VIA Jasper, Prince George and Prince Rupert Service

[Willbridge]

From my memory: The Super Continental (and the Montreal-Sudbury branch of the Canadian) was cancelled in November 1981 and replaced by the following:

• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: tri-weekly sleeper service
• WNPG-Regina-SASK: daily service
• SASK-EDMO: daily RDC service
• EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: tri-weekly sleeper service (“Skeena”)

Around 1984, the above services were replaced by the following:

• OTTW-SUDB: tri-weekly RDC service
• CAPR-SLKT-WNPG: unchanged
• WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-PGEO-PRUP: “Panorama” (daily to Edmonton, tri-weekly to PRUP)

In June 1985, the Panorama was replaced by the daily Super-Continental (WNPG-SASK-EDMO-JASP-VCVR) and the tri-weekly “Skeena” (EDMO-[attached to the Super-Continental]-JASP-PGEO-PRUP), whereas the Canadian’s branch to Montreal (via North Bay and Ottawa) was restored…

The 1981 Pepin cutbacks seem to have been designed to fail in the West, but that was never clear. The official in charge was formerly with Voyageur Colonial buses and it may have just been a lack of knowledge.

The biggest weaknesses of the plan, from east to west, as I recall, were:

• not resolving the CAPR-SUDB "Bermuda Triangle" integration of CP and CN lines.
• running two daylight trains between WNPG and Regina.
• the dead-ends in SASK. "Your suitcase can go through Saskatoon, but you can't."
• not resolving the EDMO-South Edmonton gap or otherwise integrating the Alberta corridor service with east-west lines.
• access to Jasper from and to VCVR deleted a strong part of the CN route.
• separate stations in Prince George.

All of these things were aside from the politics and symbolism.

Little of this could be pinned on VIA, as this plan was sort of dropped on them. As I've written here before, VIA set about trying to patch things up without appearing to do so. I've been in the same position with transit cutbacks, so I had to sympathize with them.

Problems turned up immediately.

• the CN demanded three-car minimums on the SASK-EDMO RDC train, raising costs.
• the one-car South Edmonton-Calgary RDC trains that were in the CTC process to be discontinued suddenly were overflowing with connecting passengers as a substitute for the Super Continental. They had no checked baggage service, so baggage went via SASK to EDMO, westbound arriving a couple of hours after the Yellow Cab van from the South side got them to the downtown EDMO station.
• agents immediately started trying to route EDMO-VCVR travel via Prince George, but one really had to be a railfan or adventure tourist to do that. Or, they put EDMO-VCVR people through Calgary with an overnight layover. Unfortunately, that put them on the same South Edmonton-Calgary RDC as the people connecting to and from the East.
• The Calgary CP station could not handle the crowd. Upstairs office space was rented to become additional waiting room space, equipped with scrounged furniture.
• Jasper hotels were clobbered with mass cancellations, especially from Californian and Asian tour groups.
• There were many smaller city pairs that appeared to have service, but the Saskatoon and other disconnects gained VIA all the operating costs of that service, with little of the revenue.

1981 - VIA at South Edmonton, so near to EDMO, but convoluted to explain to customers. CP RDC-2's were replaced with VIA RDC-1's for more seats.


If you didn't want to take a taxi, it was only a short walk to Edmonton Transit Rtes 46 and 64 to downtown -- in the dry season.


CP Rail Calgary was an attractive facility designed for token services.


Next: what to do.

 

[Siegmund]

When we rode out to Prince Rupert in 2016, I looked into taking the ferry to somewhere in Alaska -- anywhere, really, just to say we had done it -- but found that to go anywhere by boat and get back to Prince Rupert would have required adding a week or more to our trip, and coordinating with VIA's thrice-weekly schedule would have added more time. It was February and, at least at that season, the boats had an infrequent schedule, much less than daily and not even on the same days of the week every week. So, we just spent a couple of days in Prince Rupert, which is a nice town in a beautiful setting.

The Alaska ferry service used to be much better --- 2 sailings a week each from Bellingham and Prince Rupert, plus extra short distance trips. But they never had enough ships to run daily long distance service. (And the schedules were always driven by tides, so a reliable same-day train connection would never have been feasible.)

