Boardman says Turboliners "Not coming back."

[Green Maned Lion]

I never noticed just how absolutely huge Joe Boardman is until I was standing right next to him, said hi, and was greated with a return hi and a solid whack on the shoulder in greeting. My shoulder still hurts. Other than that, he seems a nice guy. I had plenty of fun today, especially on the steam excursion to Moscow. They did a nice photo run by with the engine belching thick clouds of dark smoke everywhere- and Boardman leaning out the window with a ****-eating grin on his face in the process. (No, he wasn't driving.) I still feel covered in soot from it. Great fun.

However... what I'm really posting about is his speech in the opening ceremony he was grand-marshaling. He said a variety of things, most of them a general pep-talk about passenger rail in this country that amounts to general political hot-air and none of that aspect we don't already know about- the 110 mph service initiative and so forth. Boardman is a consumate politician, but with his heart in the right place. Which is good- he needs to be one to hold on to the helm for a while, and what Amtrak really needs is Claytor-like stability. Nothing at all indicated he was worried about the I-G debacle.

One point stuck out. It was nicely buried, and said almost in passing- or atleast it was meant to sound that way. There were a lot of us transit advocates around today, though, and a bunch of people from ESPRA, NARP, and so on did take notice of his statement. I think it was intended to sound like very little to the majority of people to which it means little.

Paraphrased as close as I can remember it as follows: "[i've been lucky enough to have a lot of experience working for governement transporation] ... In fact, I was with New York State when we managed to rebuild the Turboliners, which Amtrak stole. I've had a chance to look at them, and they aren't in useable condition. They won't be coming back."

Given Boardman's vehement objection to David Gunn's "theft" at the time, I think we can reasonably conclude that any hope on the part of various people that Boardman might resurrect the Turboliners at some point can be laid to rest. IF this man says they ain't coming back, they ain't coming back.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

yeah we figured that. amtrak got screwed by new york and now there just sitting there. and amtraks current contract prohibits them from scrapping them instead they have to put them up for sale yet no one wants them. why not sell them to a scrap yard. that way amtrak is still within the contract.

 

[Tony]

In fact, I was with New York State when we managed to rebuild the Turboliners, which Amtrak stole.

Yep, that's true. And Amtrak made a $278B profit off of the routes using those Turbolines in 2008 alone. Stealing the Turboliners away from NYS was the BEST financial decision made by Amtrak in over a decade.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

In fact, I was with New York State when we managed to rebuild the Turboliners, which Amtrak stole.

Yep, that's true. And Amtrak made a $278B profit off of the routes using those Turbolines in 2008 alone. Stealing the Turboliners away from NYS was the BEST financial decision made by Amtrak in over a decade.

You're nuts... $278 billion? It wouldn't even be $2.78. No route besides the auto train actually turns a profit in a season.

 

[PRR 60]

...No route besides the auto train actually turns a profit in a season.

At one time the Auto Train was profitable (above the rails), but no longer. Today, the AT posts a loss for both direct cost and fully allocated costs. Despite that, the Auto Train is still financially the best performing long distance train with the Empire Builder coming in a not so close second.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Yep, that's true. And Amtrak made a $278B profit off of the routes using those Turbolines in 2008 alone. Stealing the Turboliners away from NYS was the BEST financial decision made by Amtrak in over a decade.

While your numbers are amusing, I personally feel that Amtrak's removal of the essentially unusable Turboliner trailers and powercars was a sound decision.

 

[acelafan]

Yep, that's true. And Amtrak made a $278B profit off of the routes using those Turbolines in 2008 alone. Stealing the Turboliners away from NYS was the BEST financial decision made by Amtrak in over a decade.

While your numbers are amusing, I personally feel that Amtrak's removal of the essentially unusable Turboliner trailers and powercars was a sound decision.

Agreed here. Wouldn't it make more sense for Amtrak to have similar equipment instead of yet another type of locomotive anyways? Just like the airlines, the more varied your equipment the higher the associated maintenance costs.

 

[volkris]

Keep in mind that there's a difference between the Turboliners, the concept of turboliners (turbine powered trains), and the routes those particular turboliners were running on.

Sounds like people are lumping all three together here...

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Also keep in mind that diesel is superior in all three respects...

 

[VT Hokie]

He should've brought them to Scranton and donated them to Steamtown!

Seriously, if they're not going to use 'em, what's the harm in giving one to a museum?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

He should've brought them to Scranton and donated them to Steamtown!
Seriously, if they're not going to use 'em, what's the harm in giving one to a museum?

Because they have better scrap value.

 

[VT Hokie]

Because they have better scrap value.

Why is anything in a museum then? Fortunately, some see the value in preserving history, even at the expense of a little additional money from scrap sales! The Turboliners are unique and are more interesting than a lot of the mundane equipment that gets displayed in museums! I think at least one should be preserved.

