Amtrak Issues RFP for New Viewliners

[Bob Dylan]

If you don't take it from everyone's pockets there won't be any rail. But, there also won't be any highways, no airline service, no bus routes, etc
Paying for what is needed with ticket money will never get it done, no matter if it is rail, airlines, roads, etc. Everyone has to pay, like it or not.

I don't want to be paying for a lot of things the government does. I don't have many options not to, though.

But that's not really the issue. It's not about getting things done or not getting things done, but about when it's right to force others to pay for what we believe should be done even when they disagree.

Sure, if you don't force everyone to pay there might not be rail... but perhaps it's more just to accept the lack of rail than to force everyone else to pay for it when they don't want it in the first place. Without everyone else fitting the bill there also won't be a ladder to the moon, but that doesn't mean we should get to work making everyone pay!

This sounds like the ramblings in the NARP newsletter,everyone has something they dont like that the

government uses our money for but as our high school civics taught us the common good is what matters!

All trains need more $$$,not just AMTRAK, I dont especially like it when airlines talk about making profits and

losses this quarter when they are totally dependant on govt. subsidyto exist!(aka corporate welfare)

As an old DC hand I might see too much politics in everything but seems like to me everyone has their hand

out for the stimulus $$$,personally I want more to go to rail transit and NONE to wars and bailing out greedy

billionaiure crooks that havent gone to jail yet! Forgot the highways,were in the midst of toll road mania

down here in Central Texas where the govt.(us) puts up the $$$,guarantees the profits and lets foriegn

companies rake it in!Most Texans are voting with their cars as revenue is nowhere near what was expected/promised!

If we ever can get our light rail to run it will be welcomed by thousands of stuck in traffic folks!

 

[AKA]

Honestly, I think that's a bit of a ridiculous distinction.

Well no, it's the whole point: the question was how this was going to be paid for. That the administration supports rail is nice and all, but that in itself is not funding. The government's part of the funding is the money that the administration and congress force taxpayers to hand over... which is quite a different thing in my book. As I said, it's really easy to support things; it's a more dramatic thing to force others to support it as well.

To further support the distinction, look at other forms of support and harm politicians can do, ranging from mucking about with regulation through the FRA and others, to reconsidering regulations that harm rail by making manufacture of equipment more expensive, to simple rhetorical motions, there's a ton of non-funding actions the politicians can take. But that wasn't the question.

Personally, regardless of my own feelings about rail I think it's extremely important to keep in mind that the financial support of rail amounts to forcing the whole country to value the mode the way we do. EVEN IF WE'RE RIGHT, and can provide reasonable, rational arguments for why the whole country should take on our values, I consider it both morally and practically questionable to impose values like that--to take away peoples' freedoms for their own good.

So, how will this be paid for? Simple: we have an administration that's eager to force everyone to pay for it, regardless of their feelings on the matter, because it believes it to be for the best. If you're ok with that then great, and congratulations, but don't pretend things are otherwise.

We all pay for airports and raods. I dont fly. Can I please have my money back ?

 

[jis]

But that's not really the issue. It's not about getting things done or not getting things done, but about when it's right to force others to pay for what we believe should be done even when they disagree.

At the end of the day that is precisely the issue unfortunately. And that is the reason that we choose to have a representative government, imperfect as it is bound to be, so as to try to strike a balance that is reasonably acceptable to most, most of the time, and is seen to be arrived at through deliberation that has legitimacy in the eyes of most, most of the time. Unless there is a desire to share and cross support each others interest in the community soon there will be no community or nation left to talk about. The business about funding transport and infrastructure is but a microcosm of this bigger scheme of things.

 

[jis]

no viewliner coaches. amtrak NEEDS single level coaches also.

That's probably what the additional 75 car option is for.

Not so according to Amtrak. See http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/am...r-interest.html

The breakdown for the option of 70 cars is for: 10 sleepers, 15 baggage-dorm cars, 15 diners, and 30 baggage cars.

The core 130 car order would be for: 25 sleeping cars, 25 baggage-dorm cars, 25 diners, and 55 baggage cars.

All this from the horse's mouth in the form of Amtrak’s William F. Durham, program director for capital acquisition.

Apparently Alstom, Kawasaki, Nippon Sharyo, Sumitomo, CAF, and Bombardier, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting in Hialeah, which bodes well from a competitive pricing standpoint.

Also reported in the same article, Alstom, Bombardier Transportation, MotivePower Inc., (Wabtec), Siemens Transportation, GE, EMD, and Patentes Talgo SA, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting for the RFP for electric locomotives.

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

This of course reopens the question about LD single level coaches. It looks like the Amfleet IIs will see service for quite a while longer, both in Coach and Lounge forms.

