Texas High Speed Rail

[PVD]

Airtrain to JFK is like that. It's only a few miles, but it certainly has been done nere.

 

[Anderson]

Actually, the Texas Supreme Court surprised a lot of people (likely including TC management, who quit while waiting for a ruling) by sustaining TC's right to use eminent domain.

I don't understand why people think that it would be a good idea to walk away from from the dedicated, passenger-only alignment that that's been environmentally cleared, and try to run fast, frequent service on a shared use freight line. Some public money may be required for construction but the TC route, as proposed, will be quite profitable to operate.

I still don't know why they didn't just buy a shortline somewhere and moot the "You don't run trains so you're not a railroad" nonsense.

 

[jiml]

Airtrain to JFK is like that. It's only a few miles, but it certainly has been done nere.

That's true and in fairness, the Toronto airport train is similar but also short distance. I couldn't think of any longer segments in existence or proposed.

 

[eldomtom2]

I still don't know why they didn't just buy a shortline somewhere and moot the "You don't run trains so you're not a railroad" nonsense.

Probably because the litigants had the backup argument of the likelihood of Texas Central opening.

 

[railiner]

In India it is common practice to build elevated over the median, that is the single pillar for the elevated structure is in the median, the actual track is 60 feet above, so it clears all overpasses above them. There are literally hundreds of miles of such trackage, usually mostly for Metro Transit and Regional Transit. A lot of the Mumbai Ahmedabad HSR is also like that, though not necessarily above a highway ROW.

For example, here is a segment of the Delhi - Meerut 100 mph Regional Rail Transit System

That's far too clever to imitate on this continent.

That so?
Ever ride the JFK Airtrain?

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.674..._B3RkufcZxiCpxvw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Edit: Oh...sorry, I see that someone already mentioned it...

 

[wxmeddler]

An update from North Central Texas Council of Governments rep when asked on status of TCR. Video below but here is the summary.
1. DFW area council of governments has been mostly in the dark as well, they have been in contact with TCR but can't say much more right now.
2. There will be something more formal and public coming in the next few weeks to months.
3. The project is not dead, too much investment in the corridor just to stop work.
4. Amtrak is considering submitting grant proposals for CRISI, FSP, and Corridor ID programs for the segment.

 

[George Harris]

In India it is common practice to build elevated over the median, that is the single pillar for the elevated structure is in the median, the actual track is 60 feet above, so it clears all overpasses above them. There are literally hundreds of miles of such trackage, usually mostly for Metro Transit and Regional Transit. A lot of the Mumbai Ahmedabad HSR is also like that, though not necessarily above a highway ROW.

For example, here is a segment of the Delhi - Meerut 100 mph Regional Rail Transit System

Yes, this is a very good idea, and has been recommended for a few situations in the US. There may be a couple locations in the US where such has even been built. On one in which I had some involvement we had screams from some "environmentalists" about it being a visual blight. There were also some squawks about noise, which is completely bogus. The side walls as shown in your illustration if they get to as high as floor level to slightly above block all mechanical and wheel rail noise unless you happen to be nearly straight above the line. There will be some catenary noise, but it will be less to those at ground level than having the track at grade in the median. PLUS, all these noises will be overwhelmed by road traffic noise.

 

[MrsRedlegTexian]

Couldn't they build the railway in a "trench" where necessary, to clear the existing overpass bridges? Seems like that would be cheaper, or maybe not?

There are portions that wouldn’t work because of potential flooding

 

[railiner]

There are portions that wouldn’t work because of potential flooding

If engineered to account for that, as is done in places, it would be more costly probably, but still doable...

 

[wxmeddler]

Links to the press releases on the news...

https://railpassengers.org/happenin...entral-amtrak-examine-high-speed-partnership/https://media.amtrak.com/2023/08/te...ice-opportunities-between-dallas-and-houston/

 

[eldomtom2]

Surprised nobody has posted this here yet. The shoe has dropped!