The first moving VIA train I ever saw was when the Skeena went past the ferry dock while we waited to board, when my parents helped me move to Alaska for college.

 

[Willbridge]

It's late at night, so I'll write a bit more about the 1984 Panorama when I'm wider awake. It's an unbelievable story that had to remain secret back then.
View attachment 35147

Instead of getting my New Year's cards out, I've been going through back issues of Rail Travel News trying to pin down the evolution and politics of the VIA service in the western provinces between 1981 and 1985. I'm missing a few issues (or they are misfiled).

Some background for American readers -- the governing party under Pierre Trudeau only had two seats in Manitoba and none west of there, so no matter whether the 1981 cutbacks were justified or not, it looked really bad. The other important political issue affecting public reaction was that the traditional role of the Canadian Transport Commission was still legally in effect, so it was bypassed. No public hearings were held. The regional vice-president for VIA Rail Quebec stated that the executive order was necessary because the CTC would not consider the budgetary impacts (see quote in the article below).

So, the changes went into effect as planned, reported in RTN 235. The reason that the Skeena inaugural run departed EDMO late was because the CN had not issued train orders for it.




Note regarding VIA West veep Harold Murray's threat to resign -- he was a protege of VIA President Frank Roberts from their days working for CN in the Maritime region. This came out in the South Edmonton-Calgary train-off hearings.

VIA took steps to ameliorate the problems, but none of this happened on Day One. 20 seats were blocked out for Skeena connecting passengers between Prince George and North Vancouver. (I can't find the info on it, but as I recall, one of the tri-weekly days was shifted to connect less poorly in Prince George from one tri-weekly train to the other.) A chartered bus was put on from EDMO to Train 1 and from Train 2, as described below. It was started too late for Christmas bookings. The Canadian had cars added to it. In peak periods it had 18 cars east of Calgary and 20 cars west of the Stampede city. The South Edmonton-Calgary trains, which did not run Saturday evenings or Sunday mornings, had those gaps filled in. A second RDC was added to the morning northbound / evening southbound Alberta Corridor train that connected from Train 1 and to Train 2. On July 1, 1983 VIA introduced snack service on the RDC trains and contracted with Yellow Cab for van service between EDMO and South Edmonton.

Still , all of this was a patch-up. A passenger who had planned a trip to Jasper from Ottawa in a through sleeper or coach now had to change at Sudbury, Calgary, South Edmonton, and EDMO.



South Edmonton-Calgary service that was up for discontinuance in the legal CTC process was upgraded!



Next - Jasper businesses, the mayor of Melville, and a change in Ottawa.

 

[PaTrainFan]

What a great publication Rail Travel News Even in the Internet age I am not sure anything as supplanted it online for full, complete, credible news and information.

 

[railiner]

In some ways, it was a predecessor to AU...IIRC, its "letters" section was a pre-internet forum, and a major part of the publication.

 

[Willbridge]

What a great publication Rail Travel News Even in the Internet age I am not sure anything as supplanted it online for full, complete, credible news and information.

There were rumors that a couple of Amtrak presidents read it to find out what was really going on.

Some of the contributors had axes to grind, but were open about it and offered facts. I'll try to do that here.

 

[Willbridge]

Instead of getting my New Year's cards out, I've been going through back issues of Rail Travel News trying to pin down the evolution and politics of the VIA service in the western provinces between 1981 and 1985. I'm missing a few issues (or they are misfiled).

Some background for American readers -- the governing party under Pierre Trudeau only had two seats in Manitoba and none west of there, so no matter whether the 1981 cutbacks were justified or not, it looked really bad. The other important political issue affecting public reaction was that the traditional role of the Canadian Transport Commission was still legally in effect, so it was bypassed. No public hearings were held. The regional vice-president for VIA Rail Quebec stated that the executive order was necessary because the CTC would not consider the budgetary impacts (see quote in the article below).

So, the changes went into effect as planned, reported in RTN 235. The reason that the Skeena inaugural run departed EDMO late was because the CN had not issued train orders for it.

Note regarding VIA West veep Harold Murray's threat to resign -- he was a protege of VIA President Frank Roberts from their days working for CN in the Maritime region. This came out in the South Edmonton-Calgary train-off hearings.

