St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[Amtrak25]

That substitution happens a lot on 448/449. I once rode a 72- seat Amfleet-1 in Acela-blob livery in 2003 out of Chicago. In 2017, when there was a half-business car on 448/449, the adjacent coach was labeled "Business Class", a 60-seat Amcoach-1, which confused passengers as to which car the actual business class was.

Turning half the seats forward for the special assignment would be a 5 minute job, but Hapless-Amtrak can no longer do that.

I am waiting for them to inappropriately stick a Venture coach on a Borealis, Chicago being in perpetual triage.

 

[NW cannonball]

The 1965 flood was the biggie. Right now the city of Saint Paul has already closed several main roads near the Mississippi, the flooding is no way near the 1965 peak,

Presently Shepard and Warner roads (riverside right in front of SPUD are under water and of course CLOSED !
View the SPUD train Cam #1 to see this:

https://www.uniondepot.org/train-cams/

Yup, expect the high water will fade over the next week or two, unless . . . The 1965 high water mark on the levee on the west bank has gone away. If you could stand on Warner Road then, you'ld be 6 feet under raging flood water. SPUD is not impacted as of now, torrential rains not in the forecast. So far. so good. SPUD is operating normally today.

 

[BlackDiamond]

There are many overnight trains in the world which do not have the best reclining seats.

this isn't Europe/China/Japan quality

Trains in Europe are not always luxurious. I remember traveling from Dunquerque to Metz in France overnight in a compartment of 8 people with a non reclining seat. Even when they have sleeping accommodations they are often couchettes, basically a person sized shelf in a compartment with 5 other strangers. There is sometimes one coach with sleeping compartments like Amtrak LD, for a price.

 

[jis]

Trains in Europe are not always luxurious. I remember traveling from Dunquerque to Metz in France overnight in a compartment of 8 people with a non reclining seat. Even when they have sleeping accommodations they are often couchettes, basically a person sized shelf in a compartment with 5 other strangers. There is sometimes one coach with sleeping compartments like Amtrak LD, for a price.

People also forget that of late most seats on even high speed trains in Europe resemble the seats in the Venture cars that everyone is up in arms about. You get luxury in Europe for a significant price. Most everyday accommodation is pretty pedestrian in so called Standard or Second Class in Europe.

 

[prech786]

Currently (if on time, LOL) the eastbound Empire Builder leaves St. Paul at 8:50 AM, arrives in Chicago at 4:45PM. The Borealis leaves at 11:50 AM and arrives in Chicago at 7:15 PM.

The eastbound Empire Builder can be as much as 5-8 hours late arriving at MSP. This is well after the Borealis leaves.

Upon learning of a major delay, I wonder how many EB passengers waiting at SPUD have tried to change to the Borealis at the last minute. The EB currently can be as much as 3X-4X more expensive (coach) than the Borealis over this route, $41 vs. $179 OW. How is that handled by Amtrak, refunds, vouchers?

Over time, if numbers of “bailing” passengers are high enough one wonders how this will affect the “load factor” numbers of the Borealis? How will this be factored into the decision for more cars or a second Borealis train?

 

[OmahaRoad]

Trains in Europe are not always luxurious. I remember traveling from Dunquerque to Metz in France overnight in a compartment of 8 people with a non reclining seat. Even when they have sleeping accommodations they are often couchettes, basically a person sized shelf in a compartment with 5 other strangers. There is sometimes one coach with sleeping compartments like Amtrak LD, for a price.

Oh, I know that's true for sure and I agree! Though when I was in Europe two years ago I did find the French trains I rode in coach very comfy; oddly enough ScotRail was also quite comfortable. German and Dutch trains, as Jis pointed out below, pretty much what the Venture seats are like. Not fancy or cushy at all.

The problem is the perceptions that people have, especially if they've taken some of the nicer trains in Europe or Asia. I think people tend to take nicer services when they're on vacation, which creates a skewed perception which they unfortunately use as their forever comparison to Amtrak, especially if they only go to Europe once or twice in their life. It breeds negativity when even a few people take, say, a hypothetical overnight Borealis on trains using standard Horizon cars, and then tell everyone how awful it was, how they didn't sleep, and how they'll never take it again. I think Americans have really high, almost ridiculous, standards for the comfort and convenience train travel, probably because in many cases they're comparing to their cushy giant personal SUVs, not actually to airplanes. Americans also love to complain, and again, specifically about seating for some reason.