 

[Bob Dylan]

no viewliner coaches. amtrak NEEDS single level coaches also.

That's probably what the additional 75 car option is for.

Not so according to Amtrak. See http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/am...r-interest.html

The breakdown for the option of 70 cars is for: 10 sleepers, 15 baggage-dorm cars, 15 diners, and 30 baggage cars.

The core 130 car order would be for: 25 sleeping cars, 25 baggage-dorm cars, 25 diners, and 55 baggage cars.

All this from the horse's mouth in the form of Amtrak’s William F. Durham, program director for capital acquisition.

Apparently Alstom, Kawasaki, Nippon Sharyo, Sumitomo, CAF, and Bombardier, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting in Hialeah, which bodes well from a competitive pricing standpoint.

Also reported in the same article, Alstom, Bombardier Transportation, MotivePower Inc., (Wabtec), Siemens Transportation, GE, EMD, and Patentes Talgo SA, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting for the RFP for electric locomotives.

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

This of course reopens the question about LD singel level coaches. It looks like the Amfleet IIs will see service for quite a while longer, both in Coach and Lounge forms.

Conspicuosly absent from the list is GM!If they could do it in WWII why not now?Since we own GM now why

not put someone like AMTRAK Joe in charge and start hireing all the thousands of skilled industrial workers

that have bee/are being layed off to crank out train equipment?Im shocked that the rust belt politicians havent

thought of this, especially Michigans so called statesmen/stateswomen!lets not let anymore big $$ contracts go

to foriegn companies when we so despereatly need manufacturing jobs!Makes sense no?

 

[jis]

Also reported in the same article, Alstom, Bombardier Transportation, MotivePower Inc., (Wabtec), Siemens Transportation, GE, EMD, and Patentes Talgo SA, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting for the RFP for electric locomotives.

Conspicuosly absent from the list is GM!If they could do it in WWII why not now?Since we own GM now why

not put someone like AMTRAK Joe in charge and start hireing all the thousands of skilled industrial workers

that have bee/are being layed off to crank out train equipment?Im shocked that the rust belt politicians havent

thought of this, especially Michigans so called statesmen/stateswomen!lets not let anymore big $$ contracts go

to foriegn companies when we so despereatly need manufacturing jobs!Makes sense no?

But EMD, the old GM Electro-Motive Division, and now Electro-Motive Diesel, is on the list. I am not sure GM, the automotive car maker, would necessarily be a good thing to add to the mix. They will first have to learn from scratch how to make railroad stuff.

 

[Donctor]

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

I figured there'd be 30 or so diners, not 25. Given that 17 are needed for three trains, the 25 isn't much of an expansion. I figure 21 or so are needed if the Lake Shore gets equipped (the LSL needs three plus a spare in CHI), so the other four really would be good for only a fifth train. Which train will that be? A new Silver? A new Broadway? I personally have no idea whatsoever, but I'm not guessing that there will be incredibly many new trains.

 

[MikefromCrete]

no viewliner coaches. amtrak NEEDS single level coaches also.

That's probably what the additional 75 car option is for.

Not so according to Amtrak. See http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/am...r-interest.html

The breakdown for the option of 70 cars is for: 10 sleepers, 15 baggage-dorm cars, 15 diners, and 30 baggage cars.

The core 130 car order would be for: 25 sleeping cars, 25 baggage-dorm cars, 25 diners, and 55 baggage cars.

All this from the horse's mouth in the form of Amtrak’s William F. Durham, program director for capital acquisition.

Apparently Alstom, Kawasaki, Nippon Sharyo, Sumitomo, CAF, and Bombardier, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting in Hialeah, which bodes well from a competitive pricing standpoint.

Also reported in the same article, Alstom, Bombardier Transportation, MotivePower Inc., (Wabtec), Siemens Transportation, GE, EMD, and Patentes Talgo SA, showed up at the pre-proposal meeting for the RFP for electric locomotives.

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

This of course reopens the question about LD singel level coaches. It looks like the Amfleet IIs will see service for quite a while longer, both in Coach and Lounge forms.

Conspicuosly absent from the list is GM!If they could do it in WWII why not now?Since we own GM now why

not put someone like AMTRAK Joe in charge and start hireing all the thousands of skilled industrial workers

that have bee/are being layed off to crank out train equipment?Im shocked that the rust belt politicians havent

thought of this, especially Michigans so called statesmen/stateswomen!lets not let anymore big $$ contracts go

to foriegn companies when we so despereatly need manufacturing jobs!Makes sense no?

