Why do you think it's suboptimal?VIA Rail is already compliant, although they're using inclined chairlifts at at least a few stations (Kingston), which is a suboptimal solution.
Why do you think it's suboptimal?VIA Rail is already compliant, although they're using inclined chairlifts at at least a few stations (Kingston), which is a suboptimal solution.
A more historical comment: the first federal law requiring any accessibility was the Architectural Barriers Act of 1968. The Architectural Barriers Act is basically the first legislative victory.
From 1968 onward, the handwriting has been on the wall: all buildings should be made accessible eventually. The lawsuits started in the 1970s, starting with forcing WMATA to comply in its new-build subway system. Periodically, the laws are tightened, or enforcement stepped up, in response to bad actors who don't want to comply (often NYC Subway).
The laws will be tightened again. The exemption for unrenovated urban and commuter rail stations will probably be removed at some point. Some agencies will get ahead of that, others will be behind.
So, Amtrak management should have known since Amtrak was founded in 1971 that it would have to make everything wheelchair-accessible eventually.
Our neighbors in Ontario already set a hard deadline of 2025 for all stations in Ontario to be made accessible (in the AODA law). It's particularly difficult for the Toronto subway, but they'll at least get close -- they have 26 stations to go, but only two stations, Islington and Warden, are causing real delays, and they're being very open about that. The GO Transit commuter rail system should meet the deadline, with four stations to go (Eglinton, Georgetown, Long Branch, Mimico). VIA Rail is already compliant, although they're using inclined chairlifts at at least a few stations (Kingston), which is a suboptimal solution.
I do believe that the current head of accessibility at Amtrak is trying, but he can't even get a status report out on time. That's not OK. I'm currently expending my advocacy effort on timetables, but getting that status report is next in the queue.
I won't answer for him, but from my perspective they're time consuming, less safe, and have the potential to break rendering the station non-accessible.Why do you think it's suboptimal?
I also personally believe it's not true accessibility. Maybe it fulfills the law requirements, but requiring those with mobility issues to use a lift might be embarrassing and takes time. Lifts often don't perform well in the cold and yes, if it doesn't work what is the passenger to do?I won't answer for him, but from my perspective they're time consuming, less safe, and have the potential to break rendering the station non-accessible.
When @neroden said they were using an "inclined lift", I assumed it was something like this:I also personally believe it's not true accessibility. Maybe it fulfills the law requirements, but requiring those with mobility issues to use a lift might be embarrassing and takes time. Lifts often don't perform well in the cold and yes, if it doesn't work what is the passenger to do?
This is why I always much prefer high-level platforms over anything else, especially with platform gap fillers like the Siemens Ventures have. When those with mobility issues can use a service just like someone without them, it creates an immense sense of freedom. Sounds simple because it is simple. Those with mobility issues should be able to navigate the world nearly as much as those without them. Besides, you never know when you'll suddenly need crutches or a wheelchair one day and watch, you'll quickly become a disability advocate
I was referring to the Amtrak ones as the topic is Amtrak. Aren't Brightline's cars also Siemens?The Siemens Ventures do, though I'm not sure whether Amtrak's variant does, but I think it does if I'm remembering the San Joaquin show-and-tell correctly. Though I guess that only tells us that the *California* order does -- state of California does try to comply with the ADA
While boarding or alighting (aka exiting the train), passengers in wheelchairs can seamlessly roll on or off the train via the “gap filler,” which is a retractable gap filler that extends to meet the platform when the train is in the station.
I think you're right. I went on Google Maps to check out the station and this shows the stair lift.When @neroden said they were using an "inclined lift", I assumed it was something like this:
View attachment 26886
It's a fold-down platform that crawls up the rail of a staircase between floors.
I used one at the NY Transit Museum. They can go around curves and traverse landings. Basically, it replaces an elevator. It is quite slow.
It was operated by museum staff using a wired remote, but there were also controls facing the platform that could be operated by a wheelchair occupant. I think there were just barrier close, up, down, and emergency stop buttons, so it would be simple to operate with no training.
Yes, that's correct. It works but is very suboptimal, partly because it's so slow, and because it occupies the entire staircase while it's operating.When @neroden said they were using an "inclined lift", I assumed it was something like this:
View attachment 26886
It's a fold-down platform that crawls up the rail of a staircase between floors.
I've been looking for an update on those Westerly elevators for months now. Last update on that construction was over a year ago.I know Westerly about 20 years ago (my timing could be off) was retrofitted with lifts on the staircases into and out of it's pedestrian tunnel between the platforms. Right now the former lifts are being rebuilt into elevators down to the underpass.