VIA took steps to ameliorate the problems, but none of this happened on Day One. 20 seats were blocked out for Skeena connecting passengers between Prince George and North Vancouver. (I can't find the info on it, but as I recall, one of the tri-weekly days was shifted to connect less poorly in Prince George from one tri-weekly train to the other.) A chartered bus was put on from EDMO to Train 1 and from Train 2, as described below. It was started too late for Christmas bookings. The Canadian had cars added to it. In peak periods it had 18 cars east of Calgary and 20 cars west of the Stampede city. The South Edmonton-Calgary trains, which did not run Saturday evenings or Sunday mornings, had those gaps filled in. A second RDC was added to the morning northbound / evening southbound Alberta Corridor train that connected from Train 1 and to Train 2. On July 1, 1983 VIA introduced snack service on the RDC trains and contracted with Yellow Cab for van service between EDMO and South Edmonton.

Still , all of this was a patch-up. A passenger who had planned a trip to Jasper from Ottawa in a through sleeper or coach now had to change at Sudbury, Calgary, South Edmonton, and EDMO.

Next - Jasper businesses, the mayor of Melville, and a change in Ottawa.

1982 was spent by VIA in trying to make the 1981 Pepin plan work. It was spent by the travel industry trying to find substitutes. And it was a period when rail advocates linked up with community leaders and politicians.

In 1982, VIA's "highway cruiser" added to EDMO-Calgary service for EDMO-VCVR travel. While connections through Calgary and EDMO for the Skeena worked to and from the east, this bus for connections to and from the west via the Canadian left EDMO before the Skeena arrived and returned to EDMO after the Skeena left.




There were various estimates of the lost business in Jasper due to cancellations. $5 million was the lowest, and no one knew how much could be lost in future years. I had worked on setting up Japanese tourism by rail in the Canadian Rockies, and knew that their retailers liked to get in a groove for tours with reliable results. And as their main port of entry was Vancouver, not Prince Rupert, the sudden loss of capacity would be discouraging.

Far to the east, cities along the CN main line between Winnipeg and Saskatoon were outraged by the diversion of service to the CP main line already served by the Canadian. In that region of multiple rail lines and highways, the CN served one set of towns and Greyhound Lines of Canada served a different set of towns.

Leadership in that stretch was provided by Melville's mayor. Melville was a major junction and (I believe) a division point on the CN, so he had multiple motives for the campaign. He was given an advantage by the fact that the Pepin plan's route via Regina was longer than the route via Melville and playing tag with the Canadian between Winnipeg and Regina did not generate much traffic.

In mid-1982, Mayor Don Abel contacted me before he journeyed west to meet with allies. Alberta Transport 2000 was active with Saskatchewan Transport 2000. I don't recall how he got in touch with me, but I think that other advocates weren't available in that summer. He wanted to discuss alternative service plans. VIA had replaced the EDMO-SASK RDC train with a locomotive-powered train, but there was still a dead-end schedule at Saskatoon. The trains were parked overnight. Couldn't there be something better?

In early 1984, the replacement for RDC's departs EDMO for a night in Saskatoon.


At my work as Marketing Officer for Edmonton Transit we had recently bought a $50,000 CompuGraphic typesetter. My desktop computer probably has more capacity than it had, but at the time it was state of the art. And it came with ten (yes, 10) type fonts. We had chosen nine fonts that fit with our graphic identity. I liked the font that VIA used, so I had chosen it as the tenth.

With some after-hours learning on the keyboard, I typed out a counterfeit VIA timetable to try out on the mayor when he visited Edmonton. In reading about Melville, I learned that the Grand Trunk Pacific main line through there had run Winnipeg-Prince Rupert. VIA was running that in pieces. Several of the problems that hobbled the Pepin plan could be solved by reviving that idea. When I first visited Edmonton in 1967, CN had a secondary transcontinental named Panorama. I had noticed VIA's and CN's modern preference for train names that worked in both official languages, so I typed in Panorama. I also typed up a train named Courier/Coureur, as in coureurs de bois, for Winnipeg-Toronto on the CN.