If I had a dollar for every complaint about the Venture seats I've seen, I would without exaggeration have enough cash to buy several roundtrip tickets on the Hiwatha so I could finally test the Venture seats for myself! (I live in NC currently, not Midwest, and haven't had occasion to use a service that has Venture cars assigned to it).

 

[WWW]

11:15 am Friday 28 June -=-=-=-
#8 just arrived at MSP with a BNSF locomotive on the lead ? (mechanical trouble ?) followed by 3 Amtrak locos
What a mess with #1340 about to leave (11:50am).
It is going to get messy downline all the way to Chicago town !

 

[John Bredin]

The ridership that went all the way to CUS that chose 1333 for their return travel option would have had to contend with the dismal coach waiting area. On my return trip, there were a lot of people getting directions from station staff about where to board. And, oh... The body odor stench of the coach waiting area was immense. CUS' improvements better include HVAC improvements lest 1333 lose ridership due to how it resembles the Greyhound terminal, all senses considered. I don't know if the low cost can make up enough for the conditions in Chicago to convince Twin Cities folks not to bail out with Sun Country for the cheap flight home from ORD.

I've sat in that area, it's not that dire (airport-style rows of linked individual seats), unless it's gone really downhill in a couple of years. But as I understand it, there's absolutely nothing to stop coach passengers from waiting in the Great Hall. Impressive visually and pretty hard to stink up a room that big!

 

[Anthony V]

A second Borealis frequency should take the Empire Builder's time slot, with the latter train being rerouted onto the BNSF (C&I) between Chicago and St. Paul. This would bring service to several new cities that don't currently have service, like Prairie du Chien and East Dubuque (bus connection to Dubuque, IA). If the North Coast Hiawatha is revived, that new train should take the C&I too. That way, the more populated route serving the CHI-MSP market can have the more reliable on-time performing corridor service, eventually with several round trips daily, while the less populated route with fewer stops can be the LD routing serving passengers traveling to and west of the Twin Cities. In addition, all current and future Borealis frequencies should be extended to Target Field Station in Minneapolis, serving both Minneapolis and SPUD, while the LD trains serving the market would only stop at SPUD to avoid a backup move to TFS, while still allowing them to serve the Twin Cities metro.

 

[Willbridge]

There are many overnight trains in the world which do not have the best reclining seats. Ultimately the question is mostly how badly is it needed. If it is to be run as a hobby, then of course wait for the best new equipment to become available in 15 years or more, given the developing funding situation, which may become pretty bad pretty quick as it seems. OTOH if it is really a needed service then introduce it as quickly as possible with as little needed funds as possible with whtever equipment you can find in the current inventory. That is the tradeoff.

Remember, both the Pioneer and the Desert Wind started with minimal facilities initially, and it is quite likely they would have survived as a minimal service train. It is the shortage of fancy equipment needed to have run through cars on the California Zephyr that did them in. So in order to cater to the segment that wanted to run through to east of Salt Lake City without a change of trains, in effect all service was lost between Salt Lake City and Los Angeles and Salt Lake City and Portland/Seattle.

Personally I think it is better to have a service in place without all the bells and whistles and even with cross platform change of trains sooner rather than waiting for perfection later, perhaps never.

As one of the instigators of the original Pioneer, I came to the same conclusion. Two years into the service, an Amfleet-1 car was the lead coach on Train 26 leaving Portland.

 

[Amtrak25]

I don't go along with the theory that the low-frills train will win in all circumstances, or that unnecessary operation of fanciful equipment with be a train's death knell.

In Fall 2004, they had the choice to kill the Capitol Ltd, a Superliner train that was poorly patronized east of Pittsburgh with terrible equipment utilization, or the Three Rivers, a Viewliner/Amfleet-2 train that had poorer patronage west of Pittsburgh. In each case of the poorly patronized segments, intermediate stop ridership is and was nil.

