You know Amtrak's "kindergarten walk" is ridiculous when

[Barciur]

Yeah, all kinds of platforms like Coatesville, PA, Parkesburg, PA etc come to mind. And better yet - try gating stations shared by commuter rail and Amtrak, like SEPTA stations - Exton, PA. That's something that will not happen and I'm pretty glad about it - I like the ability to get on a train and buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

As for the discussion about Europe, in both Poland and Germany you can get on any platform you want without being asked for a ticket, railfan's dream! That's how great videos of international trains consisting of cars from 5 different countries come into play. And it's great - I love that system the most.

 

[HAL]

I would love it to see conductors continue to collect tickets on the train , but I think Amtrak plans to do away with that.... if they can.... and have the tickets scanned at gates of some kind.

They can't, not in 50 years. Try to put gates at Williston, ND, at Utica, NY, even at Denver, CO. Good luck trying. Not gonna happen.

If you can't gate 99% of the stations, trying to gate a couple of 'em is madness.

Sure, maybe they'd like to gate everything. But it's grossly impractical.

None have been talking about gating every station. We have been discussing major stations like New York and Washington.

 

[neroden]

There's really very little point to gating some stations and not others. It's madness. If you don't gate every station on a route, then you still have to have the conductor check ALL the tickets on board the train (including those for people who got on at 'gated' stations), so basically, it's a gigantic waste of money and manpower to do a duplicate check of the tickets beforehand.

But go ahead, advocate for Amtrak to waste large amounts of money and manpower on useless, redundant, make-work activity which delays trains. I don't think anyone in Congress will support that.

 

[afigg]

The LA system is absolutely how it should work. That's the standard "open system". (The alternative, the standard "closed system", is to do it like the NYC Subway, with turnstiles everywhere, and that's not going to happen because nobody will do it at the rural stations.)

Hopefully fools like HAL will have no influence on Amtrak's future planning in this regard.

And HAL?

- Chicago cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of Metra (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever), particularly the platform which leads to the Ogilvie exit

- NY Penn cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of LIRR and NJT (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever, and people often do)

- DC cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of MARC and VRE

- Boston cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of the MBTA

The LA Metro Red and Purple lines switched to a gate system a year or more ago IIRC.

As for NYP, Amtrak would only need to install gates at the current Amtrak boarding area and the expanded West End concourse (which is the future boarding area for Moynihan station). Amtrak puts the gate dragons only at their entrances, so why would they have to install gate scanners at the NJT and LIRR platform entrances? When the gate on the West End Concourse is being used for boarding a LIRR train, the gate can be left open or the scanners ignored. Same goes for VRE or MARC at WAS. Don't use the scanners or have a gate dragon when boarding the MARC and VRE trains.

I think we underestimate here the need for crowd control and the number of passengers who might get on the wrong Amtrak train or without a ticket if there was not a ticket check. Especially at the crowded and confusing NYP. I have seen this when a woman got on at Trenton and sat next to me while I was a Regional headed to NYP. The conductor showed up only a couple of minutes later and she pulled out a NJT ticket. Apparently she was confused and did not realize that this was not a NJT train despite the numerous Amtrak logos. The Conductor was rather brusque with her and ordered her to go to the cafe car where she would have to get off at the next stop, which IIRC, was Metropark. She looked confused, but got up and walked in the direction of the cafe car. I suspect this is a common occurrence for the ticket takers on the NEC.

If someone gets on an southbound Amtrak train at NYP with the wrong ticket or a train heading in the wrong direction, their ticket may not get checked until after Newark. The next stop might be Trenton, so they could get stuck in Trenton while straightening out their trip. If someone gets on the wrong commuter train, usually it not far to the next stop and the passenger can get off and figure out how to get to where they were originally going. There is also the possibility of someone doing this intentionally, buying a NJT, SEPTA ticket and getting on an Acela or Regional, claiming ignorance when the conductor comes to scan the ticket, so they can get a more comfortable and faster ride to the next Amtrak stop.

It is not cost effective to check tickets at the gate at all the NEC stations. But since NYP, WAS, PHL, BOS have such a high volume and a lot of station staff, they can reduce the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or without a ticket by checking at those stations.

Now Amtrak can certainly improve the boarding process at NYP, WAS, PHL. Especially at NYP, with working displays at the gate, a scanner on each side to get people through more quickly and allow boarding from 2 locations once the expanded West End Concourse opens.

 

[neroden]

It is not cost effective to check tickets at the gate at all the NEC stations.

You had three extra words in that sentence: let me fix it for you.
It is not cost effective to check tickets at the gate at all.

But since NYP, WAS, PHL, BOS have such a high volume and a lot of station staff, they can reduce the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or without a ticket by checking at those stations.

Not really. I'd like to see a controlled study demonstrating that this has any reduction in the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or boarding without a ticket. I simply don't believe it. It's fiction.
Obviously there are plenty of passengers getting on the wrong train *with* the current gate dragons, and (duh) they board through the *ungated* commuter rail entrances to the platforms. If you want to prevent this, you have to gate the COMMUTER RAIL entrances... and that's what I said originally.