Next: the mayor of Melville arrives in a "limousine."

 

[railiner]

In 1982, VIA's "highway cruiser" added to EDMO-Calgary service for EDMO-VCVR travel.

While that MC-7 was obviously chartered from the PWT company; in Newfoundland, VIA , or more properly, Terra Transport, a subsidiary of CN, actually owned and operated their "Roadcruiser's" to supplement and eventually replace most Newfoundland narrow gauge train service. In 1996, the bus division was sold to DRL, a private company.

 

[Willbridge]

While that MC-7 was obviously chartered from the PWT company; in Newfoundland, VIA , or more properly, Terra Transport, a subsidiary of CN, actually owned and operated their "Roadcruiser's" to supplement and eventually replace most Newfoundland narrow gauge train service. In 1996, the bus division was sold to DRL, a private company.

A reminder that although there were CP employees who transferred into VIA Rail, the marketing staff appeared to have all come from CN. "Dayliners" overnight became "Railiners" and so forth.

 

[Willbridge]

1982 was spent by VIA in trying to make the 1981 Pepin plan work. It was spent by the travel industry trying to find substitutes. And it was a period when rail advocates linked up with community leaders and politicians.

In 1982, VIA's "highway cruiser" added to EDMO-Calgary service for EDMO-VCVR travel. While connections through Calgary and EDMO for the Skeena worked to and from the east, this bus for connections to and from the west via the Canadian left EDMO before the Skeena arrived and returned to EDMO after the Skeena left.


There were various estimates of the lost business in Jasper due to cancellations. $5 million was the lowest, and no one knew how much could be lost in future years. I had worked on setting up Japanese tourism by rail in the Canadian Rockies, and knew that their retailers liked to get in a groove for tours with reliable results. And as their main port of entry was Vancouver, not Prince Rupert, the sudden loss of capacity would be discouraging.

Far to the east, cities along the CN main line between Winnipeg and Saskatoon were outraged by the diversion of service to the CP main line already served by the Canadian. In that region of multiple rail lines and highways, the CN served one set of towns and Greyhound Lines of Canada served a different set of towns.

Leadership in that stretch was provided by Melville's mayor. Melville was a major junction and (I believe) a division point on the CN, so he had multiple motives for the campaign. He was given an advantage by the fact that the Pepin plan's route via Regina was longer than the route via Melville and playing tag with the Canadian between Winnipeg and Regina did not generate much traffic.

In mid-1982, Mayor Don Abel contacted me before he journeyed west to meet with allies. Alberta Transport 2000 was active with Saskatchewan Transport 2000. I don't recall how he got in touch with me, but I think that other advocates weren't available in that summer. He wanted to discuss alternative service plans. VIA had replaced the EDMO-SASK RDC train with a locomotive-powered train, but there was still a dead-end schedule at Saskatoon. The trains were parked overnight. Couldn't there be something better?

In early 1984, the replacement for RDC's departs EDMO for a night in Saskatoon.


At my work as Marketing Officer for Edmonton Transit we had recently bought a $50,000 CompuGraphic typesetter. My desktop computer probably has more capacity than it had, but at the time it was state of the art. And it came with ten (yes, 10) type fonts. We had chosen nine fonts that fit with our graphic identity. I liked the font that VIA used, so I had chosen it as the tenth.

With some after-hours learning on the keyboard, I typed out a counterfeit VIA timetable to try out on the mayor when he visited Edmonton. In reading about Melville, I learned that the Grand Trunk Pacific main line through there had run Winnipeg-Prince Rupert. VIA was running that in pieces. Several of the problems that hobbled the Pepin plan could be solved by reviving that idea. When I first visited Edmonton in 1967, CN had a secondary transcontinental named Panorama. I had noticed VIA's and CN's modern preference for train names that worked in both official languages, so I typed in Panorama. I also typed up a train named Courier/Coureur, as in coureurs de bois, for Winnipeg-Toronto on the CN.

Next: the mayor of Melville arrives in a "limousine."

On the agreed-upon Sunday afternoon, Mayor Don Abel arrived in style. My 7-year old son was highly impressed. He had heard about mayors (from "Mr. Rogers") and the well-chromed, maroon Lincoln out front fit his idea of how a mayor should be driven about town. It turned out that the mayor's long-time friend in Edmonton was a car collector!

