VIA Jasper, Prince George and Prince Rupert Service

Northwestern said:

Yes, an interesting post. Thanks. I keep hoping for an Edmonton to Calgary train to allow a loop from Vancouver-Kamloops-Edmonton-Calgary-Kamloops-Vancouver. A chance to ride both the VIA and Rocky Mountaineer on the same trip.

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As some of the Edmonton <> Calgary story overlapped (or underlay?) the Skeena story, it was hard to keep it out. Northwestern is exactly right and the Edmonton<>Calgary trains also provided a number of Prairie links, like Regina<>Edmonton or Saskatoon<>Calgary. Or Calgary<>Smithers, for that matter! Sometime in the future I might remain healthy enough to follow up with a thread on Canada's "Other Corridor."

A few months after the 1985 return of the Skeena and restoration of the west part of the Super and the Edmonton <> Calgary train-off hearings and a bad turn of events in Edmonton city government, I moved to sleepy, quiet, Energy Crash depressed .... Denver (the Calgary of the U.S.), so for all those narratives, 1985 is a good stopping point.

Here is a proposal for new and connecting routes in Alberta.

https://canada.constructconnect.com...il-network-could-create-links-across-province
On the map, I don't see Calgary to Banff, only Calgary to Lake Louise, I assume there would be a stop in Banff. There is also a plan for a new train link between the Calgary airport and Banff, but I don't know how far that idea has progressed.

Willbridge said:

As some of the Edmonton <> Calgary story overlapped (or underlay?) the Skeena story, it was hard to keep it out. Northwestern is exactly right and the Edmonton<>Calgary trains also provided a number of Prairie links, like Regina<>Edmonton or Saskatoon<>Calgary. Or Calgary<>Smithers, for that matter! Sometime in the future I might remain healthy enough to follow up with a thread on Canada's "Other Corridor."

A few months after the 1985 return of the Skeena and restoration of the west part of the Super and the Edmonton <> Calgary train-off hearings and a bad turn of events in Edmonton city government, I moved to sleepy, quiet, Energy Crash depressed .... Denver (the Calgary of the U.S.), so for all those narratives, 1985 is a good stopping point.

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Also lost in the equation is the withdrawal of BC Rail's connecting services (although North Vancouver hurt the process).

Northwestern said:

Here is a proposal for new and connecting routes in Alberta.

https://canada.constructconnect.com...il-network-could-create-links-across-province
On the map, I don't see Calgary to Banff, only Calgary to Lake Louise, I assume there would be a stop in Banff. There is also a plan for a new train link between the Calgary airport and Banff, but I don't know how far that idea has progressed.

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It's important to remember that Alberta is the Texas of Canada, with a lot of the same biases towards passenger rail and taxpayer investment in it. Just copy every story about the recent struggles of rail and HSR in Texas and apply them to Alberta. Not everything planned or reported will be built.

Fighting with landowners for ROW would probably follow the Texas pattern. Some Alberta terrain is easy to build in.


And some not so easy to build in.

What would make the Alberta rail network even more viable would be === Operate the Canadian 3 times a week as is now. Add the Super Continental on the other CP route on different 3 times a week. Every 4 months switch the days between the Canadian and SC. The 7th day? Leave it to others. That could really provide service both inside Alberta and connections to outside.

Of course, both these proposals would mean a much larger amount of rolling stock to be purchased.

Thought participants in this discussion might appreciate this animation from VIA's latest ad campaign:

Well, to finish up the story of the Skeena and associated trains, the happy ending in 1985 was supposed to include progress on new equipment.





Check the last paragraph in the Rail Canada section.


Nick Vincent had gone to work on the VIA Action Force and this letter from his successor is a good place to stop.



The second page was about other projects. One other tag end that links the fight over the 1981 cutbacks to the 1990 cutbacks: Edmonton M.P. David Kilgour who had been seen as a rising star in the Conservative party tried to discretely warn his leadership that they were at risk of losing seats in the West if they took it for granted and neglected it. Not making any progress, he eventually went public with it and was in effect forced out of the party. His Wikipedia page focuses on his important human rights work.

Willbridge said:

Well, to finish up the story of the Skeena and associated trains, the happy ending in 1985 was supposed to include progress on new equipment.
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Check the last paragraph in the Rail Canada section.
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Nick Vincent had gone to work on the VIA Action Force and this letter from his successor is a good place to stop.

