Edmonton, Canada

[Rafi]

If Toronto and Montreal are options and you're up for a round robin, here's what I'd suggest:

Take the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to Buffalo, and transfer to the Maple Leaf to Toronto (again, a long layover is the negative aspect here; you could, as jimhudson alludes, take Wolverine 350 to Detroit and get a cab or bus to take you across the border to the Windsor, ON station, but it's not a guaranteed connection and could be a hassle--not sure).

See Toronto for a day or two

Take VIA Rail from Toronto to Montreal, which is a 4.5 hour trip. Montreal is fantastic--I prefer it to Toronto as it really feels like you're in Europe in Old Town. You can also consider a trip up to Quebec City which is supposed to be fantastic as well.

Return to Chicago via the Adirondack connecting to the Lake Shore Limited in Schenectady; the Adirondack is very scenic, to boot, and it's a guaranteed connection to the Lake Shore.

In summary, travel time is:

21 hours to Toronto via Lake Shore/Maple Leaf; 13 hours to Toronto via Wolverine/VIA (on your own to get from Detroit to Windsor; 2 hours 40 mins to make the non-guaranteed connection)

1/2 day between Toronto and Montreal (times vary)

1/3 day between Montreal and Quebec City (times vary; optional side trip--you'd have to backtrack to Montreal to come home)

25 hours from Montreal back to Chicago

-Rafi

 

[Bob Dylan]

If Toronto and Montreal are options and you're up for a round robin, here's what I'd suggest:
Take the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to Buffalo, and transfer to the Maple Leaf to Toronto (again, a long layover is the negative aspect here; you could, as jimhudson alludes, take Wolverine 350 to Detroit and get a cab or bus to take you across the border to the Windsor, ON station, but it's not a guaranteed connection and could be a hassle--not sure).

See Toronto for a day or two

Take VIA Rail from Toronto to Montreal, which is a 4.5 hour trip. Montreal is fantastic--I prefer it to Toronto as it really feels like you're in Europe in Old Town. You can also consider a trip up to Quebec City which is supposed to be fantastic as well.

Return to Chicago via the Adirondack connecting to the Lake Shore Limited in Schenectady; the Adirondack is very scenic, to boot, and it's a guaranteed connection to the Lake Shore.

In summary, travel time is:

21 hours to Toronto

1/2 day between Toronto and Montreal (times vary)

1/3 day between Montreal and Quebec City (times vary; optional side trip--you'd have to backtrack to Montreal to come home)

25 hours from Montreal back to Chicago

-Rafi

Thanks Rafi,Ive gone to Toronto several times from CHI,the early Wolverine to DET is an easy trip,DET has

very good connections with Windsor both taxi and bus/the VIA trip to Toronto is a smooth ride!If going on the LSL

Buffalo is a pretty interesting place(see previous posts)and you can get off @ Depew Station,ride the bus downtown,

have luch and sight see and catch the Maple Leaf to NIAGARA FALLS!/you get into Toronto about 8PM,usually on time

depending on the hassle @ the border(Passport is mandatory now!)The rest is spot on,I think shes gonna make this

trip,wouldnt mind a repeat myself! :lol: (catch the Maple Leaf @ downtown Exchange Street Station!)

 

[JSmith]

The Ocean from Montreal to Halifax,NSis a great trip and the ferry to Maine and riding down to BOS/NYP is a nice trip!

Jim, this is a neat idea that I hadn't thought of before. I have relatives in Halifax and I've been musing on a family vacation by train to see them. VIA to Halifax and then the Downeaster to Boston and the LSL back home would be an interesting round trip (and cheaper than taking the Ocean both ways).

 

[Ispolkom]

The Ocean from Montreal to Halifax,NSis a great trip and the ferry to Maine and riding down to BOS/NYP is a nice trip!

