Airo - Amfleet I replacement Siemens Inter City Trainsets (ICT) (2-3Q 2024)

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Does anyone know the traction motor arrangement on the Airo sets? I know the pantograph will be on the car directly behind the Charger locomotive. Will that pantograph supply power to traction motors just on that particular car only? Or will the pantograph supply power to the locomotive's traction motors? Or to both the car's and locomotive's traction motors?
There are traction motors in the trucks under the power car, and the motors in the ALCE-42 are also supplied with power from the power car. So there are in total four powered truck when running under catenary power. Only two powered trucks under diesel power since the total power available is limited by the power of the prime mover in that mode.
 
Springfield service will be run using some configuration of Airos.
The talk in the NEC commission planning documents is the New Haven - Springfield and valley Flyer Amtrak services will shift more towards through trains rather than locals. An eventual goal is hourly through train service between Springfield and New York. Some of these through trains will terminate at Springfield, some will serve Greenfield, others will take the inland route to Boston. Notably the Airo turnaround facility will be located at Springfield rather than New Haven which also supports this change in operations. CTDOT will fill in the local schedule between what Amtrak wants to run with locals.
 
Does anyone know the traction motor arrangement on the Airo sets?
https://www.esparail.org/resources/climate-change-and-rail/ (you need to scroll down a ways) indicates that at least under electric power, there will be three powered trucks. In theory, if you're traction limited instead of horsepower limited such as when accelerating from a dead stop, trying to avoid wheelslip, you might see a benefit from running the third powered truck. Additionally it may be helpful to dynamic brake via the APV axles in addition to the locomotive. However once you're moving you won't have enough power from the diesel to run every traction motor - they don't say one way or the other but I'd be very surprised if more than two trucks were powered most of the time when using the diesel.
 
https://www.esparail.org/resources/climate-change-and-rail/ (you need to scroll down a ways) indicates that at least under electric power, there will be three powered trucks. In theory, if you're traction limited instead of horsepower limited such as when accelerating from a dead stop, trying to avoid wheelslip, you might see a benefit from running the third powered truck. Additionally it may be helpful to dynamic brake via the APV axles in addition to the locomotive. However once you're moving you won't have enough power from the diesel to run every traction motor - they don't say one way or the other but I'd be very surprised if more than two trucks were powered most of the time when using the diesel.
Thank you for sharing that link. It makes sense to distribute traction to help with adhesion. I would suspect that 3 - 4 powered trucks will help with acceleration when compared to a similar length ACS-64 and 6 - 8 Amfleet cars. Perhaps, the new Airo trainsets will help shave a couple of minutes off the schedule.
 
I think the big time savings will be at places where engine changes currently occur. 30 minutes dwell could be reduced to 10 minutes dwell. Maybe faster.
New Haven to Springfield is a good example. To be fair, if you have a 10 min dwell time once the dual modes are implemented then everyone involved should be fired. That would be an outrageous amount of excess time without any need.
 
https://www.esparail.org/resources/climate-change-and-rail/ (you need to scroll down a ways) indicates that at least under electric power, there will be three powered trucks. In theory, if you're traction limited instead of horsepower limited such as when accelerating from a dead stop, trying to avoid wheelslip, you might see a benefit from running the third powered truck. Additionally it may be helpful to dynamic brake via the APV axles in addition to the locomotive. However once you're moving you won't have enough power from the diesel to run every traction motor - they don't say one way or the other but I'd be very surprised if more than two trucks were powered most of the time when using the diesel.
What’s your cutoff on required power per axle to run while at a decent speed? Seems like you have a rough idea of a speed where you would want to switch from 3 to 2 powered axles
 
What’s your cutoff on required power per axle to run while at a decent speed? Seems like you have a rough idea of a speed where you would want to switch from 3 to 2 powered axles
First we have no idea how Siemens will program the traction power. It may just power all trucks in electrical mode. Will it go to 2 trucks in diesel mode once full diesel power can be used on 2 trucks? Have no idea.

A very complicated question. It all starts with wheel to rail adhesion. The wheel can only apply so much torque to the rail without slipping. Rails themselves itself may be different even in today's world. Depending on the gear ratio of the axel & wheel diameter the HP will provide so much torque. Wheels can slip at slow speeds if full HP applied. Note: HSR trains have high HP per axel, but the higher gear ratio has a lower torque per traction motor HP.

Now what can be done if say a traction motor fails in diesel mode? The extra truck could certainly provide more torque.
 
It's whatever speed and above you won't encounter wheelslip when using only two powered trucks, but I don't know what the actual number is. And I'm sure it will be calculated on the fly rather than just being one number all the time.
 
The Washington engine change is scheduled for 25 minutes. There will still be dwell time of 15 minutes just for ingress/egress of passengers from one end of the platform and for schedule recovery. Any less than that, and they will depart late.

So hauling the dead weight of a prime mover and fuel tank for a 900 mile round trip to Boston and back to save 10 minutes I think is foolish.

It also wastes the investment on the Sprinter locos with no expectation the commuter railroads will buy them despite what Amtrak says to justify it. So they are wasting about a half billion dollars on new Airo locos that they don't need, money better spent on replacing Pennsy catenary.
 
