St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[diesteldorf]

May be a dumb question...but I am sick of Googling and know this question would probably be the equivalent of an uncontested layup for LeBron James....

When I rode the Pennsylvanian Business Class and Chicago to St. Louis Business Class 10-15 years ago, I was in a car with 2-1 leather seating with a cafe car at the front. There were probably 15-20 seats in the entire car, but it may have been more.

Am I describing a CLUB DINETTE CAR? I remember when the Pennsylvanian got rid of this configuration and switched to a standard car. It was no longer worth what Amtrak was charging IMO.

Hoping BC on the Borealis is similar to what I remember about the old Pennsylvanian.

It's pretty sad that I rarely take BC regionals on the NE Corridor and would rather splurge for Acela FC, though I am usually redeeming an AGR coupon.

 

[daybeers]

should be nicer than riding coach

Is Amfleet I split cafe/BC seating better than Superliner coach? Probably a bit, but maybe not worth the upcharge.

Of course the reliability and schedule is better.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Unless the plans have changed recently it is supposed to be a 4 Coach and 1 Club-Dinette train. There are enough Horizon cars available to start this service with what the original plan was, otherwise they would not start it at this time.

This is correct! I apologize if one of my posts late yesterday on this topic contradicted itself--I was tired and overexcited. The Great River Rail Commission (MN coordinating partner--long story) and others have made it very clear that there will be 4 coaches and one 'cafe' (club/dinette as Jis said) to begin with.

"Amtrak Borealis trains will consist of four Horizon class passenger cars with one cafe car and a locomotive. The Great River Rail Commission’s website will soon feature more information about the service, including amenities, ticket prices, destinations and more. " Source link here.

 

[diesteldorf]

I think that you might have accidentally seen this backwards, or else they haven't built out the fares in their system properly that far yet? Everything I've seen looking closer in time is $41 or $44 for the Borealis (which is the announced lowest possible coach fare) NOT for the EB, with the EB being far more expensive. The few business class seats on the Borealis will be in the $90s usually.

I think you may be right...because I did some more checking and saw additional fares that were closer to $40-$50, but I looked again and found these fares for March 14, 2025.

I am 90% sure I also saw some other coach fares in the $90s.

I know aberrations always exist.....It's possible Taylor Swift may be doing a special, secret, Amtrak exclusive Eras concert with live leprechauns to celebrate St Patty's Day....

 

[Amtrak25]

Is Amfleet I split cafe/BC seating better than Superliner coach? Probably a bit, but maybe not worth the upcharge.

Of course the reliability and schedule is better.

Wider seat, 2-seater having a big fat armrest, but shorter seat pitch than a LD coach.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

"Reliability" would only apply to Eastbound trains though since the Builder starts in Chicago, it has as good of a chance of being reliable as the Borealis.

Glad to see St. Paul Union Station getting more service - I remember riding past the abandoned station on the Empire Builder after departing the Amshack and dreaming it would be saved - it's such a great success story!

 

[Amtrak25]

Am I describing a CLUB DINETTE CAR? I remember when the Pennsylvanian got rid of this configuration and switched to a standard car. It was no longer worth what Amtrak was charging IMO.

Hoping BC on the Borealis is similar to what I remember about the old Pennsylvanian.

Pennsylvanian and most NEC Regional trains use an Amfleet-1 60-seat coach for Business class, which is inferior to an Amfleet-2 60 seat coach, which has legrests.

The Borealis will get a dinette-cafe-business car, 15 seats 2+1, most likely Horizon, but maybe Amfleet-1. The Amfleet-1 ones in Chicago do not have "Northeast Regional" written along the blank area of the window band, although they do eventually get there sometimes.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I think you may be right...because I did some more checking and saw additional fares that were closer to $40-$50, but I looked again and found these fares for March 14, 2025.

I am 90% sure I also saw some other coach fares in the $90s.