Well, General Motors isn't in the locomotive building business anymore since they sold Electro-Motive a few years ago, so they would have to start from scratch. They could sell one of their old auto plants to one of the foreign firms needing a U.S. base to meet the "Build America" quotas in any government-funded contract.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

I figured there'd be 30 or so diners, not 25. Given that 17 are needed for three trains, the 25 isn't much of an expansion. I figure 21 or so are needed if the Lake Shore gets equipped (the LSL needs three plus a spare in CHI), so the other four really would be good for only a fifth train. Which train will that be? A new Silver? A new Broadway? I personally have no idea whatsoever, but I'm not guessing that there will be incredibly many new trains.

The add-on is for 15 additional diners, so that would make a total of 40, enough for some kind of expansion.

 

[cpamtfan]

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

I figured there'd be 30 or so diners, not 25. Given that 17 are needed for three trains, the 25 isn't much of an expansion. I figure 21 or so are needed if the Lake Shore gets equipped (the LSL needs three plus a spare in CHI), so the other four really would be good for only a fifth train. Which train will that be? A new Silver? A new Broadway? I personally have no idea whatsoever, but I'm not guessing that there will be incredibly many new trains.

If they get the Silver Meteor, that opens up some more diners, which might help slightly. Also the new diners won't need as much mantienence as the current diners do, so that should also help.

cpamtfan-Peter

 

[jis]

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

I figured there'd be 30 or so diners, not 25. Given that 17 are needed for three trains, the 25 isn't much of an expansion. I figure 21 or so are needed if the Lake Shore gets equipped (the LSL needs three plus a spare in CHI), so the other four really would be good for only a fifth train. Which train will that be? A new Silver? A new Broadway? I personally have no idea whatsoever, but I'm not guessing that there will be incredibly many new trains.

If they get the Silver Meteor, that opens up some more diners, which might help slightly. Also the new diners won't need as much mantienence as the current diners do, so that should also help.

Also note that if the options are exercised there would be a total of 40 Diners which by your (Amtking) own admission would be some 19 more than are needed for the current trains.

In addition to perhaps creating another NYP - CHI and/or NYP - Florida train, here is one other possibility.... given the additional Sleepers and Diners conceivably something like the CONO could be reverted back to single level and extended to Florida while the Superliners thus released could be used to make Sunset daily all the way between LAX and NOL, and also augment some other Super equipped trains. Just a random thought with not much real analysis put behind it yet on my part.

 

[Donctor]

In addition to perhaps creating another NYP - CHI and/or NYP - Florida train, here is one other possibility.... given the additional Sleepers and Diners conceivably something like the CONO could be reverted back to single level and extended to Florida while the Superliners thus released could be used to make Sunset daily all the way between LAX and NOL, and also augment some other Super equipped trains. Just a random thought with not much real analysis put behind it yet on my part.

Wait, is it 40 Viewliner diners, or 40 diners including what we have now? If it's 40 including the Heritage diners, that wouldn't make sense. I've heard (from multiple sources) that the Heritage diners are going.

 

[jis]

Also take a look at An Amtrak RFP This Fall? in the July issue of Railway Age.

 

[jis]

Wait, is it 40 Viewliner diners, or 40 diners including what we have now? If it's 40 including the Heritage diners, that wouldn't make sense. I've heard (from multiple sources) that the Heritage diners are going.

It would be a total of 40 Viewliner Diners, 25 in the base order and 15 through exercise of option.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

I figured there'd be 30 or so diners, not 25. Given that 17 are needed for three trains, the 25 isn't much of an expansion. I figure 21 or so are needed if the Lake Shore gets equipped (the LSL needs three plus a spare in CHI), so the other four really would be good for only a fifth train. Which train will that be? A new Silver? A new Broadway? I personally have no idea whatsoever, but I'm not guessing that there will be incredibly many new trains.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

TWELVE good and functioning diners are required to service current trains. 4 sets for each of three trains, the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Crescent. An additional three would be required for the Lake Shore Limited. The 5 cars are rotating protection spares (which are an always required element in any system) and to allow for maintainance room in the roster.

Here's my breakdown:

First, give that with three Florida trains we could get it down to 10 sets for the three of them.

Florida Trains: 10 sets of equipment.

Lake Shore Limited: 3 sets of equipment.

Crescent: 4 sets of equipment.

Broadway Limited: 3 sets of equipment.

Total required: 20 cars. 4 spares, 1 each in New York, Chicago, Miami, and one for maintainence protection. Remember, these cars are new. They are not going to be as problematic as cars built in the 1940s.

 

[cpamtfan]

The total number of Diners surprises me and would be indicative of a desire to expand single level LD service in some way.