The logical thing to do was to retain the stronger train east of Pittsburgh and the stronger train west of Pittsburgh, so retain only the Three Rivers, upgrade it to a Broadway Ltd with a 2nd sleeper, a diner, and a 4th coach and run a Thruway bus from Harrisburg to Washington with daylight transfers.

They not only kept the fanciful train, they killed the low frills train outright, and only offered a sloppy middle of the night connection with the remaining corridor train in Pittsburgh. Three Rivers was stereotyped by HQ as a freight train, and they wanted a fanciful train to serve DC. I don't think there was much analysis, except they may have dumped a lot of NEC overhead costs on the Three Rivers east of Philly. That stupidity resulted in effect reinstating the Three Rivers in 2026 between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh and costing us a $200 million ransom to NS.

18 year later, they see the mistake, so they will try to thru-route the Capitol Ltd with the Silver Star come November, likely for 3 years, allegedly for East River Tunnel work, but I suspect it is a trial balloon. I did hear of a 2030 LD restructuring plan to do just that, but run it via Philadelphia, correcting the 2004 mistake.

As for the CHI-MSP shortcomings, the Borealis needs 2 more coaches, and they coud get that by a split/merge it with a neo-333/340 at Milwaukee and abolish the unneeded 3rd Hiawatha trainset.

Amtrak also needs to be heavily pressured to add more T&E crews to the Minot base. There are too many multi-hour delays there awaiting resting crews, turning the E.B. back at Spokane, and chartering buses. Amtrak has again cut their nose to spite their face.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

I've sat in that area, it's not that dire (airport-style rows of linked individual seats), unless it's gone really downhill in a couple of years. But as I understand it, there's absolutely nothing to stop coach passengers from waiting in the Great Hall. Impressive visually and pretty hard to stink up a room that big!

Indeed, if you know CUS' layout and comprehend the boarding gate timeframes there's plenty of alternate waiting spots. On the day I departed CHI half of coach were ticketed to Hiawatha destinations and it was a busy day for those stops. Presently the old metropolitan lounge near the coach lounges is reserved for pax needing red cap assistance during boarding. The new screens at the gates denote the north gate coach lounge, and with construction of the surrounding corridors underway it seemed that pax who were unsure where to board (and there were a vocal plenty of them) were holed up in the north coach lounge.

The lounge always finds a boarding queue stretching out the entrance within an hour prior to departure. CUS seems to set up the great hall & ******* St. entrance areas with signed areas for LD trains in the afternoon/evening, but Hiawatha/Borealis pax are being funneled into the north gate lounge.

In my years of awaiting trains there, it's always been some variation on this, especially with how often the lower level concourse has been under rennovation. I always seem to travel through there on days with unpleasant aromas in abundance. To me it's an easy upsell to BC, sleeper or at least a lounge pass to board first. Delays, subpar onboard ammenities or even OBS issues don't phase me, but too much body odor is my one travel annoyance that I can easily justify spending up to avoid.

 

[railiner]

A second Borealis frequency should take the Empire Builder's time slot, with the latter train being rerouted onto the BNSF (C&I) between Chicago and St. Paul. This would bring service to several new cities that don't currently have service, like Prairie du Chien and East Dubuque (bus connection to Dubuque, IA). If the North Coast Hiawatha is revived, that new train should take the C&I too. That way, the more populated route serving the CHI-MSP market can have the more reliable on-time performing corridor service, eventually with several round trips daily, while the less populated route with fewer stops can be the LD routing serving passengers traveling to and west of the Twin Cities. In addition, all current and future Borealis frequencies should be extended to Target Field Station in Minneapolis, serving both Minneapolis and SPUD, while the LD trains serving the market would only stop at SPUD to avoid a backup move to TFS, while still allowing them to serve the Twin Cities metro.

Interesting proposal. Having the Empire Builder back on its “home rails” (BN all the way) might make the BNSF consider it more “their own”, and just maybe instill a bit of pride to handle it better, as far as on time performance goes.

On the other hand, what percentage of its thru traffic comes from Milwaukee, whose passengers would now have to make a connection?