Quite odd, I must say! Clearly the far-future fares are looking much more expensive, based on what you've found. It feels too coincidental that the advertised $41 based fare for the Borealis would be what's shown for the EB, almost as if there's a system glitch that switched things up by accident. I've never, ever seen an EB coach fare MSP-CHI for less than $~55 (give or take), much less anything in the $40s. So, this is strange. Since March 2025 is the better part of a year from now, I'm hoping the expensive fares are either a glitch or come back down to what's been advertised.

I say this because one of the main selling points to Minnesota people, at least, is "taking the nice train to Chicago for only $41, wow!!" I've seen dozens of posts and comments on social media to this effect. If for some reason the subsidy for this service is less than expected, or they are allowing Amtrak to do more dynamic pricing, people will feel like it was a lie or at least bait-and-switch. One of the best parts about the state-sponsored service here in North Carolina is that the prices at least for the Piedmont do not seem to change/surge dynamically.

 

[jis]

Past experience elsewhere has shown that unless the state agency funding the service keeps a tight leash Amtrak can go a bit haywire from time to time. I am hoping that if the Great River outfit is made aware of this they will get on it pronto and get it fixed.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's how it looks in mass media:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/ne...S&cvid=0bc5c0b949d148a898b2e6c98a38d3a3&ei=24

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I just checked for 5/29 and the Borealis came in at $41 for coach and the EB at $77, business on the Borealis was $98, but as bookings increase this will no doubt change.

 

[lordsigma]

That's not correct, though I wish it were (better storage location), it is being stored and serviced at Union Depot; if you look back in this thread I believe some of us were discussing this in March. Ramsey County had to approve a new lease and operating agreement with Amtrak that included the agreements around where and how the train will be stored. Stuff as specific as where dumpsters will be located near the tracks, Amtrak access, etc.

Whoops sorry. I remember reading Midway being the plan at one point but I guess that changed and is outdated. I will flag and redact my post appropriately.

 

[west point]

Here is something. How will the train set for 1340/21 get to MSP? Will it be attached to 7/ 20 or will there be a VIP run to get the train set to MSP?

 

[Amtrak25]

I think we are going to have to wait and see for how they will be shuffling equipment on the remaining 6 Hiawatha frequencies. I for one don't understand it.

If I were King, I would let trains 333/340 as such be, attach trains 1333 and 1340 to them like VIA Rail does with their "J" trains at Brockville (and Hervey Jct), split/merge them at Milwaukee. They could do that in 20 minutes. I don't even think HEP cables need be hooked up between the 2 sections. But I don't know if that breaks any regs in this country.

The combined train 333/1333 would load on the CUS thru track - train 333 from the South Concourse, train 1333 from the North Concourse. All stations between Glenview and Milwaukee on the Borealis would be Receive only northbound / Discharge only southbound. Load them as separate trains unbeknownst to passengers they are physically coupled.

The way they are going to run will anger a lot of Hiawatha passengers, bumping off one of them for each Borealis passenger from south of Milwukee to another frequency, a thruway bus, or their car.

 

[TransitTyrant]

I think we are going to have to wait and see for how they will be shuffling equipment on the remaining 6 Hiawatha frequencies. I for one don't understand it.

If I were King, I would let trains 333/340 as such be, attach trains 1333 and 1340 to them like VIA Rail does with their "J" trains at Brockville (and Hervey Jct), split/merge them at Milwaukee. They could do that in 20 minutes. I don't even think HEP cables need be hooked up between the 2 sections. But I don't know if that breaks any regs in this country.

The combined train 333/1333 would load on the CUS thru track - train 333 from the South Concourse, train 1333 from the North Concourse. All stations between Glenview and Milwaukee on the Borealis would be Receive only northbound / Discharge only southbound. Load them as separate trains unbeknownst to passengers they are physically coupled.

The way they are going to run will anger a lot of Hiawatha passengers, bumping off one of them for each Borealis passenger from south of Milwukee to another frequency, a thruway bus, or their car.

The runs the Borealis is replacing aren’t even the busiest on the route plus I believe once the airport station is completed it will allow for the 8th RT total to start.

 

[Steve4031]

IMHO, the fares posted here encourage people to use the Empire Builder. A roomette is not that much more than BC. At those price points, I would take a roomette over BC every time. The Empire Builder coach seats should be sold as BC seats between Chicago and Milwaukee. Those seats are way better than any of the seats on the Borealis.

