St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

lordsigma said:

I believe Amtrak has equipment responsibility for the Borealis runs and they will not receive any equipment from the Midwest state owned equipment pool - so no Midwest Chargers and no Midwest Ventures. It will be P42s and Horizons and possibly Am1 Club-Dinettes. I think it's going to be two dedicated Borealis trainsets with P42s and Horizons and separate Hiawatha trainsets that will pull from the Midwest pool that will shoulder the balance of the Hiawatha runs that aren't made with the Borealis sets. I don't think a decision has yet been made on what to do for long term equipment needs on the diesel powered state supported services outside the Northeast except for the Cascades. I wouldn't be surprised to see them exercise some additional diesel only ALC 42 options and some extra Cascades configuration Airo options minus the Cascades paintjob for some of these state supported lines outside the East Coast like Gulf Coast, Borealis, Heartland Flyer etc.

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One has to wonder if Amtrak wants to see the first Battery APVs in service before deciding what Airo consist to go for in the Midwest - in magical Christmas land, having a couple thousand additional horsepower when pulling out of a station, plus having more dynamic brake available, plus cutting fuel use by a percent or five, all is very attractive. Additionally, if they ever get access to the South Shore Line having the APV pantograph could be useful for certain trainsets. Whether it's more attractive than the extra complexity and capex...

thefirewarde said:

One has to wonder if Amtrak wants to see the first Battery APVs in service before deciding what Airo consist to go for in the Midwest - in magical Christmas land, having a couple thousand additional horsepower when pulling out of a station, plus having more dynamic brake available, plus cutting fuel use by a percent or five, all is very attractive. Additionally, if they ever get access to the South Shore Line having the APV pantograph could be useful for certain trainsets. Whether it's more attractive than the extra complexity and capex...

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The Midwest states that are part of the Midwest equipment pool will not get Airos. If Minnesota does not buy into the Midwest pool then eventually the Borealis might see Airo.

thefirewarde said:

Additionally, if they ever get access to the South Shore Line having the APV pantograph could be useful for certain trainsets.

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Since the SSL is 1200VDC and is I believe the only such instance in the US that is likely to ever see an Amtrak train, I doubt that the Airos will have the capability to run on this voltage.

BlackDiamond said:

Since the SSL is 1200VDC and is I believe the only such instance in the US that is likely to ever see an Amtrak train, I doubt that the Airos will have the capability to run on this voltage.

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The Wikipedia article on the South Shore Line says it's 1,500 V DC, but the point is well-taken.

lordsigma said:

The Midwest states that are part of the Midwest equipment pool will not get Airos. If Minnesota does not buy into the Midwest pool then eventually the Borealis might see Airo.

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There’s no reason Minnesota can’t buy Airos even if they join the Midwest Equipment pool( which according to some has already happened.) The WSDOT Airos for the Cascades are essentially just like the California or Midwest Ventures, no APV car in that order.

MARC Rider said:

The Wikipedia article on the South Shore Line says it's 1,500 V DC, but the point is well-taken.

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Airo APV is based on Vectron, and Vectron supports 1.5 KV DC. I don't mean to suggest the Airo APV sets could interchange with NEC equipment - they'd need to be quad mode capable [25 kV AC at 60 Hz (Boston–New Haven), 12.5 kV AC at 60 Hz (New Haven–New York), 12 kV AC at 25 Hz (New York–Washington, Keystone Corridor), 1.5 kV DC (South Shore Line)] - apparently squeezing three different modes into a third of a coach is feasible, but four may well be too much.

Having DC powered, Vectron derived APVs doesn't seem like a technical impossibility, and the Pere Marquette, Blue Water, and Wolverine routes in particular could benefit. Whether that's through the Midwest Pool buying options through Amtrak as a way to expedite delivery, or ordering Generic Airo without getting the branding, or in the case of battery APV or catenary APV, buying just the locomotive and coach pair with a traditional AAR coupler on the back.

In any case, though, equipment ordered today isn't likely to show up before the very late 2020s, so we're getting Horizons until then. Fingers crossed Hiawatha and Borealis ridership can justify longer consists.

So today (Weds 6/5 about 10:45am Central) The eastbound Empire Builder is about 6.5 hours late. Borealis MSP-CHI is not sold out with at least 8 seats for sale.

So I wonder which of these is true:

--Passengers booked on EB at stations MSP and eastward are not readily moving to Borealis...maybe it's difficult, or difficult to do without a $$ penalty, and/or there's limited awareness of this possibility.

and/or

--Passengers booked on EB at stations MSP and eastward are largely moving to Borealis, but today's EB bookings along the route are not enough to completely fill Borealis.

