When/Why was Sunset trimmed from Miami to Sanford?

[James]

Looking at historical timetables, I noticed that the Sunset Limited used to run all the way to Miami, but then was cut back to Sanford/Orlando. Does anyone know when and more importantly why these changes occurred? Was it a lack of ridership?

 

[amtrakwolverine]

it was cut due to damage from hurricane Katrina but now its more a political thing.

At first (until late October 2005) it was truncated to a San Antonio-to-Los Angeles service; since then (from late October 2005 on) it has been truncated to a New Orleans-to-Los Angeles service. As time has passed, particularly since the January 2006 completion of the rebuilding of damaged tracks east of New Orleans by their owner CSX Transportation Inc., the obstacles to restoration of the Sunset Limited's full route have been more managerial and political than physical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunset_Limited

 

[jackal]

I think the question was why it was cut from Miami to Orlando--apparently, prior to Katrina and the cut to New Orleans, there was a previous cut from Miami to Orlando. The SL must just be the red-headed steptrain of Amtrak's system...

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I think the question was why it was cut from Miami to Orlando--apparently, prior to Katrina and the cut to New Orleans, there was a previous cut from Miami to Orlando. The SL must just be the red-headed steptrain of Amtrak's system...

didn't know it was cut before

 

[AlanB]

It was cut back to Orlando in part because of ridership, but in large part because Sanford was setup to handle Superliner cars because of the Auto Train. By dropping Miami it made things easier and cheaper in terms of maintenance.

 

[Trogdor]

I recall that the train was originally cut back to Sanford, right at the maintenance base. However, I guess there was enough demand among passengers that they eventually (six months, a year?) extended the train to Orlando, with a deadhead move to Sanford.

 

[PRR 60]

It also cut about 14 hours of round trip travel out of the schedule permitting better recovery from late arrivals for train servicing. Once in a while, the Sunset was known to arrive late in Florida.

 

[frj1983]

It also cut about 14 hours of round trip travel out of the schedule permitting better recovery from late arrivals for train servicing. Once in a while, the Sunset was known to arrive late in Florida.

You're kidding late!!!! :blink:

Well I guess that's better than not arriving at all which is currently the case.

 

[Chatter163]

The Miami-Los Angeles route was introduced in 1993 but was cut back to Sanford at the end of 1997 because, given the schedule and patterns of lateness, another crew change was becoming necessary for the short Orlando-Miami portion. The cut was a cost-saving move, plus the Sanford yard was better able to handle the Superliner maintenance.

Amtrak quickly realized that Making this cut caused the route to miss out on the Orlando market, which was so close by, so in summer of 1998 Winter Park and Orlando stops were restored.

http://www.unitedrail.org/1999/03/05/sugge...lorida-service/

 

[GP35]

Jacksonville goes from 121,000 to 67,000 in 5 years.

Tampa bay goes from 149,000 to 39,000 in 5 years.

Someone was very stupid or trying really hard to destroy Amtrak.

 

[Walt]

In reading this, I have a few questions.

Does the SL still end at New Orleans? Or does it now actually continue onto FL? Amtrak's website seems to indicate that New Orleans is current it, but I also realize that the website might not be up to date.

Did the SL ever actually have Sanford as a stop? I thought Sanford was Autotrain only, and passengers without a car would have little desire to actually choose Sanford as their destination.

 

[the_traveler]

The SL now only runs from LAX to NOL. The service east of NOL to FL was "temporarily suspended" after Katrina (and still states so ) - but how many years ago was that? If they were to suspend service totally, they would be required to give 180 days notice. However, by "temporarily suspending service", they don't!

The car situation is partially why they extended the run back to Orlando. And even if they do restore service to FL, it could not stop in Sanford. The passenger station is closed. The Auto Train station is another station.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

And then there is this about the Sunset Limited. It is actually possilbly the oldest name train on U. S. rails. It goes back to maybe early 1900's at least. At times it was called just the"Sunset" and not "Sunset Limited". Way, Way along ago it went New Orleans to LA and up the coast to San Francisoco. That was maybe one hundred years ago.

But the point I want to make---to favor Amtrak---is that most of those pre-Amtrak years it went just NOL to LA.

By extending it to Florida, (variously Miami, Orlando,Sanford) was one of the bolder braver actions that Amtrak took on.

How sad that that is at least, uh, "temporarily" gone. After Amtrak's own innovative extension of it to Florida back awhile.

