The track circuit triggering issue (CN, Amtrak)

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
2,926
This is great news. I assume that the 7 will be used to finally re-equip the CL and TE, as IIRC the CL uses 3 trainsets and the TE uses 4.
Another possible less popular destination for the Sightseers is axle count service on the Illini/Saluki. While we certainly want to see the Eagle and Capitol get back a sightseer, they are currently occasionally having to use revenue Superliners for axle count on that Carbondale line and probably the CONO right now since they just had to pull the diner. While axle count Sightseers showing up on there is not going to be popular by any means, putting Sightseers/diners in that position and freeing up the coaches and sleepers is unfortunately preferable to seeing revenue cars being used for that purpose. Ultimately figuring out a shunting solution allowing the Carbondale service to shift over to Ventures and Horizons is another endpoint that's needed to get back up to normal pre pandemic operations on the Superliner trains and ensure Sightseers on all possible trains.
 
Last edited:
Another possible less popular destination for the Sightseers is axle count service on the Illini/Saluki. While we certainly want to see the Eagle and Capitol get back a sightseer, they are currently occasionally having to use revenue Superliners for axle count on that Carbondale line and probably the CONO right now since they just had to pull the diner. While axle count Sightseers showing up on there while the Eagle doesn't have one would draw angry posts and comments on the internet for sure, putting Sightseers/diners in that position and freeing up the coaches and sleepers is unfortunately preferable to seeing revenue cars being used for that purpose. Ultimately figuring out a shunting solution allowing the Carbondale service to shift over to Ventures and Horizons is another endpoint that's needed to get back up to normal pre pandemic operations on the Superliner trains and ensure Sightseers on all possible trains.
Maybe Amtrak should lease a number of extra height freight cars for use as axle count car. Afterall this is not something that is going to go away soon. It is a perennial thing and a competent management at Amtrak would have made arrangements to satisfy that need without using passenger equipment. I do fault Amtrak management in their failure to adjust to a crappy situation on this and penalizing the customers to deal with their failure to handle a situation properly.
 
Definitely a good point especially if there's no imminent solution.
Does the height of the axle count cars matter at all, or just the number of axles and (possibly) the length of the cars? Would adding one standard-length flat car be sufficient? (And much easier to find and much more available than an extra height freight car) and probably much cheaper!

At them end so they don't have to modify them to pass HEP through from the engine. Do they need any special wiring for tail lights, etc.? (I'm sure this has been covered dozens of times in the past, but I couldn't find a complete description of the requirements for an "axle count car". I suppose it depends on the particular railroad and line.)
 
Does the height of the axle count cars matter at all, or just the number of axles and (possibly) the length of the cars? Would adding one standard-length flat car be sufficient? (And much easier to find and much more available than an extra height freight car) and probably much cheaper!
Actually it is the axle load that is more important than the height I am sure since it is all about making sufficient contact with the rail so as to complete the detection circuit on poorly designed/maintained trackside equipment. I thought Amtrak already had a bunch of trainlined Material Handling Cars in storage that they could deploy with adequate number of Sand Bags loaded in them to reach the requisite axle load.
 
Last edited:
On the Carbondale line there’s also the superliner requirement which is the most problematic. On the other areas they seem to mostly be using Viewliner baggage cars. In all cases it’s usually cars that are road worthy but bad ordered for some other reason like maybe broken AC that makes them not passenger worthy. I have really never understood why the Carbondale requires Superliners while the other areas single level is fine. I am sure the long term goal is to move it over to ventures as I believe the states have bought sufficient ventures to cover it. How there still isn’t a solution to this problem is mind boggling - it shouldn’t be rocket science.
 
On the Carbondale line there’s also the superliner requirement which is the most problematic. On the other areas they seem to mostly be using Viewliner baggage cars. In all cases it’s usually cars that are road worthy but bad ordered for some other reason like maybe broken AC that makes them not passenger worthy. I have really never understood why the Carbondale requires Superliners while the other areas single level is fine. I am sure the long term goal is to move it over to ventures as I believe the states have bought sufficient ventures to cover it. How there still isn’t a solution to this problem is mind boggling - it shouldn’t be rocket science.
When I rode this line a few times a few years ago they were using old heritage baggage cars. Those are probably unusable now, though.
 
When I rode this line a few times a few years ago they were using old heritage baggage cars. Those are probably unusable now, though.
The Superliner requirement is more recent. It has to do with essentially requiring more axle load in order to actuate their broken circuit detection equipment which they seem to be incapable or unwilling to fix. The entire rest of the world is able to operate these things with four car trains, but not CN willingly or unwillingly.
 