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Several other nuggets buried in those pages beyond the topic at hand, including Montreal's preference for a TGV to New York, the beginning of the end for the RDCs and the announcement of VIA's Superliner order.

jiml said:

Several other nuggets buried in those pages beyond the topic at hand, including Montreal's preference for a TGV to New York, the beginning of the end for the RDCs and the announcement of VIA's Superliner order.

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The TGV will be delayed until a customs facility is built.

This is a wonderful long thread about the history of the Jasper-Prince Rupert trains. My wife and I will do the trip PR-J this August as part of a loop around BC and into and back out of Jasper. Maybe I’ll post a trip report here or somewhere on this board. Or not.

I’d like to see references, links, or suggestions for some sort of passenger guide for the route, so we could have an idea ahead of time what to be on the lookout for as we watch Canada roll by out the train window. I did a full Canadian trip about ten years ago and I had a not too badly outdated psgr guide but I’m interested in something like that for the Sheena and maybe fairly recent.

dadonatrain said:

This is a wonderful long thread about the history of the Jasper-Prince Rupert trains. My wife and I will do the trip PR-J this August as part of a loop around BC and into and back out of Jasper. Maybe I’ll post a trip report here or somewhere on this board. Or not.

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I hope you have a great trip and I hope you do post a report. We just never seem to get many trip reports about that train so it would be great to have a current report.

Rasputin said:

I hope you have a great trip and I hope you do post a report. We just never seem to get many trip reports about that train so it would be great to have a current report.

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I will particularly appreciate what if any on-board food/drinks are for sale. I know Touring Class is gone, which included meals in a unique single level quasi dome coach.

dadonatrain said:

This is a wonderful long thread about the history of the Jasper-Prince Rupert trains. My wife and I will do the trip PR-J this August as part of a loop around BC and into and back out of Jasper. Maybe I’ll post a trip report here or somewhere on this board. Or not.

I’d like to see references, links, or suggestions for some sort of passenger guide for the route, so we could have an idea ahead of time what to be on the lookout for as we watch Canada roll by out the train window. I did a full Canadian trip about ten years ago and I had a not too badly outdated psgr guide but I’m interested in something like that for the Sheena and maybe fairly recent.

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If you can find a copy of Bill Coo's "Scenic Rail Guide to Western Canada" it has a very complete narrative of the line. When I retired I donated a box with several dozen still sealed new copies to the Colorado Railroad Museum book store, but Amazon posts it on occasion too.

Railvt said:

I will particularly appreciate what if any on-board food/drinks are for sale. I know Touring Class is gone, which included meals in a unique single level quasi dome coach.


If you can find a copy of Bill Coo's "Scenic Rail Guide to Western Canada" it has a very complete narrative of the line. When I retired I donated a box with several dozen still sealed new copies to the Colorado Railroad Museum book store, but Amazon posts it on occasion too.

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Bingo! Ordered it!

Railvt said:

I will particularly appreciate what if any on-board food/drinks are for sale. I know Touring Class is gone, which included meals in a unique single level quasi dome coach.

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When we rode it in 2016, the only food service was takeout from the Park car, which had an extremely limited menu. I would recommend bringing your own food aboard if you want anything more substantial than snacks, particularly on the Prince George-Prince Rupert leg, which is quite a bit longer than the other leg; it's scheduled for 12-plus hours and prone to delays.

Also, when you stay overnight in Prince George, I recommend choosing a hotel where you can get a full breakfast before boarding, as it might be many, many hours before you see another real meal.

Railvt said:

I will particularly appreciate what if any on-board food/drinks are for sale. I know Touring Class is gone, which included meals in a unique single level quasi dome coach.

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The Panorama full dome car that was used for this service did make its way west from the Montreal Maintenance yard last week, first on the corridor then deadhead on the Canadian. Railfan speculation on use has varied from supplementing the Canadian, reinstatement of the Vancouver-Jasper mini-Canadian OR resumption of Touring Class on the Skeena - all for the summer season. Someone will likely post the answer here or elsewhere in the next week.

Awesome, if it does indeed show up on our Prince Rupert-Jasper trip this coming August 25-26! If it does, trust me! I'll be on it and I will surely let you all know in my trip report one way or another if it shows up or not!

jiml said:

The Panorama full dome car that was used for this service did make its way west from the Montreal Maintenance yard last week, first on the corridor then deadhead on the Canadian. Railfan speculation on use has varied from supplementing the Canadian, reinstatement of the Vancouver-Jasper mini-Canadian OR resumption of Touring Class on the Skeena - all for the summer season. Someone will likely post the answer here or elsewhere in the next week.