Er, did you miss the past two pages?

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Texas Central must be the best place for a do-able high speed line in the U.S. or Canada, with its two very big cities, not connected by Amtrak/VIA, and a mega college town in between. The route is mapped out, with a decent endpoint in DFW, but not one in Houston. Texas could take a cue from fellow oil state Abu Dhabi, whose sovereign wealth fund just bought 70% of Brightline's owner Fortress from Softbank (Japan). The latter had a regulatory problem in the US, and lately lost some high risk investment bets. Private (with an asterisk) and public passenger railroads do face similar financial constraints, despite us train nerds calling for electrification everywhere, and stuff like that.

Texas, like California and Louisiana, wisely invested its petro dollars in education trust funds, back in the day. To varying degrees they avoided the "resource curse," where natural resources result in a poor economy. Maybe Southwest Airlines will invest (!). Or a casino, the latest in wasteful extraction. Just what LIV Golf (Saudi Arabia) offered a few aging golfers approaches what Brightline spent from West Palm to Orlando Airport.

One other high speed line looked promising, the Washington-Baltimore maglev. Even Baltimore dropped its initial support when environmental, neighborhood, and class issues combined for total opposition. JR Rail (Japan) said it would pay for it, to get its foot in the door for a route to New York. Maglevs of course need very straight lines. The engineering is tricky. Vibrations caused a demonstration maglev at ODU in Norfolk, Virginia, to be abandoned, standing for twenty years across campus unused.

One mind change for management could learn from Brightline would be to increase staffing. Short term economics, or management biases, are not always reasonable. Also, Amtrak can't be expected to run a land office like Brightline, though ideally it offers a lot more stability.

How the money works out from the federal government is very much in play. I wince every time I read of another crazy plan from anti-passenger rail states like Tennessee and Georgia, or long distance planning now removed from Amtrak. Or maybe it will all work out. The journalism is lacking, as 49 states publish state rail plans every four years, so it's as much fairy dust as news. The one use of those documents is to see that those states subsidize freight rail projects.

 

[wxmeddler]

Er, did you miss the past two pages?

Sure did!

 

[cirdan]

That's true and in fairness, the Toronto airport train is similar but also short distance. I couldn't think of any longer segments in existence or proposed.

Doesn't CAHSR have some sections, not sure if proposed or in the segment that is under construction?

 

[jiml]

Doesn't CAHSR have some sections, not sure if proposed or in the segment that is under construction?

I did wonder about that - thought maybe proposed but a cheaper alternative was found? The new Montreal REM train has some similar sections too, but not the long-distance sections @jis had mentioned which was what prompted the initial comment.

 

[Rover]

https://www.enr.com/articles/57000-amtrak-may-revive-30b-dallas-houston-high-speed-rail-project
Amtrak is working with private developer Texas Central Partners to revive construction of a high-speed passenger train that would travel the 236 miles between Houston and Dallas in 90 minutes. However, funding for the stalled $30-billion project is unclear, as is its future. Neither Amtrak nor Texas Central have a timeline for construction.

Last week, Texas Central officials said Amtrak is working with the company to apply for federal funds to “conduct advance planning and analysis work” intended to further determine project viability, Amtrak said in a statement.

 

[frequentflyer]

https://www.enr.com/articles/57000-amtrak-may-revive-30b-dallas-houston-high-speed-rail-project
Amtrak is working with private developer Texas Central Partners to revive construction of a high-speed passenger train that would travel the 236 miles between Houston and Dallas in 90 minutes. However, funding for the stalled $30-billion project is unclear, as is its future. Neither Amtrak nor Texas Central have a timeline for construction.

Last week, Texas Central officials said Amtrak is working with the company to apply for federal funds to “conduct advance planning and analysis work” intended to further determine project viability, Amtrak said in a statement.

Well, that is depressing. More studies.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Well, that is depressing. More studies.

