Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

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Steve4031 said:
His, those posts about the sawtooth bridge were informative and helpful.
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Yes. There are lots of people like me who follow this second-hand.

I was interested to note that one part of the project might be able to use the spoil from another part as fill. We did that in Edmonton for the 1983 extension of the LRT subway. Spoil from the tunnel boring machine was loaded into dump cars and pulled out in the night by Locomotive 2001, formerly of the BC Electric, and originally with the Oregon Electric. It was used as fill for the new yard. We saved many dump truck trips through downtown.
 
IMO Sawtooth project is very important. If Sawtooth is complete and for some reason the new Gateway bore are not yet complete, then Sawtooth helps both Amtrak and NJ Transit. At present there is an eastbound track from the NE toward Hoboken. But there is no westbound connection . So westbound trains have to use the eastbound tracks and cross over all NEC tracks at grade to get on westbound track.

Sawtooth is going to add a grade separated westbound tack to connect to the NEC westbound tracks.
So, if something should happen to one of the old tubes then bi direction travel to Hoboken will be possible. Since Sawtooth can be completed faster than Gateway bores then, IMHO it needs a priority construction schedule. That has not been the case so far as I know. Remember reading the EIS over a year ago?
 
west point said:
IMO Sawtooth project is very important. If Sawtooth is complete and for some reason the new Gateway bore are not yet complete, then Sawtooth helps both Amtrak and NJ Transit. At present there is an eastbound track from the NE toward Hoboken. But there is no westbound connection . So westbound trains have to use the eastbound tracks and cross over all NEC tracks at grade to get on westbound track.

Sawtooth is going to add a grade separated westbound tack to connect to the NEC westbound tracks.
So, if something should happen to one of the old tubes then bi direction travel to Hoboken will be possible. Since Sawtooth can be completed faster than Gateway bores then, IMHO it needs a priority construction schedule. That has not been the case so far as I know. Remember reading the EIS over a year ago?
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The reverse Kearny Connection track is not part of the current Sawtooth Bridge Replacement Project.
 
west point said:
IMO Sawtooth project is very important. If Sawtooth is complete and for some reason the new Gateway bore are not yet complete, then Sawtooth helps both Amtrak and NJ Transit. At present there is an eastbound track from the NE toward Hoboken. But there is no westbound connection . So westbound trains have to use the eastbound tracks and cross over all NEC tracks at grade to get on westbound track.

Sawtooth is going to add a grade separated westbound tack to connect to the NEC westbound tracks.
So, if something should happen to one of the old tubes then bi direction travel to Hoboken will be possible. Since Sawtooth can be completed faster than Gateway bores then, IMHO it needs a priority construction schedule. That has not been the case so far as I know. Remember reading the EIS over a year ago?
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Waterfront Connection has its own rather new bridge and girders. It is not the Pennsy flyover that Sawtooth is. Since all 4 pairs of NJCL trains to and from Hoboken have been gone since the pandemic began, leaving only an eastbound RVL High Bridge train run basically to take employyes to the MMC shop complex that deadheads back from Hoboken it is not currently an operational issue.

When westbound NJCL trains did use it, they used the lower numbered tracks through Newark Penn, like track 2, and wrong-railed to Rahway so they did not have to crossover much of anything. That is why there has never been a PM westbound Raritan line counterpart.
 
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I passed over the Portal Bridge yesterday. Looks like they're staging construction equipment, and maybe they've even turned some dirt, unless that's for someone else's project. Which side of the current bridge is the replacement going to be built?
 
MARC Rider said:
I passed over the Portal Bridge yesterday. Looks like they're staging construction equipment, and maybe they've even turned some dirt, unless that's for someone else's project. Which side of the current bridge is the replacement going to be built?
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North side. That is right side of train leaving NYP or left side arriving NYP.
 
PXL_20220629_135123272.jpg

Jis I am not sure who else to ask, but I have a feeling you have a pretty good idea.

What I can't yet visualize is where the new tubes will enter Penn Station.