Jim, this is a neat idea that I hadn't thought of before. I have relatives in Halifax and I've been musing on a family vacation by train to see them. VIA to Halifax and then the Downeaster to Boston and the LSL back home would be an interesting round trip (and cheaper than taking the Ocean both ways).

I just returned from a couple of weeks in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. Halifax is a wonderful city, and has pretty good public transportation. We uniformly encountered friendly and helpful people, great seafood, and sunny weather. The only negative was the tardiness of the Sydney-Port aux Basques ferry.

 

[Ryan]

You can also consider a trip up to Quebec City which is supposed to be fantastic as well.

I've never been to Montreal to make the comparison, but QC is very old-world Europe like, and a fantastic place to visit. In 7 years in the Navy, I've also never heard a bad thing about Halifax - I think that it's the hands-down winner for the best liberty port on the east coast.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Ocean from Montreal to Halifax,NSis a great trip and the ferry to Maine and riding down to BOS/NYP is a nice trip!

Jim, this is a neat idea that I hadn't thought of before. I have relatives in Halifax and I've been musing on a family vacation by train to see them. VIA to Halifax and then the Downeaster to Boston and the LSL back home would be an interesting round trip (and cheaper than taking the Ocean both ways).

Thanks for the re-enforcement, think Ill book thius trip myself,its a gtreat trip but not in the winter! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[AlanB]

the border(Passport is mandatory now!)

Just for the record, a Passport is not mandatory for a land or water crossing into Canada from the US. All of the following are acceptable forms of ID to cross the border with.

Passport

Passport card

Trusted Traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST)

Enhanced driver's license

Merchant Mariner document

Military ID combined with a copy of military orders

Form I-872, American Indian Card

Amish and Mennonite Old Order only:

- copy of birth certificate, and

- signed copy of IRS form 4029, application for exemption from Social Security and Medicare taxes and waiver of benefits.

I will grant that it's rather unlikely that many people will have the last two forms, but still a passport is not manadatory.

 

[Everydaymatters]

the border(Passport is mandatory now!)

Just for the record, a Passport is not mandatory for a land or water crossing into Canada from the US. All of the following are acceptable forms of ID to cross the border with.

Passport

Passport card

Trusted Traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST)

Enhanced driver's license

Merchant Mariner document

Military ID combined with a copy of military orders

Form I-872, American Indian Card

Amish and Mennonite Old Order only:

- copy of birth certificate, and

- signed copy of IRS form 4029, application for exemption from Social Security and Medicare taxes and waiver of benefits.

I will grant that it's rather unlikely that many people will have the last two forms, but still a passport is not manadatory.

I also thought passports were mandatory now. Thanks for the clarification, Alan. I just had a discussion about this last week with my daughter and I have emailed what you said over to her.

 

[jis]

One more clarification, since many foreigners read this board, the list provided is for US citizens. Passport is still necessary for those from other countries. Of course there is a slightly different list for Canadian citizens. Also for permanent residents of the US (i.e. Green Card holders) I am not sure what the requirements are.

Another thing to be aware of, and this is subject to verification, is that if you are a foreign passport holder and are entering the US by land either using a visa or a visa waiver, you *may* (not necessarily always will) be charged a fee for processing your entry at the border. I guess that is to pay for the CBP to lug their finger print and photo taking outfit with their laptop around

This last one I became aware of when on one of my several jaunts back from Canada by the Adirondack, I happened to help out a hapless Danish lady with a few US dollars, since CBP would not accept the fees in any other form.

 

[wayman]

One more clarification, since many foreigners read this board, the list provided is for US citizens. Passport is still necessary for those from other countries. Of course there is a slightly different list for Canadian citizens. Also for permanent residents of the US (i.e. Green Card holders) I am not sure what the requirements are.
Another thing to be aware of, and this is subject to verification, is that if you are a foreign passport holder and are entering the US by land either using a visa or a visa waiver, you *may* (not necessarily always will) be charged a fee for processing your entry at the border. I guess that is to pay for the CBP to lug their finger print and photo taking outfit with their laptop around

This last one I became aware of when on one of my several jaunts back from Canada by the Adirondack, I happened to help out a hapless Danish lady with a few US dollars, since CBP would not accept the fees in any other form.

