San Francisco - Los Angeles Night Train proposals

[GDRRiley]

Nowhere to really park the train for a long time in Oakland. I guess Emeryville is the next best location, plus it has the bus connections to SF proper. Sacramento was the final northern stop for the Spirit of California, so that is an option.

The state owned Oakland maintenance Facility could work and during the day it should be fairly empty

Direct to SF could be an issue once Caltrain electrifies the corridor, and especially if/when HSR starts running through. Would Caltrain allow them to run diesel under the wire, or are they going to be required to run a dual-mode loco?

UP is going to be diesel under wire for now

Even better - would Caltrain even allow them to run San Jose - SF during peak morning commute? Would they have the slot available?

Unlikely caltrian will let them. If they go north of SJ they get to deal with a congested Coast line or get routed east via Milpitas. there is no connection track allowing them to go via the Niles sub towards Oakland. That will change with south bay connect but that is 3+ years away.

 

[Anderson]

Here are the train arrivals into San Francisco in the AM:
0603
[19 min]
0622
[30 min]
0652
[8 min]
0700
[5 min]
0705
[28 min]
0733
[8 min]
0741
[19 min]
0800
[5 min]
0805
[28 min]
0833
[8 min]
0841
[19 min]
0900
[5 min]
0905
[28 min]
0933
[8 min]
0941
[20 min]
1001
[32 min]
1033
[24 min]
1057

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

In general, I think they might be able to talk their way into one of the gaps that're around 30 minutes?

 

[cirdan]

What seems to kill off most luxury trains is not the day-to-day viability but the decade-by-decade recessions. I'm not sure if it's because they don't save enough for a rainy day or if there is simply no way for such a product to survive an extended downturn.

There are some notable exceptions, so there is a way to deal with these problems.

 

[Trogdor]

Here are the train arrivals into San Francisco in the AM:
0603
[19 min]
0622
[30 min]
0652
[8 min]
0700
[5 min]
0705
[28 min]
0733
[8 min]
0741
[19 min]
0800
[5 min]
0805
[28 min]
0833
[8 min]
0841
[19 min]
0900
[5 min]
0905
[28 min]
0933
[8 min]
0941
[20 min]
1001
[32 min]
1033
[24 min]
1057

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

In general, I think they might be able to talk their way into one of the gaps that're around 30 minutes?

The issue isn’t arrivals into SF, it’s capacity along the line. Many of those wider gaps are the result of express/limited/local stopping patterns, so a 30-minute gap on one end might only be 5-10 on the other.

 

[jis]

I am wondering what they'd do with the consist after it arrives in SF? Run it back empty to San Jose for storage? Any ability to store consists in SF is extremely limited from what I understand.

 

[joelkfla]

I am wondering what they'd do with the consist after it arrives in SF? Run it back empty to San Jose for storage? Any ability to store consists in SF is extremely limited from what I understand.

I count 13 tracks at the station platforms. There are also a small number of storage tracks, looks like 2 or 3. And IIRC service runs all day, so some trains will be returning to San Jose.

 

[jis]

I count 13 tracks at the station platforms. There are also a small number of storage tracks, looks like 2 or 3. And IIRC service runs all day, so some trains will be returning to San Jose.

Well, as usual the issue will be to what extent Caltrain wishes to accommodate them to store a train, at what cost and at what location. Also, they better get push-pull equipment, or at least equipment that does not require turning.

Just as a random example, Penn Station in New York has many storage tracks and none of them are continuously occupied throughout the day. But I bet NJT, LIRR and Amtrak would throw a joint hissyfit if someone else tried to occupy one for the entire day.

What I have read so far gives me the impression that as presented their plan is pretty wishy-washy involving a lot of wishful thinking and dreaming.

 

[Bonser]

The state owned Oakland maintenance Facility could work and during the day it should be fairly empty

UP is going to be diesel under wire for now

Unlikely caltrian will let them. If they go north of SJ they get to deal with a congested Coast line or get routed east via Milpitas. there is no connection track allowing them to go via the Niles sub towards Oakland. That will change with south bay connect but that is 3+ years away.
View attachment 32385

Without a direct San Francisco connection it's DOA.

 

[Anderson]

The issue isn’t arrivals into SF, it’s capacity along the line. Many of those wider gaps are the result of express/limited/local stopping patterns, so a 30-minute gap on one end might only be 5-10 on the other.

This is true, but the SF timing is the most important part. The overnight train would likely run either non-stop San Jose-San Francisco or only have one or two stops in between. It's at San Francisco (and San Jose) that they would probably need a few minutes to offload pax, and in the case of San Francisco also need to reverse the train out.

 

[allanorn]

This is true, but the SF timing is the most important part. The overnight train would likely run either non-stop San Jose-San Francisco or only have one or two stops in between. It's at San Francisco (and San Jose) that they would probably need a few minutes to offload pax, and in the case of San Francisco also need to reverse the train out.

I don't think there's a lot of opportunity, especially given a significant amount of the track on the peninsula is at-grade and frequent stopping patterns by local trains.

The latest draft of the state rail plan is up for comment - they're discussing 15-minute intervals for Caltrain in five years (doable once electrification completes and they have the equipment) and adding on HSR in 15-minute intervals long-term. The peninsula does not have a lot of passing opportunities for a non-stop train even with a couple of passing segments under construction for HSR. I can't imagine what the optics will be if Caltrain forces a full commuter train to stop for several minutes while a "luxury train" trundles by.

One can never expect Caltrain to publish a sane schedule - look at their previous and current attempts - but I expect they will demand a king's ransom to slot in a once-daily train in each direction and store it during the day, if they are even willing to entertain it.