Westerly is also on a curve and putting a high-level platform in (along with Mystic) would be tricky
I've been looking for an update on those Westerly elevators for months now. Last update on that construction was over a year ago.
Those are just gap fillers, not lifts. They slide out to reduce the gap between the car and the high platform.From Brightline.com:
While boarding or alighting (aka exiting the train), passengers in wheelchairs can seamlessly roll on or off the train via the “gap filler,” which is a retractable gap filler that extends to meet the platform when the train is in the station.
Yes, I'm pretty sure they do. The inter-car door width is enough of a part of the structural car design that they aren't going to make alternative, narrower, less compliant doors.So the question is - what did Amtrak choose because they are required to meet ADA at every station and that lift option sounds like it would meet that requirement. Brightline also says that wheelchairs can be moved from car to car because of inter-car door width. Will Amtrak cars allow that?
It sounds like that could meet ADA without having the option on every car.
The data attributed to Siemens in the article from the Czech magazine that I quoted above also said that movement between cars was ADA compliant, so I would say that's standard on Venture cars.So the question is - what did Amtrak choose because they are required to meet ADA at every station and that lift option sounds like it would meet that requirement. Brightline also says that wheelchairs can be moved from car to car because of inter-car door width. Will Amtrak cars allow that? It sounds like that could meet ADA without having the option on every car.
The slide I included in the previous post indicates the CA order has one lift-equipped coach per trainset, and that the car has 4 doors. So is there a lift at each of the 4 doors, making 2 per side? I also wonder whether the lifts incorporate a gap filler for level boarding, or are wheelchairs routed to the one car with gap fillers at those stations?For car-borne lifts there are generally at least two on each side of each train, which provides some redundancy; if the one at one door breaks, the one at another door will probably still work.
So I expect all future orders will have car-borne lifts, because of the importance of redundancy.
I got the impression from other comments that their is a choice between automatic stairs (that come down to low-level platform height when the door is opened) like a traditional trap but better because the bottom step is closer to the ground, a deployable wheelchair lift, or an automatic gap-filler on each door. I got the impression they couldn't be combined at a single door, but the 4 doors on a car could all be different.The slide I included in the previous post indicates there is one lift-equipped coach per trainset, and that the car has 4 doors. So is there a lift at each of the 4 doors, making 2 per side? I also wonder whether the lifts incorporate a gap filler for hi-level platforms.
How much do the portable station lifts cost?
Wouldn't it make sense to have more than one available for each platform, or at least have a spare at each station that could be swapped in while a broken lift is repaired? Probably 5 for stations with 2 low-level platforms (2 on each platform, plus a spare.) The chances of not having a working lift would be essentially zero.
I don't know. I'd guess you're right, a lift at each of the 4 doors? They were making an effort to line things up so that every lift door was adjacent to a stair door (in this case the stair door would be in the next car), so that ambulatory people wouldn't be in line behind the people using the lift.The slide I included in the previous post indicates the CA order has one lift-equipped coach per trainset, and that the car has 4 doors. So is there a lift at each of the 4 doors, making 2 per side? I also wonder whether the lifts incorporate a gap filler for level boarding, or are wheelchairs routed to the one car with gap fillers at those stations?
The gap fillers may be for use on the CAHSR trackage when it opens to traffic before being fully connected to the major cities...I don't know. I'd guess you're right, a lift at each of the 4 doors? They were making an effort to line things up so that every lift door was adjacent to a stair door (in this case the stair door would be in the next car), so that ambulatory people wouldn't be in line behind the people using the lift.
I don't know if the lifts incorporate a gap filler. My guess is not.
The gap fillers on the CA trains are curious given that there are no high-level platforms in service on any of the Amtrak California lines. I wonder what they're planning? This appears to be associated with future plans...
Amen, my friend. A few years back I broke an ankle badly, and ended up using a wheelchair for several months. I discovered that parts of the campus of my university--ostensibly fully accessible--were not accessible at all by someone in a wheelchair. And they didn't have an online map of the campus showing where accessible doors to each of the buildings were. I kept pestering the administration till they finally posted the map and changed several walkways to be more accessible. But I never would have noticed except for my personal experience of trying to navigate my way by wheelchair.Those with mobility issues should be able to navigate the world nearly as much as those without them. Besides, you never know when you'll suddenly need crutches or a wheelchair one day and watch, you'll quickly become a disability advocate
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