A similar innovative move Amtrak made was to create the Caost Starlight out of several train names and go all the way form Seattle to LA. In fact, at first, it even went from Seattle through to San Diego. But, as with the SL, chronic lateness made them get over tryng to get it straight to San Diego before the night was over. But at least it goes as far as it goes. Before Amtrak, no trip (in my memory that is) actually did that.

 

[MrFSS]

Here's the Amtrak schedule when it went all the way.

 

[edding]

Here's the Amtrak schedule when it went all the way.

As I have mentioned before, I took my kids when they were about 5 & 8 on the Sunset on this schedule in the late 80's,I think, when it rann overnight to Tempe so they could experience a sleeper train. We got a family bedroom and it was a great experience. I sure wish that a) it ran to Phoenix/Tempe; B) was an overnight train; and c) was daily. If wishes had wings, I could fly myself to LA( but I'd still rather take the train).

Ed

 

[James]

Thanks for your responses. Delays aside, do you think that there was sufficient ridership to support that segment?

 

[the_traveler]

Remember those days when you could do a same day connection (or at least a guaranteed connection) between the SL and CS? And actually take a train to/from Phoenix? And take the SL from LAX-JAX and connect to a northbound Silver train?

 

[Guest_Ben_*]

I don't know about the ridership, James, but I would think that there would be a big market for Miami service, as the West Palm Beach to Miami urban area is HUGE. Can others fill me in on this? How were passenger loadings on the Sunset south of Orlando?

 

[Chatter163]

When I last took the SL, it was 12 hours late, so we terminated in Sanford. A bus then took us to WP and ORL. This saved turnaround time. That was not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Jacksonville goes from 121,000 to 67,000 in 5 years.Tampa bay goes from 149,000 to 39,000 in 5 years.

Someone was very stupid or trying really hard to destroy Amtrak.

Why do you keep acting like Amtrak exists within the confines of the Sunset Limited?

You'd make a rotten chess player, methinks.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

The observation as to passenger counts is quite relevant. They tossed away a large market when they truncated Sunset. We probably rode that train 20 times in the Orlando to Jax corridor, and also rode it as far as NOL and there was always a very good passenger count, especially at Orlando and WPK. The observation of stupidity or maliciousness is right on the money as far as I'm concerned. I'm HERE where that train ran, and I RODE it many times. As such, I think those observations are credible. Certainly more so than for somebody that hasn't. Remember that by truncating Sunset they destroyed the southern transcontinental route. Amtrak is a transportation NETWORK, not a collection of unrelated route segments. It's a transportation SYSTEM, and they shot themselves in the foot, (or perhaps someplace else which makes sitting down painful), and blew a large hole in that SYSTEM, that NETWORK, when they truncated Sunset. If you take one tire off of your car, you still have almost the whole car there, but it doesn't run worth a darn.

While the rails were being rebuilt they had an excuse. That excuse evaporated when CSX did such a great job of repairing the rail. If Amtrak doesn't like us saying what we're saying, they have the option of restoring the route, and then we'll stop saying those things. Until that happens, I wholeheartedly agree with GP35's comment. If Amtrak would stop playing chess, and stop holding Sunset hostage hoping for a ransom from the affected States, if they'd start running the railroad as if they realized it was a transportation SYSTEM, they'd be a lot better off. And so would their passenger base.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

In a world where Amtrak has an unlimited budget, your right.

This isn't that world. Amtrak needs to concentrate on the health of their overall system. I believe its better off without a LAX - ORL through train. I suspect Kummant agrees.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

This isn't that world. Amtrak needs to concentrate on the health of their overall system. I believe its better off without a LAX - ORL through train. I suspect Kummant agrees.

I think Congress should give Amtrak more money so that Amtrak can buy more equipment and restore this service.

Of course, that new equipment isn't likely to show up overnight.

 

[RTOlson]

I starting to think some members of the board believe that truncating Sunset was like taking a wheel off an automobile -- the car can't operate while missing a wheel. Others seem to believe it's like a shattered auto window -- the car runs, but it's missing something.

Personally, I'm in the broken auto window camp. Sure it looks dang ugly using black tarp to cover where the window used to be, but the car is still running. I do believe it's in Amtrak's best interests to fix the window as quickly as possible.

And needless to say there are other broken windows in the imaginary Amtrak car -- Los Vegas, Phoenix and others come to mind. I don't know if Amtrak will be able to fix them all, but I hope they or another rail provider can.

 

[Walt]

Why is having a SL connection with a Silver in the Orlando area, for passengers to complete a journey to Miami, so wrong? Matter of fact, with quite a few passengers getting off the Silvers in Orlando, there should be quite a few available seats for connecting SL passengers.