They only accepted cash? That sounds suspiciously more like a ... "fee" ... than a fee!

 

[AlanB]

One more clarification, since many foreigners read this board, the list provided is for US citizens. Passport is still necessary for those from other countries. Of course there is a slightly different list for Canadian citizens. Also for permanent residents of the US (i.e. Green Card holders) I am not sure what the requirements are.
Another thing to be aware of, and this is subject to verification, is that if you are a foreign passport holder and are entering the US by land either using a visa or a visa waiver, you *may* (not necessarily always will) be charged a fee for processing your entry at the border. I guess that is to pay for the CBP to lug their finger print and photo taking outfit with their laptop around

This last one I became aware of when on one of my several jaunts back from Canada by the Adirondack, I happened to help out a hapless Danish lady with a few US dollars, since CBP would not accept the fees in any other form.

They only accepted cash? That sounds suspiciously more like a ... "fee" ... than a fee!

That is correct, they will only accept cash and only US currency. They won't even take Canadian currency. So anyone not from the US or Canada must be prepared to pay that fee in US currency or risk being returned to Canada for lack of a few US dollars.

And a green card is still considered a valid ID to reenter the US. I'm not sure if Canada however will accept it for entry into Canada, I think that they do, but I haven't checked.

 

[Everydaymatters]

the border(Passport is mandatory now!)

Just for the record, a Passport is not mandatory for a land or water crossing into Canada from the US. All of the following are acceptable forms of ID to cross the border with.

Passport

Passport card

Trusted Traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST)

Enhanced driver's licenseMerchant Mariner document

Military ID combined with a copy of military orders

Form I-872, American Indian Card

Amish and Mennonite Old Order only:

- copy of birth certificate, and

- signed copy of IRS form 4029, application for exemption from Social Security and Medicare taxes and waiver of benefits.

I will grant that it's rather unlikely that many people will have the last two forms, but still a passport is not manadatory.

This is for crossing into Canada from the U.S. Is it the same for crossing into the U.S. from Canada? Gettinginto the U.s. was tougher than getting into Canada when I went to Vancouver.

Also, what is an "Enhanced" driver's license?

 

[wayman]

the border(Passport is mandatory now!)

Just for the record, a Passport is not mandatory for a land or water crossing into Canada from the US. All of the following are acceptable forms of ID to cross the border with.

Passport

Passport card

Trusted Traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST)

Enhanced driver's licenseMerchant Mariner document

Military ID combined with a copy of military orders

Form I-872, American Indian Card

Amish and Mennonite Old Order only:

- copy of birth certificate, and

- signed copy of IRS form 4029, application for exemption from Social Security and Medicare taxes and waiver of benefits.

I will grant that it's rather unlikely that many people will have the last two forms, but still a passport is not manadatory.

This is for crossing into Canada from the U.S. Is it the same for crossing into the U.S. from Canada? Gettinginto the U.s. was tougher than getting into Canada when I went to Vancouver.

Also, what is an "Enhanced" driver's license?

An Enhanced Drivers License is offered by a few states on the Canadian border, but not by most states. You provide extra documentation--basically, what you would provide to apply for a passport, I think--and pay some extra fees--but less than what a passport costs, I think, since I'm pretty sure it's only good for US/Canada crossings--when getting or renewing your drivers license, and your state issues you a special drivers license which says to border control agents that you've been checked out; also, your license magnetic stripe may allow them to easily check you against the "terrorist watch list" in a way a regular drivers license can't. Only Michigan, New York, Vermont, and Washington offer these, and I doubt any state which does not border Canada ever will.

