Bostontoallpoints
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I have to agree with you. I don't understand who is paying these prices and I don't how Amtrak can justify it. Chicago to Seattle is a trip I would like to take but like you I will take the cruise instead.
Fare Buckets - and when do they increase/decrease?
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Maybe Amtrak can justify it simply because people are paying those prices.
Bravo, @niemi24s you stated very succinctly what I've been arguing. Pretty much the iron economic laws of supply and demand.
A cruise will have thousands of cabins to fill and a workforce comprised of people from third world countries who make a pittance, far below US wages.
An Amtrak train will have at most 10 bedrooms under current conditions and 15 back when some trains had 3 Superliner sleepers. There will be as few as 2 bedrooms on some trains. Amtrak OBS is provided by a relatively well paid unionized work force with a good benefits package.
I think those simple facts speak for themselves as far as comparability goes.
Mystic River Dragon
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The question for me still is “Who is paying these fares?”
Older, knowledgeable, regular train riders are horrified and won’t do it.
I don’t think gen z or even millennials have that kind of money—and if they do, they’ll spend it on other things.
Rich businesspeople will fly.
People willing to pay a lot for a luxury train trip will take the Canadian.
So who on earth is actually paying exorbitant prices for the bedrooms and even some roomettes on Amtrak?
Older, knowledgeable, regular train riders are horrified and won’t do it.
I don’t think gen z or even millennials have that kind of money—and if they do, they’ll spend it on other things.
Rich businesspeople will fly.
People willing to pay a lot for a luxury train trip will take the Canadian.
So who on earth is actually paying exorbitant prices for the bedrooms and even some roomettes on Amtrak?
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There is a certain percentage of the US population that has enough money to do whatever they want. Living in New England, I am amazed how the price of houses climbs dramatically based on their distance to and view of a beach.
There was one brief point when the rich were actually, uh, "concerned". That was in 2008, and I took the kids on a total of eight cruises over three years at bargain basement prices. Not anymore.
There was one brief point when the rich were actually, uh, "concerned". That was in 2008, and I took the kids on a total of eight cruises over three years at bargain basement prices. Not anymore.
I pay exorbitant prices for bedrooms (if I want to travel). I am not rich, nor am I poor. I do not fly and I do not drive very far. If I want to travel, I pay the prices. Consequently due to the high fares, I am not travelling as much as I previously did. I do not see myself taking another cross country trip. My last one was with points in December 2019. Currently, my trips are infrequent and I generally use points one way and pay the other way. I have been Select Executive for years, but I am almost certain, I will lose that status for next year.
I am fortunate that I made my many cross country trips when fares were reasonable.
Well, I don't think we know, but one thing for sure is there does not need to be very many of them.
I think it may be older, infrequent casual train riders and newbies, both sets being unaware of the yield management system and so don't realize that fares fluctuate. Based on some posts on FB I've seen, I know some think buying early gets the best prices, so they think the high bucket fares they see 10/11 months out are the best they can get.
The infrequent riders may be aware of the wildly varying OBS quality but want to take a ride and resign themselves to it. They may be willing to pay for it since they don't do it very often.
The newbies (and by this I mean new to rail travel, not young), get sucked in by the pretty pictures and seductive marketing copy. They think they are paying luxury prices for a luxury product, not the often worn, beaten up and late-running reality with mediocre and occasionally surly staff. Many, quite justifiably, become "never agains".
There a lot more people who vaguely like trains and think a train ride might be fun than there are dedicated and knowledgeable Amtrak riders. Remember, we here are a self selected group that is generally far more aware of Amtrak's practices than the average Amtrak rider. I have a very good friend who is a hard-core railfan but only a very occasional Amtrak rider. He and his wife have ridden overnight trains a few times and like them, and are aware of the service vagaries. They want to do a transcontinental Amtrak trip sometime in the indefinite future, but probably in the next 2-3 years. He knows I make long Amtrak trips with some regularity and knows I know how to "game" the system about as well as it can be. He's already said he wants my help when their plans start to solidify. But if I wasn't around, knowing him I would say there is about a 50/50 chance that he'd bite the bullet even on a high bucket fare because they want to do the trip and it would be a one time thing. They are far from rich, btw.