You can't create a gated station unless the commuter rail operators at the same station agree to it.

You can have an "open system" (walk up to the platform, tickets checked on the train), with "POP" being one variant of that -- that works fine. Or you can have a "closed system" (gatelines at every station) -- that works fine too.

You shouldn't have some sort of hybrid, it doesn't work right and wastes money. (London, UK has a couple of stations which are hybrids for historical reasons. They are generally acknowledged to be sources of constant revenue loss, but London tolerates the loss because they're too hard to retrofit.)

LA Metro converted the Red/Purple lines from an open system to a closed system pretty much *in one go*; they didn't gate some stations and leave others ungated.

"Gates" in an open system (such as are found in parts of England) are mainly to prevent gawkers from wandering around the platforms; they don't really check the tickets in any real sense, they just check that you have some kind of ticket. To do that, they have to check *everyone* entering the platform; this is enabled by a standardized national ticketing system in the UK. But Amtrak tickets, LIRR tickets, and NJT tickets aren't the same....

 

[user 1215]

Even on Shinkansen routes in Japan, in addition to DOUBLE gating, there are conductors onboard to check the tickets. And every Shinkansen station is gated (only double gated where there is additional "local" traffic.

 

[OBS]

I can give you my one person controlled study...I have spent many hours in the Acela boarding area, when Acela's were boarding. Literally every train I have observed has had people turned away by the usher because they either had regional tickets, or they had a ticket for a different Acela and either did not know or couldn't (sold out) change their ticket and wanted to board anyway. And this is just one station, Wash. DC.

 

[user 1215]

Yes. Many of us humans are extremely selfish and think there is no reason in the world why someone else should have a seat on a train instead of them.

 

[PerRock]

There's really very little point to gating some stations and not others. It's madness. If you don't gate every station on a route, then you still have to have the conductor check ALL the tickets on board the train (including those for people who got on at 'gated' stations), so basically, it's a gigantic waste of money and manpower to do a duplicate check of the tickets beforehand.

But go ahead, advocate for Amtrak to waste large amounts of money and manpower on useless, redundant, make-work activity which delays trains. I don't think anyone in Congress will support that.

Except that Amtrak already does this, that is the problem. At most of these larger stations, your ticket is checked by a gate agent in the station, then again on board the train by the conductor.

peter

 

[jis]

There are various ways of handling the ticket/boarding pass.

Airlines universally have the ticket "lifted" and a boarding pass issued when you check in. The Boarding Pass is "lifted" at the boarding gate (usually) i.e. recorded as used, and that is the end of it.

In case of trains, predominantly, the ticket is "lifted" i.e. marked as used, during a check on board the train.

However there are a few large modes of operations where this is not the case.

One is where the ticket has to be validated when you board, and in effect gets "lifted" at validation, in the sens e that it cannot be used beyond the parameters set by the validation - either a specific time window or a specific train to a specific destination which must be boarded within a time window or some such.

This ticket may be further "lifted" on board the train or not. It may also be checked without being further "lifted" - POP checking being one variation of this.

I believe Amtrak will continue to do the final "lifting" of the ticket on board for the foreseeable future.

What is done at the gates is just reading the ticket to verify that the holder is at the right place. Some Amtrak Conductors insist on lifting the ticket at the gate or at the car door. Usually when the ticket is "lifted" off the train a piece of paper or something akin to a boarding card - airline style - is given to the passenger sometimes with a seat assigned.

In Japan and in UK the ticket gates merely ensure that only ticket holders of the right category gain access to the protected area. They usually do not "lift" the ticket specially for non commuter trains. For commuter trains they may validate with a time stamp rendering the ticket unusable beyond a time window from that point on. For trains specially with reservation, usually the ticket would be cheeked again on board.

 

[user 1215]

In Japan and in UK the ticket gates merely ensure that only ticket holders of the right category gain access to the protected area. They usually do not "lift" the ticket specially for non commuter trains. For commuter trains they may validate with a time stamp rendering the ticket unusable beyond a time window from that point on. For trains specially with reservation, usually the ticket would be cheeked again on board.

Well, I would say that in Japan (don't know about the UK) the ticket is lifted when you put it in the gate. You keep your ticket until you get off the train at your destination and as you exit the station, your ticket is verified for the distance (rail fare) is valid.

In the case of NFC tickets (Suica, etc), you scan where you start, you scan where you end, and the fare is deducted from your account.

Washington DC has a very similar ticketing system, except you can't buy a ticket from point A to B - you have to preload your ticket and if you have money left when you're done, too bad.

 

[jis]

Yeah, I forgot that mode, which is how most RFID cards work at gated stations, or even at ungated ones. For example Croydon Tramlink there are no gates but you have to tap on and tap off. It is POP, so fare checkers simply verify that you tapped on from some credible place at some credible time. If you forget to tap off you get charged some max fare after the time window on the tap on expires.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[afigg]

Not really. I'd like to see a controlled study demonstrating that this has any reduction in the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or boarding without a ticket. I simply don't believe it. It's fiction.