 

[AlanB]

Betty,

That's the list for returning to the US, however under the terms of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI), this is also what Canada will accept for entry to Canada. Addtionally the Enhanced Drivers License (EDI) is valid for travel between the US and Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Caribbean provided that one is traveling by boat or land crossing where applicable.

For those flying to any of the above, only a Passport or the NEXUS card is considered valid ID. Not even the Passport Card is valid for flying.

In addition to the 4 states currently offering EDI's, a few more are supposed to start doing so in the near future and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec currently offer EDI's.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Betty,
That's the list for returning to the US, however under the terms of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI), this is also what Canada will accept for entry to Canada. Addtionally the Enhanced Drivers License (EDI) is valid for travel between the US and Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Caribbean provided that one is traveling by boat or land crossing where applicable.

For those flying to any of the above, only a Passport or the NEXUS card is considered valid ID. Not even the Passport Card is valid for flying.

In addition to the 4 states currently offering EDI's, a few more are supposed to start doing so in the near future and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec currently offer EDI's.

Thanks for the info Alan, I will say that as someonne who has/will cross the borders with Canada/Mexico

often that all things considered its probably better to have a US Passport for travel,they are good for 10 years and

like MC/VISA accepted everywhere! :lol: (and WILL expidite your entry INTO the US!!!!)

 

[AlanB]

Betty,
That's the list for returning to the US, however under the terms of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI), this is also what Canada will accept for entry to Canada. Addtionally the Enhanced Drivers License (EDI) is valid for travel between the US and Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Caribbean provided that one is traveling by boat or land crossing where applicable.

For those flying to any of the above, only a Passport or the NEXUS card is considered valid ID. Not even the Passport Card is valid for flying.

In addition to the 4 states currently offering EDI's, a few more are supposed to start doing so in the near future and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec currently offer EDI's.

Thanks for the info Alan, I will say that as someonne who has/will cross the borders with Canada/Mexico

often that all things considered its probably better to have a US Passport for travel,they are good for 10 years and

like MC/VISA accepted everywhere! :lol: (and WILL expidite your entry INTO the US!!!!)

Jim,

I just went over the border last weekend with a NY State EDL. Other than one US agent who somehow couldn't seem to find the word "Enhanced" in red on the license, I had no problems. And even he started laughing at his mistake when I pointed it out to him, he was like "gee they even put it in red just so I could miss it". And in his defense, he probably doesn't see many NY EDL's in Seattle. You can view a sample here if you like.

But beyond that, I wasn't cleared any faster or slower than anyone else traveling with a passport. And that includes both US and Canadian customs. And while I can't speak for other states, my EDL is good for 8 years and it only costs $20 more than a regular license does. So it's vastly cheaper than a US Passport.

In fact, that's why many States and Provinces are issuing EDL's, as many families were facing major expenses just to cross the border if they needed to obtain a passport just to cross the border to visit relatives living on the wrong side of a line. Both the passport card and the EDL were the solution to that problem.

All that said, I'm not knocking getting a passport. I used to have one myself, but it's now expired and I just haven't gotten around to renewing it. And anyone considering flying or visiting other countries not covered by WHTI should of course get a passport as soon as possible.

 

[jackal]

All that said, I'm not knocking getting a passport. I used to have one myself, but it's now expired and I just haven't gotten around to renewing it.

Wow! Quite the opposite of the posters on FlyerTalk complaining about the difficulty of getting extra pages added to their passports because they fill up too quickly!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Betty,
That's the list for returning to the US, however under the terms of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI), this is also what Canada will accept for entry to Canada. Addtionally the Enhanced Drivers License (EDI) is valid for travel between the US and Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Caribbean provided that one is traveling by boat or land crossing where applicable.

For those flying to any of the above, only a Passport or the NEXUS card is considered valid ID. Not even the Passport Card is valid for flying.

In addition to the 4 states currently offering EDI's, a few more are supposed to start doing so in the near future and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec currently offer EDI's.