Once we and the neighbors had admired the car, we got down to business with papers spread on the kitchen table. For two years before the November 1981 Pepin cutbacks, Melville and other on-line cities had followed a Canadian Transport Commission study of transcontinental service. All of the alternatives west of Winnipeg had service on both the CN and CP main lines to Vancouver. The Pepin cutbacks had come out of the blue. I learned from him that municipalities were being ignored just as thoroughly as advocacy groups.

In situations like this there are always a lot of things that fit the "don't know what you don't know" category. Mayor Abel knew MP Lloyd Axworthy, who not only was one of the two governing party members from west of the Great Lakes, but also had grown up in a town near Melville. I did not know that when I handed Abel a copy of the "counterfeit" VIA Panorama schedule.

The effort continued. It was fascinating to me to see how uninterested the government was, perhaps out of fear of having been wrong. I don't have files of the T-2000 effort, but accidentally saved this example of courteous public comment that received nothing more than acknowledgement.

George Lambert was a retired Alberta school inspector and knew people in the small towns along the line. He knew how to write to government officials. The Saskatchewan group was also well-connected and well-spoken. The British Columbia group was enthusiastic, but as often is the case for BC, concerned also with provincial issues. And, they had one of the few route segments where there really was duplication by the two transcontinental lines (the other being in Manitoba), so the loss of service was harder to explain.

Through-out 1982 the patched-up network continued to serve customers who were trying to ride trains. Some ended up on the floor in Calgary. "Thank you, Canada."




Change was coming. In August 1983, Jean Luc Pepin was quietly shoved into a parliamentary corner and MP Lloyd Axworthy was named Minister of Transport. Axworthy asked for a review of the 1981 changes and pledged to "reestablish the credibility" of VIA Rail as a national service.




Amtrak Unlimited was not around then, but Rail Travel News covered the Skeena with this 1983 travelogue.




Next = Rumours fly, rail passengers try...

 

[jiml]

A reminder that although there were CP employees who transferred into VIA Rail, the marketing staff appeared to have all come from CN. "Dayliners" overnight became "Railiners" and so forth.

As you know, VIA started as a subsidiary of CN so by the time it was "spun off" the corporate positions were already filled. The CP people who transferred (including some I knew personally) were at the operational level rather than marketing and office staff.

 

[jiml]

On the agreed-upon Sunday afternoon, Mayor Don Abel arrived in style. My 7-year old son was highly impressed. He had heard about mayors (from "Mr. Rogers") and the well-chromed, maroon Lincoln out front fit his idea of how a mayor should be driven about town. It turned out that the mayor's long-time friend in Edmonton was a car collector!

Once we and the neighbors had admired the car, we got down to business with papers spread on the kitchen table. For two years before the November 1981 Pepin cutbacks, Melville and other on-line cities had followed a Canadian Transport Commission study of transcontinental service. All of the alternatives west of Winnipeg had service on both the CN and CP main lines to Vancouver. The Pepin cutbacks had come out of the blue. I learned from him that municipalities were being ignored just as thoroughly as advocacy groups.

In situations like this there are always a lot of things that fit the "don't know what you don't know" category. Mayor Abel knew MP Lloyd Axworthy, who not only was one of the two governing party members from west of the Great Lakes, but also had grown up in a town near Melville. I did not know that when I handed Abel a copy of the "counterfeit" VIA Panorama schedule.

The effort continued. It was fascinating to me to see how uninterested the government was, perhaps out of fear of having been wrong. I don't have files of the T-2000 effort, but accidentally saved this example of courteous public comment that received nothing more than acknowledgement.
View attachment 35255
George Lambert was a retired Alberta school inspector and knew people in the small towns along the line. He knew how to write to government officials. The Saskatchewan group was also well-connected and well-spoken. The British Columbia group was enthusiastic, but as often is the case for BC, concerned also with provincial issues. And, they had one of the few route segments where there really was duplication by the two transcontinental lines (the other being in Manitoba), so the loss of service was harder to explain.