Anybody have awareness or experience how difficult it may be for EB passengers to swtich at this point, especially at an unstaffed station?

Of course some passengers may not want to switch in spite of the EB delay for various reason. But I thought Borealis would suddently sell out to CHI but it does not seem to have. And since MSP-CHI is avialable at 8+ seats it's not like the MKE-CHI segment is full and is blocking Chicago-bound people from switching.

moselman66 said:

So today (Weds 6/5 about 10:45am Central) The eastbound Empire Builder is about 6.5 hours late. Borealis MSP-CHI is not sold out with at least 8 seats for sale.

So I wonder which of these is true:

--Passengers booked on EB at stations MSP and eastward are not readily moving to Borealis...maybe it's difficult, or difficult to do without a $$ penalty, and/or there's limited awareness of this possibility.

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Should be charge to change trains - involuntary equipment change/substitution at Amtraks convenience.
Also Roomette Sleeper Bedroom folk may not want to change and then baggage handling issues ?
Consider that not all passengers boarding EB at MSP are destined for CHI

moselman66 said:

and/or

--Passengers booked on EB at stations MSP and eastward are largely moving to Borealis, but today's EB bookings along the route are not enough to completely fill Borealis.

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As long as there are empty seats - not a problem - seats not available between city pairs - unstaffed station the
train conductor would be the prime and perhaps only immediate resource (remember the cafe car has some
seating not the best solution - but not leaving a passenger stranded)

moselman66 said:

Anybody have awarness or experience how difficult it may be for EB passengers to swtich at this point, especially at an unstaffed station?

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Train Conductor

moselman66 said:

Of course some passengers may not want to switch in spite of the EB delay for various reason. But I thought Borealis would suddently sell out to CHI but it does not seem to have. And since MSP-CHI is avialable at 8+ seats it's not like the MKE-CHI segment is full and is blocking Chicago-bound people from switching.

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Sleepers handicap mobility issues might be one of the various reasons

THE BIG CONCERN is not having enough empty seats space to combine the trains
This is not a subway short point to point trip standing room hanging on by hand strap from ceiling !

And this certainly would not be a day to day frequent event.

I see that over the past few days, the Borealis had a dash 8 on it. It's kind of a treat to see that on it.

here is something Amtrak could do. If before 1333 leaves CHI if it is obvious that # 8 will be later at MSP than the next day's 1340 it could add enough cars to take all that day's coach persons booked MSP and south. <Mybe the few sleeper passenger will be interested? #8 /03 that was scheduled at MSP on the 5th was certainly an example.

chadamfleetrailfan said:

I see that over the past few days, the Borealis had a dash 8 on it. It's kind of a treat to see that on it.

View attachment 36823

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Where is the camera taking this image ?

As near as I can figure is the smoke stack structure in this Google map view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.887...umbfov=90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu

Are there more camera points of interest especially the Amtrak yards visible from Roosevelt Roads bridge
Can't expect to have a 24 hour drone covering everything !

According to MnDOT staffer Greg Mathis just now in the Great River Rail Commission meeting, a bunch of people did actually re-book from the Empire Builder to the Borealis yesterday when the Builder was super late! He happened to be at SPUD for meetings and talked to the station agent. Great to see that happening!

Also, he confirmed that MnDOT has been able to get some funding to actively market the Borealis within/from MnDOT, and they're already in the process of hiring an ad agency to consistently market the service over time.

Also, MnDOT is exploring a "couple options" with Amtrak to figure out roll on/roll off bikes, but it "just may take awhile to figure out."

WWW said:

Where is the camera taking this image ?

As near as I can figure is the smoke stack structure in this Google map view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8879574,-87.6413399,3a,56.4y,174.84h,103.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slfhDice12PS1pGKVWHbH-Q!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=lfhDice12PS1pGKVWHbH-Q&cb_client=maps_sv.share&w=900&h=600&yaw=174.83879246577936&pitch=-13.738760463959707&thumbfov=90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu

Are there more camera points of interest especially the Amtrak yards visible from Roosevelt Roads bridge
Can't expect to have a 24 hour drone covering everything !

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Yes, that's the place.

WWW said:

Where is the camera taking this image ?

As near as I can figure is the smoke stack structure in this Google map view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8879574,-87.6413399,3a,56.4y,174.84h,103.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slfhDice12PS1pGKVWHbH-Q!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=lfhDice12PS1pGKVWHbH-Q&cb_client=maps_sv.share&w=900&h=600&yaw=174.83879246577936&pitch=-13.738760463959707&thumbfov=90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu

Are there more camera points of interest especially the Amtrak yards visible from Roosevelt Roads bridge
Can't expect to have a 24 hour drone covering everything !