Thanks for the info Alan, I will say that as someonne who has/will cross the borders with Canada/Mexico

often that all things considered its probably better to have a US Passport for travel,they are good for 10 years and

like MC/VISA accepted everywhere! :lol: (and WILL expidite your entry INTO the US!!!!)

Jim,

I just went over the border last weekend with a NY State EDL. Other than one US agent who somehow couldn't seem to find the word "Enhanced" in red on the license, I had no problems. And even he started laughing at his mistake when I pointed it out to him, he was like "gee they even put it in red just so I could miss it". And in his defense, he probably doesn't see many NY EDL's in Seattle. You can view a sample here if you like.

But beyond that, I wasn't cleared any faster or slower than anyone else traveling with a passport. And that includes both US and Canadian customs. And while I can't speak for other states, my EDL is good for 8 years and it only costs $20 more than a regular license does. So it's vastly cheaper than a US Passport.

In fact, that's why many States and Provinces are issuing EDL's, as many families were facing major expenses just to cross the border if they needed to obtain a passport just to cross the border to visit relatives living on the wrong side of a line. Both the passport card and the EDL were the solution to that problem.

All that said, I'm not knocking getting a passport. I used to have one myself, but it's now expired and I just haven't gotten around to renewing it. And anyone considering flying or visiting other countries not covered by WHTI should of course get a passport as soon as possible.

Thanks Alan,notice all but one of the samples(only Quebec has "specimen" on it! :lol: )have females pics,guess

thats marketing!Unfortunately Texas is still in the dark ages and turns out low-tech/old style cards that are

not much good except to buy alcohoil when under age! :lol: Seriously,I hope the day comes when all the

homeland security paranoia fades,especially between the US and Canada,Mexico is another story!

 

[zephyr17]

Betty,
That's the list for returning to the US, however under the terms of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI), this is also what Canada will accept for entry to Canada. Addtionally the Enhanced Drivers License (EDI) is valid for travel between the US and Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Caribbean provided that one is traveling by boat or land crossing where applicable.

For those flying to any of the above, only a Passport or the NEXUS card is considered valid ID. Not even the Passport Card is valid for flying.

In addition to the 4 states currently offering EDI's, a few more are supposed to start doing so in the near future and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec currently offer EDI's.

Thanks for the info Alan, I will say that as someonne who has/will cross the borders with Canada/Mexico

often that all things considered its probably better to have a US Passport for travel,they are good for 10 years and

like MC/VISA accepted everywhere! :lol: (and WILL expidite your entry INTO the US!!!!)

Jim,

I just went over the border last weekend with a NY State EDL. Other than one US agent who somehow couldn't seem to find the word "Enhanced" in red on the license, I had no problems. And even he started laughing at his mistake when I pointed it out to him, he was like "gee they even put it in red just so I could miss it". And in his defense, he probably doesn't see many NY EDL's in Seattle. You can view a sample here if you like.

But beyond that, I wasn't cleared any faster or slower than anyone else traveling with a passport. And that includes both US and Canadian customs. And while I can't speak for other states, my EDL is good for 8 years and it only costs $20 more than a regular license does. So it's vastly cheaper than a US Passport.

In fact, that's why many States and Provinces are issuing EDL's, as many families were facing major expenses just to cross the border if they needed to obtain a passport just to cross the border to visit relatives living on the wrong side of a line. Both the passport card and the EDL were the solution to that problem.

All that said, I'm not knocking getting a passport. I used to have one myself, but it's now expired and I just haven't gotten around to renewing it. And anyone considering flying or visiting other countries not covered by WHTI should of course get a passport as soon as possible.

Thanks Alan,notice all but one of the samples(only Quebec has "specimen" on it! :lol: )have females pics,guess

thats marketing!Unfortunately Texas is still in the dark ages and turns out low-tech/old style cards that are

not much good except to buy alcohoil when under age! :lol: Seriously,I hope the day comes when all the

homeland security paranoia fades,especially between the US and Canada,Mexico is another story!