 

[user 14106]

Not sure how much business an overnight train would get on this route. 65/66/67 do well because they serve multiple cities with populations exceeding a million people, and, indeed, the midpoint stop (NYP) at a ridiculous hour in the middle of the night, is at the "city that never sleeps." The also have some commuter traffic (BAL-WAS, PVD-BOS) on the morning part of the run. Actually, it's even reasonable for people doing PHL-WAS who want to have a very full day in the nation's capital, whether for touring or doing business without having to spend for a hotel room. All of the intermediate stops on the Borealis, except for Milwaukee, are pretty small places.

And right now the 66 train sits in New York basically all night with passengers on board and departs as an early morning (5:30 AM) train. So it’s getting a bit of early New York area to Boston area traffic. So one couldn’t really use the current schedule as a direct comparison to how Borealis overnight may do.

 

[allanorn]

People also forget that of late most seats on even high speed trains in Europe resemble the seats in the Venture cars that everyone is up in arms about. You get luxury in Europe for a significant price. Most everyday accommodation is pretty pedestrian in so called Standard or Second Class in Europe.

Yeah, for the most part I agree with that. It really does depend on the country, the service, and the rolling stock you're on. Most French TER seats are perfectly fine for a couple of hours, but a Corail coach feels like an Amtrak LD seat without the need for foot rests.

I was recently on Austrian Railjet in second class, and the seat is basically a broken-in Venture seat (perhaps with some better cushioning or upholstery, couldn't tell which offhand). Still better than Belgian or Dutch second class, but those feel like commuter rail in terms of distance/time spent on the train.

 

[railiner]

As one of the instigators of the original Pioneer, I came to the same conclusion. Two years into the service, an Amfleet-1 car was the lead coach on Train 26 leaving Portland.

View attachment 37041

But as has been mentioned in another post, weren’t the Amfleet 1’s sent to long distance services, converted from standard 84 seats to 60 legrest seats, and “dressing room” added to a restroom? Perhaps window curtains, as well?”

 

[jis]

But as has been mentioned in another post, weren’t the Amfleet 1’s sent to long distance services, converted from standard 84 seats to 60 legrest seats, and “dressing room” added to a restroom? Perhaps window curtains, as well?”

True. But the point I was trying to make is that when the Pioneer and the Desert Wind were introduced they spent some time as a Coach/Cafe train with no Sleepers even though they were overnight trains. They were advertised at that time as "Amfleet Service". Eventually one of them got (Heritage) Sleeper while the other did not. Then both got Sleepers but still with connection to San Francisco Zephyr, no through cars. Eventually they got more complete food service beyond Amdinette with conversion to Superliner/Hi-Level and through cars to Chicago.

The context for this discussion which prima facea is off topic in this thread is that I was making the point that an overnight service between Chicago and Twin Cities does not have to wait for availability of Sleepers and Diners. It could be started as a Coach Cafe train and evolve from there, and my exhibits in support of that are the cases of the Pioneer and the Desert Wind.

 

[TransitTyrant]

A second Borealis (formerly TCMC) frequency was included among the FY22 Corridor ID selects. Lead organization is WisDOT (not Amtrak).



Years away, even with positive tweets.
Things slow down when governments are asked to write the subsidy check.

Corridor ID routes currently running with previous planning studies are several years ahead of new builds or even extensions. WisDOT hired enough consultants to enable them to study all their proposed routes at the same time versus separately. We’ll definitely have a clearer picture of timelines after the planning is done.

 

[Amtrak25]

But as has been mentioned in another post, weren’t the Amfleet 1’s sent to long distance services, converted from standard 84 seats to 60 legrest seats, and “dressing room” added to a restroom? Perhaps window curtains, as well?”

They weren't converted from 84 seaters. They came in LD configuration from Red Lion, and some sent straight from there, along with some 84 seaters, to the west coast.