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I wish there was a camera overlooking the Amtrak yard. It would be very helpful for us railfans. There is a camera very near where you are talking about where the racetrack intersects the main line on a wye that can be seen here (do note that it is a paid cam).

The camera in question that overlooks the Clinton St grade crossing is from the Chicago and Northwestern Tower at the end of Ogilvie station. It sees all of the Hiawathas, Empire Builder, and Borealis traffic.

TODAY 6/11
Another case in point of letting the scheduled on time 1340 Borealis leap-frog ahead of the delayed 8 EB

Any further comments status of the Columbus station platform track repair ?
Seems to cause delays both direction all trains 30 minutes ?

I’d be curious if anyone here might be able to verify that the second platform is indeed being restored. I read the fact sheet and it didn’t seem super clear.

Septa9739 said:

I’d be curious if anyone here might be able to verify that the second platform is indeed being restored. I read the fact sheet and it didn’t seem super clear.

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According to people on the ground and with more knowledge of (who live in) Wisconsin, yes, it is being restored. Someone on the Borealis fan group on Facebook said concrete was being poured (I think) earlier this week or late last week. I don't think the platform restoration was/is connected to the Borealis service.

As WWW said above it seems to be causing daily delays and the sooner they can wrap whatever's causing the delays up, the better.

WWW said:

TODAY 6/11
Another case in point of letting the scheduled on time 1340 Borealis leap-frog ahead of the delayed 8 EB

Any further comments status of the Columbus station platform track repair ?
Seems to cause delays both direction all trains 30 minutes ?

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Construction on the Columbus platforms isn’t set to be finished until FY 25, October 24 at the earliest.

TransitTyrant said:

Construction on the Columbus platforms isn’t set to be finished until FY 25, October 24 at the earliest.

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Does this mean slow orders for that entire time, or might some portions of construction not require them? Awning installation or electrical and landscaping might not encroach on the active tracks, for example.

thefirewarde said:

Does this mean slow orders for that entire time, or might some portions of construction not require them? Awning installation or electrical and landscaping might not encroach on the active tracks, for example.

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That's a great point, @thefirewarde ! Perhaps only the earlier or most intensive construction will encroach on the tracks...I hadn't thought about that possibility for some reason. Here's hoping!

(And of course it will only also help the Borealis's OTP generally once the planned track/infrastructure improvements that were funded as a part of this project are done in the next 1-2ish years. LaCrosse and Winona-area improvements being the main ones)

Unrelated: @jis : Petition to formally change the name of this thread to the Borealis? Or make a new Borealis discussion thread and archive the longstanding TCMC planning/speculation thread now that we are closing in on a month of operation?

thefirewarde said:

Does this mean slow orders for that entire time, or might some portions of construction not require them? Awning installation or electrical and landscaping might not encroach on the active tracks, for example.

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The Columbus construction doesn’t result in slow orders, it forces trains to wait up to 10 miles outside of town waiting for clearance. Any slow order is the result of CPKC.

Here is how I picture the situation:
There is a double track line through Columbus extending a few miles east-west from the station/town center.
I don't know where the cross-overs are between the two tracks but there must be at least one or more.
With the track/platform renovation the rail service is probably reduced to one track shared with both
directions of travel. The EB and even shorter consist of the B should take very little time negotiating this
choke point - BUT however those 115 + car freights are another thing in moving trains expeditiously.
Depending on how the train dispatchers load up those double tracks with train units may determine the
extent of the time delay. It appears that somewhere around 30 minutes is the norm.

WWW said:

Here is how I picture the situation:
There is a double track line through Columbus extending a few miles east-west from the station/town center.
I don't know where the cross-overs are between the two tracks but there must be at least one or more.
With the track/platform renovation the rail service is probably reduced to one track shared with both
directions of travel. The EB and even shorter consist of the B should take very little time negotiating this
choke point - BUT however those 115 + car freights are another thing in moving trains expeditiously.
Depending on how the train dispatchers load up those double tracks with train units may determine the
extent of the time delay. It appears that somewhere around 30 minutes is the norm.

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The station attendant at Columbus informed me that the crossovers are approximately 10 miles east and west of the station. A quick google maps overview backs up attendants claim.

All the floodwater in the Mankato area and points nearby will be hitting the Mississippi in the coming days.
Does anyone here remember how high above the flood stage the Mississippi has to get before Amtrak has to detour their trains to the Wisconsin side of the river?

How does construction of the Columbus platform restrict movement on the adjacent track?
Are they working on the track too?

I ask this after seeing the new SunRail platform in Deland being constructed while traffic moves through on the adjacent track, albeit with a slow order. A horn is sounded when a train approaches and the workers clear up until the train passes.