I am a big believer in having a current passport. They are just handy to have, and are the ultimate travel ID.

With that said, when I renew my DL next year, I will probably get an enhanced DL. I live 90 miles from the Canadian border and go up there a lot. I look forward to going up without having to dig up my passport every time.

PS - you won't see it go back to birth certificate and driver's license. It is just getting treated like a regular international border, and we'd all just better get used to it.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I was in Edmonton for a few days last year.
They just scrapped their trolleybus system (BOO!).

Didn't seem like there was really all that much going on up there. Just my opinion though.

Edmonton is a city I know and love, but it is basically a sprawling suburb in the middle of the prairie. Having lived in Montréal and seen a lot of central and eastern Canada, Edmo is good for a visit to friends, but it's not a great tourist destination. The VIA Rail station is also some way from downtown (n-w of the now closed Muncipal Airport). Although there have been ongoing talks about building HSR between Edmonton and Calgary, a major issue will be finding a convenient downtown station. It would be dumb as hell to build an HSR line from Calgary (south of Edmonton) with no interchange to the Canadian, and the current station makes no sense as an intercity terminus.

And yep, the trolleys are gone. ETS maintain a pretty good transit system: the LRT is expanding and is reliable if somewhat limited, but the buses are good and provide reasonable coverage. That said, it's a tough city to live in without a car... it has a population of less than 750,000 but covers an area the size of Chicago!

You can also consider a trip up to Quebec City which is supposed to be fantastic as well.

I've never been to Montreal to make the comparison, but QC is very old-world Europe like, and a fantastic place to visit. In 7 years in the Navy, I've also never heard a bad thing about Halifax - I think that it's the hands-down winner for the best liberty port on the east coast.

For 'olde worlde' charm, Montréal and Québec City are the best bet short of visiting us here in the real old world (the big continent on the other side of the Atlantic ) They're also easy to get to by train. Likewise Halifax is a charming city - I was only there for a few days but absolutely loved it, and if you have time to explore with a car, coastal and interior Nova Scotia is one of the most beautiful rural areas of Canada.

That is correct, they will only accept cash and only US currency. They won't even take Canadian currency. So anyone not from the US or Canada must be prepared to pay that fee in US currency or risk being returned to Canada for lack of a few US dollars.

I've almost been kicked off the Adirondack on occasion because of this. Not a friendly welcome for a UK tourist entering the States from Canada... visa waiver fee in exact US dollars... grrrr.

 

[AlanB]

PS - you won't see it go back to birth certificate and driver's license. It is just getting treated like a regular international border, and we'd all just better get used to it.

Regular international travel? One can travel around most of Europe now from country to country without showing any documentation when moving by land. But here in the US we're making it more difficult to travel between the US and our good friends to the north, instead of easier.

 

[Bob Dylan]

PS - you won't see it go back to birth certificate and driver's license. It is just getting treated like a regular international border, and we'd all just better get used to it.

Regular international travel? One can travel around most of Europe now from country to country without showing any documentation when moving by land. But here in the US we're making it more difficult to travel between the US and our good friends to the north, instead of easier.

Hear!Hear!GWs legacy to us and Canada!Mexico is a whole nuther can of worms however,serious

problems along this border so all things considered guess we are better off having proper doccuments

whatever they require and grin and bear it, travel is still king!

 

[Everydaymatters]

PS - you won't see it go back to birth certificate and driver's license. It is just getting treated like a regular international border, and we'd all just better get used to it.

Regular international travel? One can travel around most of Europe now from country to country without showing any documentation when moving by land. But here in the US we're making it more difficult to travel between the US and our good friends to the north, instead of easier.

When I took a cruise out of Vancouver there were very few Americans. The people from other countries did a lot of complaining about how the United States made it so difficult to enter and how downright unfriendly the process was.

