonderful, but... development on that sort of tech is slow, really really slow, and may never actually be practical.

Meanwhile, getting rid of stairs has numerous collateral benefits, as London has discovered with people with strollers and rolling luggage.

 

[PerRock]

This article was specific to the NEC, but in fact the Kindergarten Walk is used across the country. NYP is the only station that I can think of that has platform space limitations.

Washington's platforms are woefully insufficient.

The platforms are insufficiently wide at NYP, WAS, CHI...and the list goes on...unless and until that situation can be rectified, the "madness" must continue. One of the key things ignored in the hubbub about the boarding process is exactly that. On top of it, they have photographs of European stations along with the main article I read, but the stations photographed ALL have half a dozen or more points of entry, where nearly all of the US stations cited have exactly one.

Most European stations I was in, when I traveled around Europe a few years ago, at most had 2 entry points to the platforms. Most only had one, and very few had 3. Come to think of it, I can't think of any that had 3; and only a few that had 2. I'll admit that the platforms at CHI (& I think NYP, it's been a while since I've been on the platforms there) are pretty narrow. But CHI handles Metra commuter traffic on those platforms just as fine. And Amtrak's boarding procedure there does nothing to effect how many people are boarding or disembarking at one time. Once they allow people onto the platform everyone is allowed out, they don't do procedural boarding (like boarding per destination).

peter

 

[MattW]

They could eliminate, or at least mitigate the large crush by letting people pick their seats before they board. I know I don't want to be the last one in line and get stuck with some tray table-less, windowless seat so of course I'm going to try to be the first one in line, along with everyone else trying to be the first one in line.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The IBot is wonderful, but... development on that sort of tech is slow, really really slow, and may never actually be practical.

Meanwhile, getting rid of stairs has numerous collateral benefits, as London has discovered with people with strollers and rolling luggage.

Back in the day when I was pushing a stroller (24 yrs ago), I benefitted from the ramps & door openers. I did wonder why some sidewalk cutouts were not near the entrances to some places (like at a mall).

 

[rickycourtney]

...even our dysfunctional members of congress are demanding it be looked into.

From the Passenger Rail Reform and Reinvestment Act of 2014:

Sec. 211. Amtrak boarding procedures

(a) Report—
Not later than 6 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Amtrak Office of Inspector General shall transmit to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate a report that—

(1) evaluates Amtrak’s boarding procedures at its 10 stations through which the most people pass;
(2) compares Amtrak’s boarding procedures to—

(A) commuter railroad boarding procedures at stations shared with Amtrak;
(B) international intercity passenger rail boarding procedures; and
© fixed guideway transit boarding procedures; and

(3) makes recommendations, as appropriate, to improve Amtrak’s boarding procedures, including recommendations regarding the queuing of passengers and free-flow of all station-users.

(b) Consideration of recommendations—
Not later than 6 months after the release of the report required under subsection (a), the Amtrak Board of Directors shall consider each recommendation provided under subsection (a)(3) for implementation across the Amtrak system.

The bill is unlikely to pass, but we now know that congress (or at least their staffers) are tired of Amtrak's boarding procedures. Maybe this shot across the bow will be enough to make Amtrak look into the matter (before they're legally required to).

For those interested in such things, here are the top 10 busiest stations in FY 2013:

• New York, NY
• Washington, DC
• Philadelphia, PA
• Chicago, IL
• Los Angeles, CA
• Boston South Station, MA
• Sacramento, CA
• Baltimore, MD
• Albany-Rensselaer, NY
• New Haven, CT

I know that NYP, WAS, PHL, CHI & BOS use either gate dragons or some form of the kindergarten walk as a part of the boarding procedure. But at both LAX and SAC, Amtrak has been forced to stop using those procedures. Passengers are now allowed to wait for their train on the platform. As far as I can tell, the world didn't end and no trains left the station without any passengers.

 

[NS]

This nonsense is exactly why I prefer to board in New Carrollton, MD instead of Washington, DC. Way too many Amtrak staff (and police) prancing around and puffing out their chests. Enough already.

 

[Ryan]

Discussed extensively here:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/59377-vox-amtraks-insane-boarding-procedures-explained/

MODERATOR COMMENT: THIS TOPIC WAS MERGED INTO THE ONE REFERENCED IN THIS POST.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.

 

[MattW]

I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.

None because that won't happen.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

My use of stations like NYP, WAS, and CHI is impacted by the absurd boarding procedures that penalize self sufficiency in favor of patronizing micromanagement. I understand that if you live in the area it's something you just put up with because you have no choice. For those of us who do not live in the area the experience of being treated like a child can leave a lasting negative impression.

I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.

What are you talking about?

 

[SarahZ]

I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.

In Chicago, the monitors show which gate to use, and then the gate has a digital sign next to it with the train number, the name of the train, and the major destination cities. It's a lot like an airport.

Plus, when you get to the train, the car attendant usually checks your ticket before you board.

 

[haolerider]

This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!