Do you honestly expect this Train to ever run?

If I was a betting person I'd place a Wager on "Never Happen!"

 

[cirdan]

Do you honestly expect this Train to ever run?

If I was a betting person I'd place a Wager on "Never Happen!"

optimism can be a curse.

It seems almost like a perfect storm. Two major and economically significant cities with a lot of empty space in between and no major mountain ranges or rivers to be crossed.

If this won't work, then what will?

 

[frequentflyer]

Do you honestly expect this Train to ever run?

If I was a betting person I'd place a Wager on "Never Happen!"

I thought I saw a unicorn the other day, so yes, I did think this would be built. LOL.

 

[frequentflyer]

Just wish someone explain JNR's involvement in this? What project has JNR been involved with outside of Japan? I know Alsom, Siemens and China have built systems out side their respective countries. Interest rates are high now, so Japan is not going to finance this. Just seems there could be a less costly way of getting this done.

As was mentioned if these two city pairs are not a corridor, then what is?

 

[eldomtom2]

Just wish someone explain JNR's involvement in this? What project has JNR been involved with outside of Japan? I know Alsom, Siemens and China have built systems out side their respective countries. Interest rates are high now, so Japan is not going to finance this. Just seems there could be a less costly way of getting this done.

The various companies involved with the Shinkansen (JNR was privatised in 1987) have sold Shinkansen-based systems to several other countries, including China, India, and Taiwan.

 

[MARC Rider]

optimism can be a curse.

It seems almost like a perfect storm. Two major and economically significant cities with a lot of empty space in between and no major mountain ranges or rivers to be crossed.

If this won't work, then what will?

I think the issue here is the unique cultural and political forces in Texas that make it more difficult than other states to complete public transportation projects, even if they're privately funded. I remember reading about all of the gyrations they had to do to get the DART funded and built in Dallas, and they can't seem to get San Antonio-Austin commuter rail up and running. Maybe for the Dallas-Houston Route they should forget about 180 mph Shinkansen technology and put the money into upgrading the existing freight railroad to handle both freight and 90-110 mph passenger service and run frequent trains that serve more than just a station in one of Houston's edge cities. I suspect it might be cheaper to do that, though, of course, getting the freight railroad on board might be a heavy lift, even if they are getting upgraded infrastructure for their freight trains.

 

[cirdan]

To be honest, so many phantom schemes have come and gone over the years that I have totally lost count.

These things have conditioned us to be cynical and pessimistic.

I didn't really believe Brightline was going to happen until construction actually began.

So whereas the realistic voice in me says this scheme is not going to happen, the optimistic voice is still saying, wait and see.

 

[cirdan]

I think the issue here is the unique cultural and political forces in Texas that make it more difficult than other states to complete public transportation projects, even if they're privately funded. I remember reading about all of the gyrations they had to do to get the DART funded and built in Dallas, and they can't seem to get San Antonio-Austin commuter rail up and running. Maybe for the Dallas-Houston Route they should forget about 180 mph Shinkansen technology and put the money into upgrading the existing freight railroad to handle both freight and 90-110 mph passenger service and run frequent trains that serve more than just a station in one of Houston's edge cities. I suspect it might be cheaper to do that, though, of course, getting the freight railroad on board might be a heavy lift, even if they are getting upgraded infrastructure for their freight trains.

This is true, but then the initial DART system was created several decades ago, and times have moved on.

Since then DART has expended quite significantly, with more expansion being planned. In addition, there is metro-rail in Houston, which has also expanded over the years. Then there is the TexRail. There is the A train. Soon there will also be the Cotton Belt in Dallas. Plus of course the various things going on in Austin. Not to forget two streetcar systems in Dallas and one in Galveston. There are probably not very many states outside of the East Coast and California that have more passenger rail systems than Texas. I think the cliche that you can't do passenger trains in Texas is getting increasingly dated.