 

[jamesontheroad]

PS - you won't see it go back to birth certificate and driver's license. It is just getting treated like a regular international border, and we'd all just better get used to it.

Regular international travel? One can travel around most of Europe now from country to country without showing any documentation when moving by land. But here in the US we're making it more difficult to travel between the US and our good friends to the north, instead of easier.

Hear!Hear!GWs legacy to us and Canada!Mexico is a whole nuther can of worms however,serious

problems along this border so all things considered guess we are better off having proper doccuments

whatever they require and grin and bear it, travel is still king!

Got to agree to disagree with you jimhudson. It is criminal that so many millions of dollars are wasted on fortifying the US/Mexico border. Without the vast numbers of Mexicans working in the US or the vast number of American tourists in Mexico, or the vast number of US business manufacturing south of the border, the economies of both nations would stall. There is no reason to discriminate against the people to the south of the USA differently than those to the north. I thoroughly recommend this book: Hyperborder by Fernando Romero

Here in Europe any citizen of any member nation may move to work where he or she wants. The naysayers here (and a fair few outright bigots and racists) complained when eastern and central Europeans started coming to the UK to work. But you know what? They weren't "stealing jobs" - they were doing jobs, and they were generally doing the jobs that British people didn't want to. Within minimum wage legislation, no-one was being undercut. And now we're deep in the recession, migrant workers have gone back again. What's more, many of my contemporaries from college have gone the other way, working in France, Germany and Spain because they have the freedom to do so.

NAFTA is a complete joke and its ridiculed the world over, simply because US politicians always try to appeal to the lowest common political denominator. And this from a country that gave the world the Declaration of Human Rights...

 

[Bob Dylan]

PS - you won't see it go back to birth certificate and driver's license. It is just getting treated like a regular international border, and we'd all just better get used to it.

Regular international travel? One can travel around most of Europe now from country to country without showing any documentation when moving by land. But here in the US we're making it more difficult to travel between the US and our good friends to the north, instead of easier.

Hear!Hear!GWs legacy to us and Canada!Mexico is a whole nuther can of worms however,serious

problems along this border so all things considered guess we are better off having proper doccuments

whatever they require and grin and bear it, travel is still king!

Got to agree to disagree with you jimhudson. It is criminal that so many millions of dollars are wasted on fortifying the US/Mexico border. Without the vast numbers of Mexicans working in the US or the vast number of American tourists in Mexico, or the vast number of US business manufacturing south of the border, the economies of both nations would stall. There is no reason to discriminate against the people to the south of the USA differently than those to the north. I thoroughly recommend this book: Hyperborder by Fernando Romero

Here in Europe any citizen of any member nation may move to work where he or she wants. The naysayers here (and a fair few outright bigots and racists) complained when eastern and central Europeans started coming to the UK to work. But you know what? They weren't "stealing jobs" - they were doing jobs, and they were generally doing the jobs that British people didn't want to. Within minimum wage legislation, no-one was being undercut. And now we're deep in the recession, migrant workers have gone back again. What's more, many of my contemporaries from college have gone the other way, working in France, Germany and Spain because they have the freedom to do so.

NAFTA is a complete joke and its ridiculed the world over, simply because US politicians always try to appeal to the lowest common political denominator. And this from a country that gave the world the Declaration of Human Rights...

Im only refering to the drug cartels and the so called "war on drugs"!I live in Texas and am fully

aware of the millions of good,hard working folks here that came for economic and freedom reasons!

Its a real hassle to go for lunch @ the border and have to spend 2 hrs. in a line answering the same old

dont solve/prove a thing questions with the border "guardians"!(they dont have an ez job!)Im all for

a European style travel model but till all the various fanatics of whatever stripe either see the light

or die! guess well have to show our papers!(and I mean govt./corporations and religious fanatics here!)

At least theres no passenger trains to hassle @ the Mexico border, all thats left is the great Copper

Canyon ride, everyone should try this one!