This photo is taken basically directly above the current two tubes. To the right are the tracks leading to empire tunnel.

Just seems pretty crowded down there...
 
Long Train Runnin' said:
View attachment 29642

Jis I am not sure who else to ask, but I have a feeling you have a pretty good idea.

What I can't yet visualize is where the new tubes will enter Penn Station.

This photo is taken basically directly above the current two tubes. To the right are the tracks leading to empire tunnel.

Just seems pretty crowded down there...
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There are two tracks between the Empire Connection and the bathtub wall to the south of it (on the side away from the current tubes). The tracks from the new Hudson tubes will connect to those. Actually the approach tunnels are already in place. All that has to be done is to knock down the bathtub wall and dig a short connecting segment.

All this would be on the right hand side of this photo but out of its field.

The Teal colored tracks in the schematic below are the new tracks that will go in place as part of the Gateway related construction. This is before NYP South is constructed.

Penn-Track-Diagram-Gateway-Scenario_CBDmapArtboard-1@2x.png
 
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JIS Glad you posted the planned track lay out. If you could post it as a locked reference thread it might help many of our posters especially newer posters.
Comments on the lay out.
1. Certainly helps that Empire tunnel will access above the present station track 8 limit future to track 18. Should never need those higher tracks normally but--- .
2. Puzzle that new tunnel bores tracks 1 & 4 will only have 1 route to / from station tracks 9 - 18? Another indication that plan is for NJT to mainly use station tracks 1 - 8 ?
3. I supppose that itis way too early to know exactly where the tracks to Penn South will connect to tunnel tracks 1 & 4 ?
4. Reference #3 are there impediments for tracks 1E & 2E to connect to new tunnel tracks 1 & 4.
5. Interesting that present North river tunnel bores already numbered as tracks 2 & 3.
6. Somehow I had not realized that Lines 3 & 4 could only access station tracks 14 and higher.
7. Which East river tunnel Line is going to be closed for rehab first?. Can understand when Line 3 & 4 are how each closed is going to effect LIRR service to NYP.
8. Are JO and C interlockings controlled from same location? Noticed they overlap station tracks 14 - 17.
 
It would be great if this site could have a locked section of major station track diagrams. Include present lay out with planned improvements as the above NYP map has. Ones I think of would be BOS, BON, New Haven, SSYD, NYP, PHL, WAS, CHI, LAX.
EDIT added SSYD.
 
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The track diagram that I posted above is the Gateway Phase I diagram. The overall fully completed Gateway track diagram that is proposed for Penn Station and Penn Station South looks like this:

Penn-South-Plans.png


One thing to note about the new tunnels is that they carry tracks 1 and 4 which are the tracks normally used to commuter and slower service between Newark and Trenton. They are the so called "outer" tracks with lower speed limits. The track diagram at Penn Station suggest that the new tunnels are primarily for use by train terminating at Penn Station since they have the most seamless access to the terminating platforms. Accessing the other platforms involves significant conflicting moves.
 
jis said:
Accessing the other platforms involves significant conflicting moves.
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That is going to be a problem wile the North River Tunnel bores are being rehabbed. If you can start as an administrator a locked thread in Amtrak thread with Amtrak rail yards then each rail yard title listed separately. Your two NYP diagrams could be a start.
 
west point said:
That is going to be a problem wile the North river tunnel bores are being rehabbed. If you can start as an administrator a locked thread in Amtrak thread with Amtrak rail yards then each rail yard title listed separately. Your two NYP diagrams could be a start.
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Not as much of a problem since closing the old tunnel(s) will remove or significantly reduce the conflicting moves. The conflicts come in or go out through those tunnels.
 
Can someone explain why the portal north bridge is being built with only 2 tracks vs 4? Sorry if this was discussed earlier but seems like a gigantic oversight for a bridge so unbelievably expensive. I know they plan for a portal south bridge but I don't really understand why they cant link a 4 track portal north bridge to the existing tunnels and the newly planned tunnels and therefore only have to build 1 bridge vs 2 (it will take a millennium for that second bridge to be built).
 

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