Through-out 1982 the patched-up network continued to serve customers who were trying to ride trains. Some ended up on the floor in Calgary. "Thank you, Canada."
View attachment 35257

View attachment 35258

Change was coming. In August 1983, Jean Luc Pepin was quietly shoved into a parliamentary corner and MP Lloyd Axworthy was named Minister of Transport. Axworthy asked for a review of the 1981 changes and pledged to "reestablish the credibility" of VIA Rail as a national service.

View attachment 35259


Amtrak Unlimited was not around then, but Rail Travel News covered the Skeena with this 1983 travelogue.
View attachment 35260

View attachment 35261
View attachment 35262
Next = Rumours fly, rail passengers try...

Ex-CN sleeper Ethelbert (from the article) holds a special place for me - the first overnight train I ever took was in that car. Unfortunately it got bad-ordered by Winnipeg and we had to move to another car.

 

[Willbridge]

As you know, VIA started as a subsidiary of CN so by the time it was "spun off" the corporate positions were already filled. The CP people who transferred (including some I knew personally) were at the operational level rather than marketing and office staff.

Makes sense. The original veep of operations for VIA was from the CP. Also, I assume that there were other marketing opportunities within CP.

 

[Anderson]

How is serving half the route in the middle of the night going to help local traffic? Yes, it will help end to end traffic, but local traffic?

I mean, a forced overnight is a mess for anybody who has to connect through it. I'd rather deal with a bad-hour train than a forced overnight connection like that.

Honestly, the Skeena should probably be run through to Edmonton and run overnight. Doing those two things, ideally with something of a passable connection to/from the Canadian would probably kick out some modest ridership, and I'm not sure how much more equipment it would need (you might need two sets?).

 

[Urban Sky]

I mean, a forced overnight is a mess for anybody who has to connect through it. I'd rather deal with a bad-hour train than a forced overnight connection like that.

Honestly, the Skeena should probably be run through to Edmonton and run overnight. Doing those two things, ideally with something of a passable connection to/from the Canadian would probably kick out some modest ridership, and I'm not sure how much more equipment it would need (you might need two sets?).

Which part of my previous response (below) to @Rasputin do you want to rediscuss?

May I ask you what non-tourist traffic potential you see between Jasper (pop. 4,100) and Prince Rupert (pop.13,200), which are a cool 1160 km (725 mi) apart? Local transportation needs are centered around Prince George, the by-far largest city in Northern BC (with a CA population of 90k) and that city was served horrendously under the old (overnight) schedule - with a stop in the middle of the night:
View attachment 34994


Feel free to suggest a schedule for the Skeena, which would offer connections to/from the Canadian, which would be simultaneously convenient, reliable and feasible with only two trainsets. Once you’ve done that I‘ll happily forward your CV to my former colleagues at VIA‘s scheduling department…


It absolutely does (and there is a non-significant number of departures which don‘t make it all the way to Prince Rupert, due to freight congestion into and out of that huge port just south of the city clogging up the entire route), if you read that article which was just posted here a few posts up:
View attachment 34995


1988: 26,665
2019: 16,327
2022: 7,385


The purpose of these „remote“ services is not to transport as many people as possible, but to transport those for whom this is the only viable transport option. Waiting at a flag stop in some remote area in winter daylight hours is one thing. Doing the same for a train stop scheduled at 3am in the morning is an entirely different matter.

At the same time, operating an overnight service is much, much more expensive, as you‘d need more cars (at the very least: a Chateau and a Skyline - both car types VIA has an acute shortage of) and more staff.

Therefore, operating these trains during the daytime serves the needs of remote passengers and taxpayers much better than a nighttrain ever could and that‘s the same reason why the Northern Quebec services were also converted from overnight to daytime operations at roughly the same time…

In short: transforming the Skeena to overnight trains would require spare cars VIA doesn’t own, additional funding VIA won‘t receive and would all but abandon those passengers which are the sole reason for the very existance of this train service…

 

[jiml]

There are arguments to be made for both positions. On the one hand Rocky Mountaineer passengers don't seem to have a problem with a "forced overnight" connection and actually seem willing to pay a premium. On the other hand, despite Jasper being a lovely town to visit it is not a place you'd want to be scrambling for a last-minute hotel room in case of a misconnect or serious delay. An overnight train to a major city, with better connections, alleviates this to some degree.