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The Panorama car is no more a dome than a Sightseer Lounge is. A dome has a 360° view. I don't mind calling either an "observation" car as that is descriptive of its purpose in plain English, even though it violates the traditional railroad use of the term.

And I hated them on the Canadian. The seats were narrow, and uncomfortable with a shorter seat pitch than normal coach. Plus it visually ruined the smooth silvery lines of the otherwise all Budd consist.

zephyr17 said:

The Panorama car is no more a dome than a Sightseer Lounge is. A dome has a 360° view. I don't mind calling either an "observation" car as that is descriptive of its purpose in plain English, even though it violates the traditional railroad use of the term.

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Point taken.

I just want to thank everyone for the fascinating discussion. As one of the stakeholder reps for the FRA’s long distance study, these kinds of scheduling issues will be very salient as we begin the “Fund the 15” campaign here in the U.S. I was lucky enough to ride both the Super Continental and the Canadian before VIA in the ‘70’s. Both were heavily used trains and it seems like the trains deserted the people, not vice versa. With Mexico bringing back rail and U.S. Corridor ID and Long Distance Study, it seems like Canada has to eventually get their rail system back on track. Time will tell, but I’m hoping for brighter days for North American rail travel.

toddinde said:

it seems like the trains deserted the people, not vice versa.

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Definitely this, although the choice was made by the Mulroney government in 1989-90, rather than by VIA. Many of the services cut at that time were very well used. And the loss of connectivity that resulted from the 1990 cuts pretty much eliminated rail as a practical travel choice for those going beyond the Ontario and Quebec corridors.

fdaley said:

Definitely this, although the choice was made by the Mulroney government in 1989-90, rather than by VIA.

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That is a common misconception. The erosion of service started with the Pepin cuts years earlier, continued with the Mulroney government and have pretty much carried on unchecked since. There is not one particular government or timeframe that has yielded the VIA of today. While apologists will laud the current government for the purchase of the Siemens trainsets, that is all about buying votes in key areas they will serve. No Canadian government in the last 40 years has given a serious thought to passenger rail, regardless of party affiliation, and things will almost certainly get worse after the next election. Both the party expected to win or the incumbents (if re-elected) will plead poverty, with VIA well down on the "to do" list.

jiml said:

That is a common misconception. The erosion of service started with the Pepin cuts years earlier, continued with the Mulroney government and have pretty much carried on unchecked since. There is not one particular government or timeframe that has yielded the VIA of today. While apologists will laud the current government for the purchase of the Siemens trainsets, that is all about buying votes in key areas they will serve. No Canadian government in the last 40 years has given a serious thought to passenger rail, regardless of party affiliation, and things will almost certainly get worse after the next election. Both the party expected to win or the incumbents (if re-elected) will plead poverty, with VIA well down on the "to do" list.

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Well, I'll defer to you on the politics of it, which I'm sure you know better than I do, and I'm aware that the Liberals presided over several rounds of cutbacks too. And you're certainly right that the federal government regardless of party seems to have little interest in any serious improvement.

But my point was mainly that at least in the several years before the 1990 cuts, VIA still had an interconnected system that allowed rail travel between and across all regions of the country, and since then the number of travelers able to use rail in this way has been vastly diminished. Outside the corridor region, it's simply not a practical option for many trips that were possible before, and most of the trains that were cut in 1990 did not appear to be dying of natural causes.

jiml said:

That is a common misconception. The erosion of service started with the Pepin cuts years earlier, continued with the Mulroney government and have pretty much carried on unchecked since. There is not one particular government or timeframe that has yielded the VIA of today. While apologists will laud the current government for the purchase of the Siemens trainsets, that is all about buying votes in key areas they will serve. No Canadian government in the last 40 years has given a serious thought to passenger rail, regardless of party affiliation, and things will almost certainly get worse after the next election. Both the party expected to win or the incumbents (if re-elected) will plead poverty, with VIA well down on the "to do" list.

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As the saying goes: "Ride em before they're gone!"

fdaley said:

Definitely this, although the choice was made by the Mulroney government in 1989-90, rather than by VIA. Many of the services cut at that time were very well used.

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The point of the Mulroney government was not whether these services were well-used, but whether they were a good use of taxpayer money. And as much as I disagree with the severity of these brutal cuts, at a farebox-recovery rate of less than one-third and an annual operating deficit above one billion Dollars (in today's prices), I can't fault them for having decided to trim VIA:

Adapted from: Transport Canada (1988)