The Amfleet on the Pioneer and Seattle locals from 1977 to around 1981 never saw the NEC. The mutliple unit door control was disconnected. There was a sticker in the vestibule stating so, and if those cars were to relocate to the NEC, the MU door control would have to be connected. I belive there were 18 Amfleet cars assigned to Seattle

The food service cars based Seattle were of the configuration half dinette, half hi denstiy coach seating, though they did not sell those seats. When I took the Pioneer in 1978, they served microwave meals on very sturdy palstic dishes with actual silverware. The LSA served me at my seat in coach section. It does not have to be run like a 7/11 as it is now, with over-priced junk food to boot.

 

[west point]

At least 10 years ago on a trip from NOL to ATL the last 2 coaches which were not occupied were AM-1s. Even the old TVs were still in the racks. As far as I could tell they were occupied ATL - North mainly for shorts.

 

[NorthShore]

I've sat in that area, it's not that dire (airport-style rows of linked individual seats), unless it's gone really downhill in a couple of years. But as I understand it, there's absolutely nothing to stop coach passengers from waiting in the Great Hall. Impressive visually and pretty hard to stink up a room that big!

To a certain extent, I think things have gone significantly downhill in the general waiting area at CUS in the last couple of years. This is, partly, due to homeless issues; with more people using CUS as shelter and a place to sleep during the day (which also accounts for why security now does a sweep and clears/locks the Great Hall down overnight after 11.). The other part is that Greyhound is, effectively, transitioning to employing CUS as their Chicago terminal, and many more bus passengers are using it to wait on departure or for transfers by the (ineffective and inadequate for intercity) bus center across the street. However, what I've been noticing is that the homeless and bus passengers, mostly, wait in the newer seating area (which do resemble airline waiting rooms) in the Northeast section of the Great Hall (where there used to be a hallway and restaurant) rather than the traditional center waiting area of the Great Hall, which still seems to be used more by ticketed Amtrak passengers. Now, if what we're talking about is the Hiawatha north tracks waiting room, I can't speak as well to the situation. However, I'd doubt there is a serious issue with body odor there. Of course, on any given day or weekend, especially if there's a major event attracting lots of suburban youngsters, I suppose there is the possibility of "smells like teen spirit" in the station, as they wait for commuter trains.

 

[thefirewarde]

Given the timeliness requirements and how borderline the Borealis versus driving case is right now I doubt there's much interest in adding even a fifteen minute delay at Milwaukee to couple/uncouple. Also, as soon as the second platform at Milwaukee Airport is finished, they're supposed to go back to seven Hiawathas (plus the EB and the Borealis) which, I believe, requires that third trainset? Or the previous seven Hiawatha schedule did, at least?

The interim between introducing a second Borealis running and right now is likely getting additional equipment added to the consist - three additional coaches, in a perfect world with additional business class seats, are easier to find than four coaches and a cafe, plus locomotives, and require less additional staffing.

What are the chances Amtrak adds schedule padding on arrival into St Paul? The Borealis 1333 seems to pick up fifteen minutes of delay on average between MKE and CBS and another fifteen between RDW and MSP. It would hurt the overall route timing, but is a more attainable schedule worth the longer timetable? Especially if the train doesn't have to wait to leave on time, since it's the end terminus - arriving early is all gravy there.

 

[Septa9739]

Lengthening the schedule rarely actually results in a appreciable improvement on OTP. E.g. The Sunset, Crescent, even commuter rail systems.

 

[thefirewarde]

Okay, why? If you're somehow getting fifteen minutes behind on average between your next to last station and the last station, why wouldn't adding a fifteen minute pad to your final scheduled arrival time improve OTP?

 

[Septa9739]

There are two major theories I know: one suggests the Class I’s eventually add that time into their plan for how to dispatch the train, and the other suggests that the padding makes it harder to be precise in operating the train in relation to everything else rolling along on a particular day. If Amtrak 456 shows up at CP ABC at 17:56, but is not due till 18:01 it is likely to encounter a delay because CP XYZ is fouling the interlocking still. The stopping/starting plus waiting will make for a delay of more than 5 minutes, so then you end up getting back to speed with say 3 minutes delay, which lines you up late at the next interlocking, which is never good. I don’t know the exact way this works out but, it’s a real phenomenon. Read about the Sunset and it’s 12[?] hours of padding.

There is in all likelihood already sufficient padding at MSP and the train is eating all of it and more due to cascading delays.