The problem exists in the numbers above. Unless Prince Rupert recovers its former status as a cruise port or experiences significant population growth, more robust VIA service is probably not justified - especially with their equipment crunch. Without an increase in either tourist or local traffic we are left with the current situation.

 

[MARC Rider]

I mean, a forced overnight is a mess for anybody who has to connect through it. I'd rather deal with a bad-hour train than a forced overnight connection like that.

Actually, all of my Amtrak connections through Chicago (especially eastbound) are forced overnights.

 

[Anderson]

There are arguments to be made for both positions. On the one hand Rocky Mountaineer passengers don't seem to have a problem with a "forced overnight" connection and actually seem willing to pay a premium. On the other hand, despite Jasper being a lovely town to visit it is not a place you'd want to be scrambling for a last-minute hotel room in case of a misconnect or serious delay. An overnight train to a major city, with better connections, alleviates this to some degree.

The problem exists in the numbers above. Unless Prince Rupert recovers its former status as a cruise port or experiences significant population growth, more robust VIA service is probably not justified - especially with their equipment crunch. Without an increase in either tourist or local traffic we are left with the current situation.

I mean, Rocky Mountaineer pax also mostly aren't exactly trying to "go" anywhere...they've paid several thousand dollars to look at scenery. That being said, I think there's a chicken-and-egg problem - the current schedule obstructs even trying to grow ridership, so it justifies not bothering.

 

[MARC Rider]

I would presume that the reason that the Canadian government subsidizes this strain is to provide service for the local people, who are most likely traveling to either Price George of Prince Rupert, not to provide through service for people riding from Toronto or Vancouver. Thus, the overnight stop, providing service to Prince George at a reasonable hour, makes perfect sense. I wonder, though, whether they could equip the train with sleepers and allow passengers to overnight on board the train while it's sitting in the station at Prince George.

 

[Anderson]

I would presume that the reason that the Canadian government subsidizes this strain is to provide service for the local people, who are most likely traveling to either Price George of Prince Rupert, not to provide through service for people riding from Toronto or Vancouver. Thus, the overnight stop, providing service to Prince George at a reasonable hour, makes perfect sense. I wonder, though, whether they could equip the train with sleepers and allow passengers to overnight on board the train while it's sitting in the station at Prince George.

Or not have to get a hotel separately. Honestly, the biggest concern I've always had at the prospect of taking this train is that I am not a morning person. Missing scenery 'cause I'm asleep sucks. Missing the train is a Problem.

 

[Northwestern]

I think that British Columbia could use a passenger train going north from Vancouver. A lot of interesting towns between N. Vancouver and Prince George. Squamish and Quesnel come to mind. A lot of beautiful country along the route. I don't think BC Rail will make a comeback. I took the "Royal Hudson" back when it was an excursion train. A lot of fun.

Possibly DMU trains would work, but I know they may not be ideal due to the steep grades and mountainous country along the way. Not enough power and acceleration, perhaps. EMU's ?
(not the bird).

I also once took the "Whistler Mountaineer" (Rocky Mountaineer) when
it was still operating. A passenger train, at least from Vancouver to Whistler, would be appreciated by skiers during the winter months.

 

[jiml]

I think that British Columbia could use a passenger train going north from Vancouver. A lot of interesting towns between N. Vancouver and Prince George. Squamish and Quesnel come to mind. A lot of beautiful country along the route. I don't think BC Rail will make a comeback. I took the "Royal Hudson" back when it was an excursion train. A lot of fun.

Possibly DMU trains would work, but I know they may not be ideal due to the steep grades and mountainous country. Not enough power and acceleration, perhaps. EMU's ?

I also once took the "Whistler Mountaineer" (Rocky Mountaineer) when
it was still operating. A passenger train, at least from Vancouver to Whistler, would be appreciated by skiers during the winter months.

BC Rail (now a part of CN) used to do this with RDCs.