 

[lstone19]

I'm not seeing how they'll going to handle equipment. Unless the Borealis equipment piggybacks with Hiawatha equipment, they're going to need a third Hiawatha set.

Currently, one set does 330-331-334-335-338-339-342 while the other does 329*-332-333-336-337-340-341 (*343 Fri eve instead of 329 Sat morning with both sets in Milwaukee Fri overnight). With 1333 and 1340 replacing 333 and 340 respectively, an extra Hiawatha set will be needed in Milwaukee to cover 336 and 337 while the set that arrived Chicago as 332 will sit there until 341. That seems very wasteful so I doubt that's the plan but if it is, with both sets in Chicago from the arrival of 336 until the departure of 337, swapping of sets is possible so one set is not in Milwaukee every night.

 

[lordsigma]

I'm not seeing how they'll going to handle equipment. Unless the Borealis equipment piggybacks with Hiawatha equipment, they're going to need a third Hiawatha set.

Currently, one set does 330-331-334-335-338-339-342 while the other does 329*-332-333-336-337-340-341 (*343 Fri eve instead of 329 Sat morning with both sets in Milwaukee Fri overnight). With 1333 and 1340 replacing 333 and 340 respectively, an extra Hiawatha set will be needed in Milwaukee to cover 336 and 337 while the set that arrived Chicago as 332 will sit there until 341. That seems very wasteful so I doubt that's the plan but if it is, with both sets in Chicago from the arrival of 336 until the departure of 337, swapping of sets is possible so one set is not in Milwaukee every night.

I believe Amtrak has equipment responsibility for the Borealis runs and they will not receive any equipment from the Midwest state owned equipment pool - so no Midwest Chargers and no Midwest Ventures. It will be P42s and Horizons and possibly Am1 Club-Dinettes. I think it's going to be two dedicated Borealis trainsets with P42s and Horizons and separate Hiawatha trainsets that will pull from the Midwest pool that will shoulder the balance of the Hiawatha runs that aren't made with the Borealis sets. I don't think a decision has yet been made on what to do for long term equipment needs on the diesel powered state supported services outside the Northeast except for the Cascades. I wouldn't be surprised to see them exercise some additional diesel only ALC 42 options and some extra Cascades configuration Airo options minus the Cascades paintjob for some of these state supported lines outside the East Coast like Gulf Coast, Borealis, Heartland Flyer etc.

 

[WWW]

Here is something. How will the train set for 1340/21 get to MSP? Will it be attached to 8/ 20 or will there be a VIP run to get the train set to MSP?

It could also be deadheaded attached to the EB #7 the night before.
Time being of essence I don't think the consist will be operated as a revenue trip -
although some of us wouldn't mind riding a deadheading ferry trip.

 

[Amtrak25]

When the Hoosier State existed, it piggybacked onto the Cardinal one day a week in one or both direction, otherwise it made no sense either. I forgot how and when.

 

[TransitTyrant]

I believe Amtrak has equipment responsibility for the Borealis runs and they will not receive any equipment from the Midwest state owned equipment pool - so no Midwest Chargers and no Midwest Ventures. It will be P42s and Horizons and possibly Am1 Club-Dinettes. I think it's going to be two dedicated Borealis trainsets with P42s and Horizons and separate Hiawatha trainsets that will pull from the Midwest pool that will shoulder the balance of the Hiawatha runs that aren't made with the Borealis sets. I don't think a decision has yet been made on what to do for long term equipment needs on the diesel powered state supported services outside the Northeast except for the Cascades. I wouldn't be surprised to see them exercise some additional diesel only ALC 42 options and some extra Cascades configuration Airo options minus the Cascades paintjob for some of these state supported lines outside the East Coast like Gulf Coast, Borealis, Heartland Flyer etc.

Minnesota has mentioned joining the Midwest equipment pool which would mean they’d acquire their own Charger locomotives and Venture cars. When that happens is anyone’s guess.