Obviously there are plenty of passengers getting on the wrong train *with* the current gate dragons, and (duh) they board through the *ungated* commuter rail entrances to the platforms. If you want to prevent this, you have to gate the COMMUTER RAIL entrances... and that's what I said originally.

You can't create a gated station unless the commuter rail operators at the same station agree to it.

I was not writing about creating a gated system where the ticket is "lifted" at the gate. The purpose of the checks at the gates at NYP, WAS, PHL, BOS, etc is to verify that those boarding the train through the main path have valid and correct tickets. The goal is to sharply reduce the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or not having a valid ticket. Most people who are aware of the other entrances to the platforms at NYP from the NJT and LIRR areas are also far more likely to be knowledgeable about Amtrak travel and have a valid eticket. A 100% closed system with pre-boarding checks at all of the stations on the NEC and connecting corridors is too expensive. And very difficult to implement with the multiple commuter train services and legacy stations.

But pre-boarding checks at the busiest stations which are the most confusing to navigate cut down on the number of passengers getting on the wrong train. Because intercity train travel is not routine for a lot of people, even along the NEC, from my observations, Amtrak gets a lot of passengers who don't know the differences between the trains, get confused, or don't understand that unlike a commuter train, the trains are mostly reserved. I have seen many confused passengers not sure of which line to get into or what to do in my travels through NYP and WAS.

NYP with its mix of Acelas, Regionals, Keystones, LD trains along with LIRR and NJT combined with the complicated concourse layout and the growth in daily passenger traffic over the past several decades results in many confused newbie passengers who could easily end up on the wrong train. NYP badly needs to install working displays at the Amtrak platform entrances and improve the wayfinding signs through the station. WAS has too small a waiting area for the current passenger volume from Amtrak, MARC, and VRE because too much of DC Union Station was turned over to retail or repurposed back in the 1980s. They need to hurry up and build the planned expanded waiting and boarding area over the lower level tracks with rebuilt wider platforms (some high level) for those tracks, but where the money will come from for that, don't know.

I think the plan is to install PIDs (Passenger Information Display) along the platforms for all the stations on the NEC and I would expect the stations on the connecting corridors. Those will help to keep people from the boarding the wrong train or missing their train. Amtrak can use the ADA compliance funds to pay for the PIDs, but with all the stakeholders at the different stations and upgrade plans for this or that stations, it is a long slow process to install better displays system wide.

 

[afigg]

Washington DC has a very similar ticketing system, except you can't buy a ticket from point A to B - you have to preload your ticket and if you have money left when you're done, too bad.

For DC Metro, you can still buy a paper ticket with the exact amount needed plus the $1 per trip paper ticket surcharge. The hard part is figuring out what the exact amount is, with the overly complex pricing structure. The SmarTrip cards are still $10 with $2 of that for the card and $8 for fares.
WMATA has started on a technology upgrade for their fare system. All of the ticket vending machines will be modified to dispense SmarTrip cards with user able to select the exact amount loaded on the card plus, yes, the $2 charge for the card. The paper tickets are being phased out. The most significant upgrade is to allow direct payments at the faregates (entering and exiting) from credit cards and smartphones, although the credit cards and smartphones with the right technology are not widely available yet (in the US).

But Amtrak just upgraded to eTickets. They have a full plate of technology and IT upgrades from what I can tell, before they start considering wireless eTicket validations from credit cards, smartphones, or embedded RIFF tags in our heads. (I joking about the last one, well, sort of.)

 

[user 1215]

I once drew up an awesome fare chart like they do in Japan and posted it to forums.railfan.net, but they went back and purged all the photos before 2007. I don't have the computer I saved it on anymore.

 

[PaulM]

The ony place I recall tickets collected on the train by the conductor was I think, Norway.

As of a month ago, the only trains in Austria and Germany where ticket were NOT scanned on the train were the S-bahns (commuter trains), which employ the honor system.

 

[neroden]

NYP badly needs to install working displays at the Amtrak platform entrances and improve the wayfinding signs through the station.

You can say that again, and that applies to every station. Better signage would go a long way.

I think the plan is to install PIDs (Passenger Information Display) along the platforms for all the stations on the NEC and I would expect the stations on the connecting corridors. Those will help to keep people from the boarding the wrong train or missing their train.

Very good idea.

Amtrak can use the ADA compliance funds to pay for the PIDs,

I believe they're considered an ADA requirement (to help the deaf, mostly). They benefit everyone, though.

but with all the stakeholders at the different stations and upgrade plans for this or that stations, it is a long slow process to install better displays system wide.

You would think that installing better signage would not be that difficult; it's not like coordinating plans for installing elevators.

 

[Barciur]

I am currently sat on a westbound Keystone. A person in front of me is headed... to New York. R

The conductor who informed him of this fact specifically said "you are not the first person, I already caught a few people in the other car who got on the wrong train."

Looks like the gate dragons are doing a great job doesnt it...

 

[PerRock]

I wonder how many people get on the wrong train on Metra, or any of the other Commuter Railroads on average?

peter

 

[neroden]

What would be more useful than gate dragons would be big LED signage on the sides of the trains. (Something overlooked when designing the Viewliners, but it probably matters more for coaches anyway.)