Coming back to my initial point, it really does not require very many people accepting high bucket to keep the prices high. There doesn't have to be a large demographic. This year, assuming the second Builder sleeper actually materializes, for the months of June, July and August, there will be a total of 920 Bedrooms available between Chicago and Seattle. Last year, with just one sleeper, there were just 460 for the same 3 months, pretty much the entire summer.
That is not a lot. Out of potential tens or even hundreds of thousands of potential summer travelers between Seattle and Chicago, a few hundred deciding, what the heck, let's take the train anyway, does not seem outlandish.
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Unless your density approaches that of Osmium, you should realize the answer is both unknown and unknowable.
It is frustrating to see those ridiculous prices Amtrak charges. As has been stated quite often here some people will pay 2 to 3 thousand dollars for a bedroom. Amtrak doesn’t care. They get their money and effectively shut out average Americans who are low and middle class who will not pay that kind of money,
I used to take circle trips for years. Always found low buckets on every train I wanted, I ride just to ride. The destination is not important. I have been riding the Southwest Chief and Texas Eagle from Chicago to LA more than any other train because these two seem to have more low buckets than any other train.
It usually costs more to get to Chicago or from Chicago to Washington in a roomette on a one night trip with flex than a two or three night trip to LA with real food. I reluctantly ride Coach to get to Chicago by default. .In December I m taking the Sunset/Texas for $448 roomette from LA to Bloomington, $13 Coach to Chicago. Chicago to DC on the Capitol Limited $630. Chicago to NY on the Lake Shore $730 or so . Both high bucket, Coach to DC $76 ,I did put a bid up of $225 for the Capitol Limited.
I used to take circle trips for years. Always found low buckets on every train I wanted, I ride just to ride. The destination is not important. I have been riding the Southwest Chief and Texas Eagle from Chicago to LA more than any other train because these two seem to have more low buckets than any other train.
It usually costs more to get to Chicago or from Chicago to Washington in a roomette on a one night trip with flex than a two or three night trip to LA with real food. I reluctantly ride Coach to get to Chicago by default. .In December I m taking the Sunset/Texas for $448 roomette from LA to Bloomington, $13 Coach to Chicago. Chicago to DC on the Capitol Limited $630. Chicago to NY on the Lake Shore $730 or so . Both high bucket, Coach to DC $76 ,I did put a bid up of $225 for the Capitol Limited.
Mystic River Dragon
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Thank you—a very thoughtful and insightful analysis. I think you’ve come up with some very good answers.
@Sidney by what other means do you propose to ration a scarce commodity? Especially one that is very much a discretionary purchase? In a market system that is usually done by price, which is what we see demonstrated in Amtrak’s yield management of sleepers. Other options might include a lottery, first come, first served, which advantages those who can plan nearly a year in advance, or giving priority to frequent users of the service, which would advantage many here.
It strikes me that price or lottery are the fairest options.
While I do not like and will not pay high bucket, I don't agree with your statement that it excludes middle class Americans. In my very recent post in this thread, I described my friends who very well might be willing to pay high bucket for a transcontinental trip if they didn't know there were ways to get around it. That couple is a truck driver and a dental hygienist, hardly the 1%. They want to do it and might be willing to, if they weren't aware there might be options, because it would be a one time thing.
The people the pricing may exclude is middle class Americans who want to take sleeper trips regularly. That describes many of us here, but I think my friend and his wife are more typical. A one time or very infrequent special treat. Those very few of us who do ride regularly frankly have to work at it to get our more frequent sleeper trips halfway affordably. It takes time, patience, effort and a pretty good knowledge base to do it and even the best efforts are not always rewarded with lower bucket fares.
The high fares adversely affect me. I don't like them. But I also do not take the operation of basic economic laws personally.