 

[VT Hokie]

I've had a chance to look at them, and they aren't in useable condition. They won't be coming back."

I'd just like to point out that Amtrak's stated justification for taking the Turboliners to Delaware was to ensure the well being of the equipment. So, Amtrak really should be liable for any deterioration that has occured due to Amtrak's negligence in that regard. The P40's at Bear aren't in useable condition either, but after a rebuild at Beech Grove they will be. There's no reason the Turboliners couldn't be returned to service if Amtrak chose to rebuild the equipment.

New York taxpayers spent $70 million for nothing - if they're not going to get use of the Turbos, maybe Amtrak could at least throw them a bone and restore food service on the Empire Corridor trains!

 

[VT Hokie]

amtrak got screwed by new york and now there just sitting there

I think it's more like New York got screwed by Amtrak, providing the trains it promised, only to have Amtrak back out on the agreement and then steal the trains!

 

[Nickrapak]

Another reason that Steamtown (or any other museum) would not take them is that the Turboliners are a set, and sets take up a hell of a lot more space than a single car.

 

[VT Hokie]

Another reason that Steamtown (or any other museum) would not take them is that the Turboliners are a set, and sets take up a hell of a lot more space than a single car.

That's true, although Steamtown manages to store lots of derelict equipment alongside the walkway going up toward the mall. I'm sure space could be found at a museum somewhere, or if not, at least a power car or a partial set could be displayed.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'd just like to point out that Amtrak's stated justification for taking the Turboliners to Delaware was to ensure the well being of the equipment. So, Amtrak really should be liable for any deterioration that has occured due to Amtrak's negligence in that regard. The P40's at Bear aren't in useable condition either, but after a rebuild at Beech Grove they will be. There's no reason the Turboliners couldn't be returned to service if Amtrak chose to rebuild the equipment.
New York taxpayers spent $70 million for nothing - if they're not going to get use of the Turbos, maybe Amtrak could at least throw them a bone and restore food service on the Empire Corridor trains!

The turboliners are UNUSABLE. Their entire HVAC system is improperly done. The entire thing. The plumbing, the piping, the vents, the ducts. They can't maintain an even remotely acceptable interior temperature. If New York State wanted to fix the problem, they should take it up with Super Steel. They botched the job. They should be responsible. Whine to them about the wasted $70 million. Whine to the New York politicians about awarding the contract to a company known for doing **** work.

And most of all, whine to New York State for spending $70 million on this boondoggle, these ancient, worn out pieces of junk. For $70 million, New York State coulda bought themselves 4 sets of brand new Talgo trains, with which to run New York to Albany service.

But they didn't. They instead decided to rebuild equipment that was well past its prime, and task a crappy company to do it. This wasn't about train service, dude. This was about making jobs and making noise. Let it go.

By the way, since Amtrak didn't accept the equipment, it did not pass ownership to New York State. They stole nothing, legally speaking.

 

[VT Hokie]

The turboliners are UNUSABLE. Their entire HVAC system is improperly done. The entire thing. The plumbing, the piping, the vents, the ducts. They can't maintain an even remotely acceptable interior temperature. If New York State wanted to fix the problem, they should take it up with Super Steel. They botched the job. They should be responsible. Whine to them about the wasted $70 million. Whine to the New York politicians about awarding the contract to a company known for doing **** work.
And most of all, whine to New York State for spending $70 million on this boondoggle, these ancient, worn out pieces of junk. For $70 million, New York State coulda bought themselves 4 sets of brand new Talgo trains, with which to run New York to Albany service.

But they didn't. They instead decided to rebuild equipment that was well past its prime, and task a crappy company to do it. This wasn't about train service, dude. This was about making jobs and making noise. Let it go.

By the way, since Amtrak didn't accept the equipment, it did not pass ownership to New York State. They stole nothing, legally speaking.

Having ridden aboard them, having a smooth, on-time trip each time, it seems to me they were useable until Amtrak took them down to Delaware! Super Steel wanted to fix the a/c, but Amtrak denied them access to the trains.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The turboliners are UNUSABLE. Their entire HVAC system is improperly done. The entire thing. The plumbing, the piping, the vents, the ducts. They can't maintain an even remotely acceptable interior temperature. If New York State wanted to fix the problem, they should take it up with Super Steel. They botched the job. They should be responsible. Whine to them about the wasted $70 million. Whine to the New York politicians about awarding the contract to a company known for doing **** work.
And most of all, whine to New York State for spending $70 million on this boondoggle, these ancient, worn out pieces of junk. For $70 million, New York State coulda bought themselves 4 sets of brand new Talgo trains, with which to run New York to Albany service.