Last edited:
The Superliner requirement is more recent. It has to do with essentially requiring more axle load in order to actuate their broken circuit detection equipment which they seem to be incapable or unwilling to fix. Then entire rest of the world is able to operate these things with four car trains, but not CN willingly or unwillingly.
They are working on trying to get shunting devices working well
Seeking answers on ‘loss of shunt:’ Special Report - Trains
 
Trains' Newswire had two good articles on this 'Loss of Shunt' - September 5 and September 6.

"In mid-August, the latest installment of an ongoing series of tests was staged out of Canadian National’s Effingham yard in southern Illinois. The sessions, attempting to seek a permanent solution for locations where loss-of-shunt issues are ongoing, were attended by participants from CN; Amtrak; the Federal Railroad Administration; the Illinois and California transportation departments, and equipment vendors. More testing is set for September."

CN commented to Trains:
****************
n a lengthy statement to Trains News Wire, CN says, “Extensive testing up to this point indicates that the random loss of shunt detection events experienced by single-level passenger equipment in the US is due to the absence of sufficient contact area between the wheels of passenger trains and the rail head.

A close-up of a rail head adjacent to a highway crossing at Chebanse, Ill. The wheel profile of a passenger car has a smaller contact area, which CN says contributes to loss of shunt. Bob Johnston
“The smaller contact area on the wheel profile of passenger equipment, combined with short and light trains, prevents the systematic sufficient transmission of current necessary to activate fully operational and FRA compliant railway crossings.”


Addressing why Superliners were required on the Illini-Saluki route, the company asserts, “Due to the safety concerns, CN required either the use of heavier equipment or lowering the maximum operating speed at grade crossings for single-level equipment on this route. This was the responsible thing to do to ensure safe operations.” The speed restriction does not apply with Superliners, which were found to consistently shunt the circuit.

Loss of shunt is not caused by any host railroad’s infrastructure. Events occur where the combination of consistently trued wheel profile, light weight equipment, and minimal axle counts are present. It is false to claim it only happens on some routes, as any route with these aspects present would likely result in random loss of shunt events.”
*********

Current testing involves an antena based system:

"The latest round of tests investigating ways to ensure trains always activate track circuits — the process known as “shunt” — involves shunt-enhancing antennas mounted on both trucks of a state-owned locomotive in Amtrak service in California.


Here’s how the antennas work on F59PHI locomotive No. 2007: Using electricity supplied by the locomotive in an 11-mile test zone, a specially designed track circuit assistor (TCA) antenna is mounted near each running rail. The TCA antenna induces current into the rails, creating an electrical circuit for signal detection that may not otherwise be reliably transmitted through the train’s wheels. The idea is to create a dependable shunt on the locomotive to obviate the need for axle counts, speed restrictions, or certain types of equipment currently used to address loss-of-shunt issues."

It is still boggles my mind that this is a problem after all the trains operating on many railroads including lightweight RDC's, Turbo trains, and trains with single level equipment. I suspect the lawyers were involved and said crossing gates must work 100% of the time!
 
Last edited:
In a lengthy statement to Trains News Wire, CN says, “Extensive testing up to this point indicates that the random loss of shunt detection events experienced by single-level passenger equipment in the US is due to the absence of sufficient contact area between the wheels of passenger trains and the rail head.
1. They must mean "single level passenger trains in the US" operating on CN tracks. The US is full of railroads running single level passenger trains that don;t seem to be having this problem.

2. Also, many single level passenger trains operate on CN tracks in Canada, and they don't seem to be having problems there.

This seems to only be a problem with single level trains on CN tracks in Illinois.
 
Yes the deflection from the CN spokesperson in the article was quite the eye roller given the amount of single level trains running even shorter consists on many other railroads. They also brag about the work they are doing to try to test fixes but they should be the ones “leading the way” on this issue since their infrastructure seems to be the reason for the issue. Other railroads don’t have the problem.
 
The Superliner requirement is more recent. It has to do with essentially requiring more axle load in order to actuate their broken circuit detection equipment which they seem to be incapable or unwilling to fix. Then entire rest of the world is able to operate these things with four car trains, but not CN willingly or unwillingly.
This use of Superliners for axel count is ridiculous. Have to wonder if the person who would update the material handling cars is trying to save his bonus. Wonder what the cost would be to make the MHCs roadworthy. Compare that to the additional revenue if Axel count cars were bring in revenue.
 