It strikes me that price or lottery are the fairest options.
While I do not like and will not pay high bucket, I don't agree with your statement that it excludes middle class Americans. In my very recent post in this thread, I described my friends who very well might be willing to pay high bucket for a transcontinental trip if they didn't know there were ways to get around it. That couple is a truck driver and a dental hygienist, hardly the 1%. They want to do it and might be willing to, if they weren't aware there might be options, because it would be a one time thing.
The people the pricing may exclude is middle class Americans who want to take sleeper trips regularly. That describes many of us here, but I think my friend and his wife are more typical. A one time or very infrequent special treat. Those very few of us who do ride regularly frankly have to work at it to get our more frequent sleeper trips halfway affordably. It takes time, patience, effort and a pretty good knowledge base to do it and even the best efforts are not always rewarded with lower bucket fares.
The high fares adversely affect me. I don't like them. But I also do not take the operation of basic economic laws personally.
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With so few sleepers being operated it doesn't take many riders to fill all the rooms
I 100% agree with this, the cost of Amtrak fares is just way too high, especially since the pandemic ended. Booking a month in advance it extremely difficult for me to get fares at a reasonable price for regular trips. I'm fortunate I like trains and I've acquired some perks from my status, but when I'm traveling with friends even for a simple trip to DC they'll only go if they get the base fare, we have to plan 3-4 months in advance making sure that I can get a base fare in both directions. The only reason I'm "ok" with higher fares is that I need to travel, but even then I'm always camping at their site for price drops. But for leisure travel, even the cost of a base roomette is high for me, so anything higher than the base fare is almost an automatic no. Again because I like riding the train, I could consider a base roomette, but anyone else if they were interested in riding the train they'd go to coach. Even a $30 business class upgrade is steep because to us that can translate to 2 meals at our destination, save another $15-$20 at a hotel you got your meals for the day.
Yep, I havent taken a Sleeper trip( Paid) on the Eaglette in over 3 years, used to take 4-5 LD Trips a year!
It's Unbelievable what current AmManagement has done to this Train ( and the Cap and CONO )and other LD Trains also with their "Don't have a Clue and Dont Care Management!!"
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fordt
Train Attendant
I’ve been checking monthly a Coastal trip from LA-Sea in Feb 2024 for an anniversary thing. Lowest bedroom fares are currently like $1240. I haven’t decided what the highest I’ll pay is before I just say “nope”! I guess if there’s a possibility it can fall below a grand I’ll think about it, haven’t talked the bride into a roomette….
Hubby and I are leaving on a trip next week. Taking Southwest Chief from Los Angeles to Chicago, Lakeshore Ltd from Chicago to Boston, Downeaster from Boston to Portland Maine. Renting a car in Portland and driving to Bar Harbor and Acadia National Park. Then the whole thing in reverse. We are in bedrooms on all legs of the trip except obviously the Downeaster, where we are in business. Total trainfare cost me a bit over $5000. It's insanely expensive and hubby and I are definitely middle class, not rich. But the way I see it is that up until my first Amtrak trip in 2018, I did not really travel at all because I am terrified of flying. Once I discovered the train, I have done quite a few long distance trips to places I would never have gone otherwise. I'm sort of able to make up for all the lost vacations now. This upcoming trip will be my first time ever on the east coast. Plus, hubby and I are not spring chickens, so I want to do our trips while we are still healthy enough and mobile enough to enjoy them. That's my justification for paying the $$$$ Amtrak wants for a bedroom, not that I really need to justify myself.
FYI, that's the current Bedroom fare for two seniors and, to make your searching easier, translates to a $1087 fare for one adult. There are now eight different Bedroom fares and there are only two lower fares - $991 and $905 (for one adult). The highest is $1776.
In addition, Bedrooms are much less plentiful than Roomettes and can get sold out faster, you might consider booking it now and then keep checking for a lower fare. If a lower fare is offered, AGR will modify your reservation to the lower fare and refund the difference. Your choice.