I figured there'd be 30 or so diners, not 25. Given that 17 are needed for three trains, the 25 isn't much of an expansion. I figure 21 or so are needed if the Lake Shore gets equipped (the LSL needs three plus a spare in CHI), so the other four really would be good for only a fifth train. Which train will that be? A new Silver? A new Broadway? I personally have no idea whatsoever, but I'm not guessing that there will be incredibly many new trains.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

TWELVE good and functioning diners are required to service current trains. 4 sets for each of three trains, the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Crescent. An additional three would be required for the Lake Shore Limited. The 5 cars are rotating protection spares (which are an always required element in any system) and to allow for maintainance room in the roster.

Here's my breakdown:

First, give that with three Florida trains we could get it down to 10 sets for the three of them.

Florida Trains: 10 sets of equipment.

Lake Shore Limited: 3 sets of equipment.

Crescent: 4 sets of equipment.

Broadway Limited: 3 sets of equipment.

Total required: 20 cars. 4 spares, 1 each in New York, Chicago, Miami, and one for maintainence protection. Remember, these cars are new. They are not going to be as problematic as cars built in the 1940s.

I don't think you could get the Silver Service sets down to ten, but eleven is quite easily possible. Also don't forget the Cardinal, they may wan't that train with a full diner or better sightseeing car . Also there will still be Viewliner Prototype Diner 8400. So if you keep the Cardinal to tri-weekly/2 sets for now, it could use two of the other diners avalible, and still have one avalible for inspection, etc.

cpamtfan-Peter

 

[Donctor]

It would be a total of 40 Viewliner Diners, 25 in the base order and 15 through exercise of option.

Oh, I entirely misunderstood what was being said.

 

[Donctor]

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
TWELVE good and functioning diners are required to service current trains. 4 sets for each of three trains, the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Crescent. An additional three would be required for the Lake Shore Limited. The 5 cars are rotating protection spares (which are an always required element in any system) and to allow for maintainance room in the roster.

Here's my breakdown:

First, give that with three Florida trains we could get it down to 10 sets for the three of them.

Total required: 20 cars. 4 spares, 1 each in New York, Chicago, Miami, and one for maintainence protection. Remember, these cars are new. They are not going to be as problematic as cars built in the 1940s.

I'm pretty sure that three Florida trains would need more than 10 equipment sets.

If the cars are new, wouldn't Amtrak want MORE spares, just in case these untested cars develop defects early on and need to be returned to the manufacturer?

 

[jis]

I'm pretty sure that three Florida trains would need more than 10 equipment sets.
If the cars are new, wouldn't Amtrak want MORE spares, just in case these untested cars develop defects early on and need to be returned to the manufacturer?

I agree that most likely three Florida trains would require at least 11 consists.

As for spares, I don't think this will be a huge issue since there is not going to be a flash cut one fine morning from all old cars to all new cars. There will a considerable time when both types will be operational hence there will be plenty of spare floating around to handle possible defect fixing in the new cars.

 

[Donctor]

As for spares, I don't think this will be a huge issue since there is not going to be a flash cut one fine morning from all old cars to all new cars. There will a considerable time when both types will be operational hence there will be plenty of spare floating around to handle possible defect fixing in the new cars.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Now that I think about it, weren't the original Viewliners delivered at a rate of 4 a month, or something along those lines?

Now, my question is this: Where do we think the diners will first run in service? If there's a new Broadway, I could see them there.

 

[bretton88]

Come to think of it, is there any possibility these viewliners will run west of Chicago?

 

[battalion51]

The only Viewliners I think you will potentially see west of Chicago on a regular basis is the baggage cars. Amtrak is likely to stay with its current general fleet utilization with Viewliners east of the Mississippi and Superliners west of it (with a few exceptions like the Capitol and AT).

 

[MattW]

Would they use Viewliner Baggages on the western LDs or are they doing something with the bilevels? That wouldn't be the worst looking train, but it'd be odd.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Would they use Viewliner Baggages on the western LDs or are they doing something with the bilevels? That wouldn't be the worst looking train, but it'd be odd.

Not much odder then Heritage baggage cars on Superliners.

 

[AlanB]

You'll see the Viewliner baggage cars through out the entire Amtrak system, the Heritage cars will be retired.

As for the Viewliner Dining car situation, 1 car out for inspection is not enough. Every car needs a two week annual inspection, so with 25 dining cars initially, that's basically one car out of service all year long.

But now you have to deal with the 92 day inspections, which require 3 days out of service each time. Three days times 4 inspections for each car is 12, times 25 means that you have to have at least one car out of service for 300 days out of the 365 days in a year.

And that still leaves no margin for problems and bad orders.

So I'd say at a minimum, one must assume that 3 diners will be out of service at any given point during the year for inspections and/or problems.