 

[joelkfla]

I just took a look at the Caltrain schedule. There are 3 Baby Bullets that are scheduled to travel from SJ to SF each morning in 66 minutes. The following trains leave SJ 24 minutes later. Why couldn't a night train slip in behind one of the BB's? Even if it had to wait behind the BB for some station stops, 66 minutes seems quite reasonable between SJ & SF. I would build in 30 minutes dwell time at SJ to pad for delays.

Or it could arrive in SF at 6am, before the first Caltrain. They could keep the train in the station with HEP on until 7 for passengers who don't want to deboard that early. With 13 station tracks and just 4 Caltrains arriving between 6 & 7, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Herb]

The whole issue is that America’s railroads are not national infrastructure, they are private infrastructure. I believe Congress gave way to much to the railroads when AMTRAK was formed. If Congress had said, OK you don’t (won’t) do passenger service as in the original agreements (where they got millions of acres of land for payment to construct ) then we are taking back the rails. That would have made railroads like our Interstate Highways. A use fee for hauling on the tracks, open access to other haulers (competition !). The roads and stations, signals etc would all be nationally owned infrastructure. Fees for use would go to operation and maintarnende. It’s been done else where successfully. See the YouTube by High Speed Rail Alliance “Integrated Rail”.

 

[allanorn]

I just took a look at the Caltrain schedule. There are 3 Baby Bullets that are scheduled to travel from SJ to SF each morning in 66 minutes. The following trains leave SJ 24 minutes later. Why couldn't a night train slip in behind one of the BB's? Even if it had to wait behind the BB for some station stops, 66 minutes seems quite reasonable between SJ & SF. I would build in 30 minutes dwell time at SJ to pad for delays.

They can do it on the current schedule, but it must overtake one local in order to make 8:30am (their proposed arrival time). If they are good on the throttle they can depart after the 6:59am Baby Bullet and arrive between 8:33 and 8:41 without an overtake. Caltrain runs 4tph in each direction at peak weekday, so finding that sweet spot is plausible today.

However, this is a pre-electrification schedule with all-stop locals, skip-stop limiteds, and express trains, and shouldn't be assumed that this will hold post-electrification. Even if they keep a similar schedule, opportunities for overtakes disappear by adding 4tph in each direction when HSR starts and does their own overtakes. It isn't impossible, but this is primarily two-track territory with some third-track for planned HSR overtakes.

Or it could arrive in SF at 6am, before the first Caltrain. They could keep the train in the station with HEP on until 7 for passengers who don't want to deboard that early. With 13 station tracks and just 4 Caltrains arriving between 6 & 7, that shouldn't be a problem.

Their goal is to depart LAX at 10pm and arrive at 8:30am. Trying to arrive before 6 blows up that schedule.

 

[cirdan]

Just as a random example, Penn Station in New York has many storage tracks and none of them are continuously occupied throughout the day. But I bet NJT, LIRR and Amtrak would throw a joint hissyfit if someone else tried to occupy one for the entire day.

I understand that on commuter services it is night-time storage that is the problem. During the day there should always be some space as the trains that occupy that space at night will be out and working. So with some goodwill from both sides I am sure a deal could be worked out.

It would be a day train on the same route that would cause many more problems.

 

[Anderson]

I understand that on commuter services it is night-time storage that is the problem. During the day there should always be some space as the trains that occupy that space at night will be out and working. So with some goodwill from both sides I am sure a deal could be worked out.

It would be a day train on the same route that would cause many more problems.

They could also run the train back down to (say) San Jose off-timetable. Without looking at the ROW, would there be somewhere they could stash/service the train other than 4th and King?

 

[GDRRiley]

They could also run the train back down to (say) San Jose off-timetable. Without looking at the ROW, would there be somewhere they could stash/service the train other than 4th and King?

Between SF and San Jose one spot would be the caltrain OMF yard

It has been some years since I took the Coast Daylight along this route with the "Pacific Parlour Car". I remember the ride as being pretty smooth, Any comments on the track condition today? I do recall the Souther Pacific, before the takeover by Union Pacific, had really let some of their roadbed slip badly.

San Luis Obispo to Ventura has been receiving CWR (continuous welded rai) and major tie work over the last few years. Santa Barbra to San Luis Obispo also got CTC. UP wanted CTC between Salinas and San Luis Obispo along with PTC and other work for the state to start a coast daylight

 

[joelkfla]

San Luis Obispo to Ventura has been receiving CWR and major tie work over the last few years.

Is that continuous welded rail?

 

[jis]

Is that continuous welded rail?

Yes.

 

[allanorn]

They could also run the train back down to (say) San Jose off-timetable. Without looking at the ROW, would there be somewhere they could stash/service the train other than 4th and King?

CEMOF might be it, but that's basically at San Jose Diridon. 4th and King is the other yard Caltrain owns. You might be able to stash a train somewhere on a siding close to 4th and King, but servicing it is another matter.

Trying to send a train down to CEMOF and back to SF post-electrification (and post-HSR) is not going to be a good time; that could easily be an hour each way. Operationally it is easier if 4th and King isn't an option to either head up to OAK/EMY or terminate at Diridon and send everyone on Caltrain or HSR. Neither option is great if they're promising San Francisco.

 

[west point]

Of course, never happen but if another transbay tube would be built?

 

[allanorn]

Of course, never happen but if another transbay tube would be built?

In the California Rail Plan by 2050. Going to be a long wait, assuming it's for standard gauge.

 

[GDRRiley]

Of course, never happen but if another transbay tube would be built?

There is plans for another transbay tube in the works right now, the early plan had 4 tunnels, 2 mainline and 2 bart. For now they are just going to do one but plan around doing the second in the future if needed. if they went immersed tube like last time they could really do the core of both for a small amount more than a single set. Leave out connecting the ends via tunneling till later.