Mystic River Dragon
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I understand your reasoning. I, too, am willing to spend a bit more as I get older to travel while I can. I think the pandemic made people reevaluate things and decide to be grateful for each day and make the most of it. For example, a favorite getaway place for me is Mystic, Connecticut, and I now splurge and get a room in an inn right on the river, whereas before I would stay at a chain hotel away from the river and use points.
What annoys me is that Amtrak (and some chain hotels, too) are taking advantage of people feeling this way and seeing how high a price they can get away with.
You have picked a wonderful part of the country for your first trip to the east coast. Bar Harbor is absolutely beautiful. I wish you and your husband a wonderful trip here in the eastern part of the country!
If you think that's insane, that round trip could cost as much as $8252! So your fare doesn't sound too bad in comparison.
FWIW, the cheapest fare for your trip would be$4282.
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While people are paying these fares to some extent, the fares and service provided will not result in repeat ridership. How many one off passengers are there until the well runs dry?
I’m not wholly convinced the trains are as full as people think. Talking to multiple employees about it and have ridden “sold out” trains the entire route that were basically empty I don’t buy into it. Another point that fosters my cynicism is the recently appearing day of departure availability that has been pointed out up thread. Not only are rooms available day of travel they’re at the low bucket in some cases.
The one (1) family bedroom on the SWC I’ve talked about extensively in the past is still consistly empty the entire route on average 4 days a week CHI to LAX.
Ok I was bored so I looked it up again. It’s not booked at all 5 out of the next 7 including the next 3 days in a row and it’s at the new set price of $2085 one way. That price doesn’t seem to budge at all. Prior to this nonsense the fare was about $800-850 for 2 adults and 2 toddlers. The part that really burns me is it’s a non upgraded room no Bid up available.
I’m not wholly convinced the trains are as full as people think. Talking to multiple employees about it and have ridden “sold out” trains the entire route that were basically empty I don’t buy into it. Another point that fosters my cynicism is the recently appearing day of departure availability that has been pointed out up thread. Not only are rooms available day of travel they’re at the low bucket in some cases.
The one (1) family bedroom on the SWC I’ve talked about extensively in the past is still consistly empty the entire route on average 4 days a week CHI to LAX.
Ok I was bored so I looked it up again. It’s not booked at all 5 out of the next 7 including the next 3 days in a row and it’s at the new set price of $2085 one way. That price doesn’t seem to budge at all. Prior to this nonsense the fare was about $800-850 for 2 adults and 2 toddlers. The part that really burns me is it’s a non upgraded room no Bid up available.
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Not sure when this nonsense started for you, but my Jan 2016 fare bucket chart indicates a low bucket Family Bedroom for two adults on the SWC was $909.
I guess your nonsense period began before 2016.
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$789 12/23/18 with military discount so you may be right -15 percent and the rail fare is calculated differently as well. I was super surprised to get that date at that price. We got in Christmas morning. Awesome trip. The fact doesn’t change though the family room is now more expensive, and not booked often. $909 low bucket to a basically everyday fare of $2084 is excessive in my opinion.
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fordt
Train Attendant
Pardon my ignorance, but AGR is? Amtrak Guest Rewards? So, join up, buy my tix and then keep checking rates and if they go down, then being a member allows me to request the new rate and get a refund, or will they automatically modify my resv? From your numbers it sounds like $1240 for 2 is getting pretty close to the lowest it may be. Thanks!
1. AGR is indeed Amtrak Guest Rewards.
2. Modifying a reservation to capture a price drop is never automatic. You have to discover it yourself and call to get it.
3. AGR membership has nothing to do with the ability to get a refund from a price drop. Both members and non-members can get it.
4. @niemi24s probably suggested calling the AGR line because it tends to be staffed with more experienced and more competent agents, not because AGR membership confers special rights to refunds. A regular agent on 800-USA-RAIL can do it, too. The chances of getting an agent that doesn't know how to do it is somewhat greater, though.
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