 

[fdaley]

On the agreed-upon Sunday afternoon, Mayor Don Abel arrived in style. My 7-year old son was highly impressed. He had heard about mayors (from "Mr. Rogers") and the well-chromed, maroon Lincoln out front fit his idea of how a mayor should be driven about town. It turned out that the mayor's long-time friend in Edmonton was a car collector!

Once we and the neighbors had admired the car, we got down to business with papers spread on the kitchen table. For two years before the November 1981 Pepin cutbacks, Melville and other on-line cities had followed a Canadian Transport Commission study of transcontinental service. All of the alternatives west of Winnipeg had service on both the CN and CP main lines to Vancouver. The Pepin cutbacks had come out of the blue. I learned from him that municipalities were being ignored just as thoroughly as advocacy groups.

In situations like this there are always a lot of things that fit the "don't know what you don't know" category. Mayor Abel knew MP Lloyd Axworthy, who not only was one of the two governing party members from west of the Great Lakes, but also had grown up in a town near Melville. I did not know that when I handed Abel a copy of the "counterfeit" VIA Panorama schedule.

The effort continued. It was fascinating to me to see how uninterested the government was, perhaps out of fear of having been wrong. I don't have files of the T-2000 effort, but accidentally saved this example of courteous public comment that received nothing more than acknowledgement.
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George Lambert was a retired Alberta school inspector and knew people in the small towns along the line. He knew how to write to government officials. The Saskatchewan group was also well-connected and well-spoken. The British Columbia group was enthusiastic, but as often is the case for BC, concerned also with provincial issues. And, they had one of the few route segments where there really was duplication by the two transcontinental lines (the other being in Manitoba), so the loss of service was harder to explain.

Through-out 1982 the patched-up network continued to serve customers who were trying to ride trains. Some ended up on the floor in Calgary. "Thank you, Canada."
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Change was coming. In August 1983, Jean Luc Pepin was quietly shoved into a parliamentary corner and MP Lloyd Axworthy was named Minister of Transport. Axworthy asked for a review of the 1981 changes and pledged to "reestablish the credibility" of VIA Rail as a national service.

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Amtrak Unlimited was not around then, but Rail Travel News covered the Skeena with this 1983 travelogue.
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Next = Rumours fly, rail passengers try...

Reading your recollections of the advent of the 1984 Panorama and the RTN coverage of the Skeena really made me kind of sad, because it reminded me of how much VIA still mattered all across Canada in the 1980s -- and how many people still depended on it to travel long distances. That pool of riders mostly went away after the 1990 cuts savaged VIA's services outside the corridor zone.

Imagine a Skeena with 125 passengers aboard, like the one in the Blishaks' 1983 report. That seems remarkable given that the 1981 cuts had eliminated the transcontinental connections at Jasper, but your report and photos show how hard VIA was still trying to preserve connectivity with its other trains, and with buses and boats, even using the roundabout routing through Calgary.

When we spent a week riding the Skeena in the winter of 2016 -- two days from Jasper out to Prince Rupert and, later, two days returning -- I don't think there were more than 20 people aboard at any point on the four segments, and on some portions there were fewer than 10 passengers including three in our party. And from the stats quoted by Urban Sky above, it appears ridership has dropped by half again since then.

 

[Urban Sky]

I wonder, though, whether they could equip the train with sleepers and allow passengers to overnight on board the train while it's sitting in the station at Prince George.

VIA lacks the fleet, funding and mandate to do so. The hotel industry in Prince George would cry foul and rightly so…

 

[Willbridge]

BC Rail (now a part of CN) used to do this with RDCs.

My parents rode the line not long after RDC's were put on, after it was completed to Prince George (PGE = "Prince George Eventually"). My father talked with the conductor and learned that the engineer held the record for number of caribou killed. My mother talked with a very British-sounding lady who was thankful to be heading back to where she "could get a proper cup of tea." That amused my mother, as she had better coffee in Prince George than in 1950's Vancouver. On their southbound trip there was an RCMP officer providing security for (or from) weekend fun seekers.

My father's wholesale news portfolio included the Vancouver Sun, so the infrastructure politics of the SoCred's caught our attention. The provincial takeover of BC Electric was news in Oregon and Washington, but the completion of the Pacific Great Eastern was of interest in its own right.