Why can't the VL baggage cars be weighed down with cinder blocks or sand bags to be sufficiently heavy ?

This goes on while CN's own lone RDC is running all over Canada on inspection trips. The 2 Quebec remote trains are an F40 and 2 cars.
 
This use of Superliners for axel count is ridiculous. Have to wonder if the person who would update the material handling cars is trying to save his bonus. Wonder what the cost would be to make the MHCs roadworthy. Compare that to the additional revenue if Axel count cars were bring in revenue.
For the CN route presently all the cars must be Superliners both revenue and axle count in order to avoid the speed restriction. A single level like a V2 baggage can be in the consist but as of right now they don’t count towards the axle count. For the CONO the “normal” consist has exactly the number of required Superliners to make the axle count so when they are able to run everything including the lounge and diner they don’t need an extra car however recently they had to pull the diner due to diner shop counts which means it now has to have an axle count car. As jis suggested the only current workaround would be to test and certify some type of leased freight car or other substitute with the same shunting capability as a superliner that could take the place of the axle count cars - but I doubt Amtrak and Illinois are that imaginative to think that much outside the box. The focus right now seems to be on a shunting device they are testing on the Midwest Charger locomotives and I suspect until that is approved and certified they will simply continue the status quo. Not defending it just trying to be realistic - this is Amtrak we’re taking about they’re not one to think imaginatively outside the box and all Illinois really cares about is the whether the train is running - the taking up of cars for axle count is Amtrak’s problem. Personally it’s too bad they don’t pursue multiple paths to try to mitigate this and get at least the axle count superliners off the line but again it’s Amtrak.
 
Last edited:
It is still boggles my mind that this is a problem after all the trains operating on many railroads including lightweight RDC's, Turbo trains, and trains with single level equipment. I suspect the lawyers were involved and said crossing gates must work 100% of the time!
Actually there were situations where RDCs had issues with triggering crossing signals. For example on the Reading RR which towards the end used RDCs for most of its passenger services, found that on lines such as the Bethlehem Branch where freight service had diminished, the few RDC passenger trains were too light to keep the rails polished enough for good contact to trigger crossing signals. Therefore once a day they would run one trip with a set of conventional coaches bracketed by a pair of FP7's in a top and tail configuration to keep the rails polished.
 
Additionally if the solution with the state Chargers is approved whether they will also equip some of the long distance ALC42s with this is another question. Given the CONO is the only affected LD train and also given its normal consist when it has a diner and lounge meets the requirements they may just continue the status quo with that one train even when the Carbondale corridor service is able to shift over to the Venture cars. Guess we’ll have to see on that one.
 
Therefore once a day they would run one trip with a set of conventional coaches bracketed by a pair of FP7's in a top and tail configuration to keep the rails polished.
Interesting, that makes sense as rusty rails certainly wouldn’t conduct current well. But on well used mainlines shouldn’t be a problem.
 
For example on the Reading RR which towards the end used RDCs for most of its passenger services,
..Most of its passenger services on the non-electrified lines (i.e. the Philadelphia-Bethlehem line, the Philadelphia - Reading - Pottsville Line, and the Philadelphia-Newark Line. The vast majority of Rading trains were EMUs.
 
..Most of its passenger services on the non-electrified lines (i.e. the Philadelphia-Bethlehem line, the Philadelphia - Reading - Pottsville Line, and the Philadelphia-Newark Line. The vast majority of Rading trains were EMUs.
Philadelphia-Newark Line? Huh, it's electrified between Philly and Newark, DE and between Philly and Newark, NJ
 
..Most of its passenger services on the non-electrified lines (i.e. the Philadelphia-Bethlehem line, the Philadelphia - Reading - Pottsville Line, and the Philadelphia-Newark Line. The vast majority of Reading trains were EMUs.
Yes I should have said the non electrified lines that went out of the suburban Philadelphia area as you pointed out.
The one set they had with 4 conventional coaches and a pair of FP7's was generally used on the Philadelphia to Reading run on weekday peak hours which was probably the run with the highest ridership. They generally ran it on the trip to Bethlehem for the midday run. When I worked in Fort Washington I used to walk down to the station during my lunch hour to watch it go through.
 
The Reading did not run on the NEC it had its own line via Jenkintown PA and Bound Brook NJ where I think it used the Jersey Central to get to Newark.
Ok, I'm not aware of the history of other lines. He should have specified Newark, NJ via.... ;)
 
Back
Top