But they didn't. They instead decided to rebuild equipment that was well past its prime, and task a crappy company to do it. This wasn't about train service, dude. This was about making jobs and making noise. Let it go.

By the way, since Amtrak didn't accept the equipment, it did not pass ownership to New York State. They stole nothing, legally speaking.

Having ridden aboard them, having a smooth, on-time trip each time, it seems to me they were useable until Amtrak took them down to Delaware! Super Steel wanted to fix the a/c, but Amtrak denied them access to the trains.

They could not be fixed, to redo airducts would have ment to redo entire car(s), as airducts are part of ceiling structure, even the ford Pinto rode nice but it was still a lemon.

the experts keep disagreeing with you , yet you(non-knowing) keep on arguing a lost case.

 

[had8ley]

I've had a chance to look at them, and they aren't in useable condition. They won't be coming back."

New York taxpayers spent $70 million for nothing - if they're not going to get use of the Turbos, maybe Amtrak could at least throw them a bone and restore food service on the Empire Corridor trains!

There was a time, when the Turbos ran, that I used them to get to the City from the Berkshires, after parking at the station, on a regular basis. The arrogance of the commuters, or regulars, in knocking down people to get to the booths in order to read their papers and maybe buy an occasional cup of coffee was overwhelming. I remember a very pregnant woman walking past the booths and each and every "important" seat taker dug deeper into their papers. I gave her my B/C seat and headed to the cab. I'm just glad the Local Chairman was running the train that day. I know I'm throwing hi-test on the fire but if they put vending machines on board it would give these VIP's more than they deserve.

 

[PRR 60]

To be fair, New York State did not do the Turboliner rebuilds in a vacuum. The original decision that New York would rebuild the Turbos was Amtrak's. Amtrak thought the rebuild was worthwhile, and offered the deal to the state. It was part of a deal where New York would rebuild the trainsets at the state's expense and Amtrak would do trackwork at Amtrak's expense. Amtrak was not an blind participant in the rebuild process either. They reviewed and approved all the plans. So, it's not exactly like the trains showed up at Albany one day and Amtrak gasped at how bad they were. Amtrak knew all the details at every step of the process and did not have any issues until the trains had already been running for several months.

The "you rebuild the trains and we'll work the tracks" deal was negotiated by Amtrak. When the time came for Amtrak to ante up on their end of the bargain, they had no chips. So, they reneged on the deal. In order to not be found in default, they had to show that New York State had not performed their end of the bargain. It was then that Amtrak determined that the Turbos were junk and the rebuild was faulty. How convenient.

In the end, that ploy did not work too well. New York State sued Amtrak, and Amtrak settled by paying $20 million dollars.

 

[wayman]

amtrak got screwed by new york and now there just sitting there

I think it's more like New York got screwed by Amtrak, providing the trains it promised, only to have Amtrak back out on the agreement and then steal the trains!

Well, for one, this is factually incorrect and that's been explained here and elsewhere many, many times.

For two, cry me a river. New York State gets some of the best state corridor service of any state, and unlike CA, IL, NC, PA, MO, MI, ME, VA, ... etc ... which pay heavily for their state corridor services, New York pays zippo for the Empire Service.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

amtrak got screwed by new york and now there just sitting there

I think it's more like New York got screwed by Amtrak, providing the trains it promised, only to have Amtrak back out on the agreement and then steal the trains!

Well, for one, this is factually incorrect and that's been explained here and elsewhere many, many times.

For two, cry me a river. New York State gets some of the best state corridor service of any state, and unlike CA, IL, NC, PA, MO, MI, ME, VA, ... etc ... which pay heavily for their state corridor services, New York pays zippo for the Empire Service.

Not to mention the number of states that will be joining the above club using HSR and/or other FEDERAL stimulus monies.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

To be fair, New York State did not do the Turboliner rebuilds in a vacuum. The original decision that New York would rebuild the Turbos was Amtrak's. Amtrak thought the rebuild was worthwhile, and offered the deal to the state.

Its time for you to do some research, Amtrak provided the trainsets, NYDOT was to pay for both rebuild and track upgrades, not Amtrak.

Amtrak does not own track, CSX does, and deal was NYDOT would upgrade tracks to 125 mph standards.

NYDOT F***d up by screwing up the rebuild and failing to do track upgrades, making even perfect working Turboliners (If the were) useless for Amtrak.

The agreement with Amtrak now is that Amtrak can get rid of the junk as they see fit.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/...ride-to-albany/

 

[Tony]

You're nuts... $278 billion? It wouldn't even be $2.78. No route besides the auto train actually turns a profit in a season.

While your numbers are amusing, I personally feel that Amtrak's removal of the essentially unusable Turboliner trailers and powercars was a sound decision.

My numbers are as real, as Boardman's claim that Amtrak stole the Turboliners away from NYS.

Get it?