 

[Amtrak25]

Are they allowed to use the Siemens Midwest equipment on the Borealis ?

 

[jis]

Are they allowed to use the Siemens Midwest equipment on the Borealis ?

I don't think Borealis is allowed to use Midwest Pool Venture equipment at this time. They will use Horizons and Amfleets and P42s.

 

[OmahaRoad]

IMHO, the fares posted here encourage people to use the Empire Builder. A roomette is not that much more than BC. At those price points, I would take a roomette over BC every time. The Empire Builder coach seats should be sold as BC seats between Chicago and Milwaukee. Those seats are way better than any of the seats on the Borealis.

Fair enough, but there's only going to be ~14 or so business class seats anyway, as compared to probably ~270+ regular coach seats priced starting at $41. Even if those prices get pushed up some at peak times, they'll still be way less than a roomette, and probably less than the exorbitant coach prices I've seen (and paid) for coach on the stretch of the EB since Amtrak started their "yield management/dynamic pricing."

Also, I feel the primary market for the Borealis is not people looking for Amtrak's business class service, which doesn't offer all that much, in my experience. I looked at multiple random dates in May and June for MSP-CHI and the base Borealis coach fares were starting at $41 as advertised.

 

[moselman66]

Here's a visualization on the trainset rotation issue which probably requires deadheading or (far less likely) a third Hiawatha set.

Current Hiawatha schedule -- two train sets.



We know that Borealis requires two train sets for a total four -- two Hiawatha + two Borealis.

The challenge with Borealis replacing 1 of 7 Hiawatha each way is that you end up with a Hiawatha train set in the wrong city.
Here's how things look if the Borealis trains are dedicated Borealis-only equipment (red bold font):



There's no equipment in Milwaukee to do the 1:05pm southbound. The green Hiawatha trainset is sitting idle in Chicago but you need it in Milwaukee. Two ways to solve things in this situation:

--Deadhead the green Hiawatha trainset behind the Borealis both ways. Essentially the green trainset would do what it does today prior to Borealis. It would be nice if the green trainset could instead run as an additional revenue frequency but we're not yet at the point where more CHI-MKE-CHI trains are allowed.

--Have a third Hiawatha trainset sit in MIlwaukee which only covers the two trips in white. Painfully wasteful.

I'd be pretty surprised (and a little sickened!) if a third Hiawatha set was acquired just to do a single existing round trip, so in this scenario I can't come up with any reasonable option but the Hiawatha set being pulled along behind Borealis.

----------------

Would it help if the Borealis trainsets were used on some additional Hiawatha runs? Not really -- you still have the same fundemental issue of no train in Milwaukee to run the 1:05pm southbound / 3:15pm northbound. By using Borealis on other Hiawatha runs the green Hiawatha set #2 could be mostly replaced by Borealis, only needed for that mid-day gap and idle the rest of the day, four trainsets total. But in this scenario there's an issue where the Borealis trainset overnights in Milwaukee but needs to originate Chicago the next morning. And again, you may think "but couldn't that mostly idle green Hiawatha set be used so Borealis doesn't overnight the "wrong" city?" But once again we're in the position where the idle green Hiawatha set isn't where you need it to be to fill in and let the Borealis train set terminate in Chicago each night.



In theory if the only difference for the Borealis was a cafe car then it would not matter which train sets spent the night where. The cafe car would be ditched in Chicago in the evening before the train headed back to MKE, and in the morning it would be added to whicever train set was positioned for the 11:05am northbound for the trip back to MSP. But in that scenario you'd truly be rotating all the Hiawahta equipment so that means somtimes Venture coaches to MSP plus potential equiment issue with Hiawatha being push-pull and Boralis not. And again that's only if all equipment was equal, no variation, no state ownership or pool participation, so that makes this idea unrealisitc as well.

-------

So across all these possible scenarios by far the most likely seems that a Hiawatha set will be repositioned behind the Borealis each direction, essentially mimicking the revenue trips it currently runs but Borealis is replacing. That two dedicated Borealis train sets (as expected) and the two existing Hiawatha sets cover the six remaining round trips.