It's whatever speed and above you won't encounter wheelslip when using only two powered trucks, but I don't know what the actual number is. And I'm sure it will be calculated on the fly rather than just being one number all the time.
I won't be surprised if they don't do anything. It is an added complication for little gain. Theoretically they could cut out a truck in a two truck loco too, but they don;t do it. Afterall just delivering the power that is needed in itself reduces power consumption anyway.
The Washington engine change is scheduled for 25 minutes. There will still be dwell time of 15 minutes just for ingress/egress of passengers from one end of the platform and for schedule recovery. Any less than that, and they will depart late.

So hauling the dead weight of a prime mover and fuel tank for a 900 mile round trip to Boston and back to save 10 minutes I think is foolish.
Additionally it does provide a work around for their frequent catenary and power supply issues too ;)
It also wastes the investment on the Sprinter locos with no expectation the commuter railroads will buy them despite what Amtrak says to justify it. So they are wasting about a half billion dollars on new Airo locos that they don't need, money better spent on replacing Pennsy catenary.
Frankly, I had expected them to take the Railjet approach wherein they use standard locomotive at one end of the consist with a cab car at the other end. But I guess when someone is suddenly flush with cash there is a tendency to not do things that does not prematurely retire equipment, unless of course we are unaware of some problems lurking under the hood of the ACS-64s.

My suspicion is that they would rather not take the responsibility of consist management required with a mix of electric only and dual mode consists, and deal with just one single dual mode consist type and handle the entire corridor from Boston to Georgia as a single consist type operation. Spend some money to enable more laziness and less need for competent expertise. Given the skills trends there is an argument to be had for that. ;)
 
It also wastes the investment on the Sprinter locos with no expectation the commuter railroads will buy them despite what Amtrak says to justify it. So they are wasting about a half billion dollars on new Airo locos that they don't need, money better spent on replacing Pennsy catenary.
America needs to get in the habit of not running their fleets down to the wire before thinking of replacements.

10-15 years is absolutely a reasonable amount of time to replace high-utilization fleets, and follows best practices worldwide. I too was expecting and hoping for railjet-like trains, but whatever…

Plus, ACS 64s will still be used on LD trains. So basically there will be a plentiful fleet of reliable mid-age locos for years to come.
It’s a win-win.
 
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There have been rumblings that the ACS-64 fleet is not aging like the Toasters or GG-1, and that Amtrak doesn't want to depend on them past the Siemens maintenance contract duration.

There's also the aspect - not a primary reason for the decision, but a nice side benefit - that running dual mode electric equipment is a potential way to encourage partial electrification on e.g. the Southeast Corridor and any high traffic branches besides the Keystone. The equipment will already be able to use it - just add wire.
 
The equipment will already be able to use it - just add wire.

That has been my thought as well. I cannot remember where I read it but wire in the 1st street tunnel bores might happen when the bores are rebuilt. It would appear important to reduce diesel emissions and allow closer headways. However, what read said that wire would not be installed until the renewal of those bores and that was not scheduled until about 2040. Quite sometime after the 2nd Long bridge is complete when traffic can be increased.
 
However, what read said that wire would not be installed until the renewal of those bores and that was not scheduled until about 2040. Quite sometime after the 2nd Long bridge is complete when traffic can be increased.
Unless there's a major shift in priorities, I don't figure electrification would move faster than that. The current state of VA passenger rail projects is already ambitious. The goal, I think correctly, seems to be coverage and service improvements first. Getting the East-West corridor open, getting the Manassas VRE/Lynchburg Amtrak improvements underway, getting the Roanoke to New River Valley extension going, getting the planned Richmond corridor upgrades in progress, and getting their side of the S-Line started is probably enough to keep them occupied for the next ten years - then take another five or six years to plan and start construction on electrification. VRE, through DC service from MARC, or a push from Amtrak could all see the timetable moved up, though.
 
Unless there's a major shift in priorities, I don't figure electrification would move faster than that. The current state of VA passenger rail projects is already ambitious. The goal, I think correctly, seems to be coverage and service improvements first. Getting the East-West corridor open, getting the Manassas VRE/Lynchburg Amtrak improvements underway, getting the Roanoke to New River Valley extension going, getting the planned Richmond corridor upgrades in progress, and getting their side of the S-Line started is probably enough to keep them occupied for the next ten years - then take another five or six years to plan and start construction on electrification. VRE, through DC service from MARC, or a push from Amtrak could all see the timetable moved up, though.
Virginia certainly has a plate full of projects, and I really hope many of them work out as this is my home state. Electrification may have years to go here; however, I can imagine partial electrification being established on the S-Line for any intercity trains that intend to utilize the line and Airo sets. Although, such routes likely won’t see the sets until the listed routes already planned to have them have the sets in full service.
 
As noted above, electrification of First Street tunnel is desperately needed to allow shorter headways. But I am concerned by negative comments by VRPA regarding electrification. Does the deal with CSX prohibit electrification on the tracks south of L'Enfant they now own?
 
As noted above, electrification of First Street tunnel is desperately needed to allow shorter headways. But I am concerned by negative comments by VRPA regarding electrification. Does the deal with CSX prohibit electrification on the tracks south of L'Enfant they now own?
I don’t know the exact reason but didn’t CSX complain about wires “getting in the way” of double stacked containers? If so, the deal likely involved no wires.
 
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As noted above, electrification of First Street tunnel is desperately needed to allow shorter headways. But I am concerned by negative comments by VRPA regarding electrification. Does the deal with CSX prohibit electrification on the tracks south of L'Enfant they now own?
Actually there will finally be 4 tracks from 1st street to Franconia. It will be the 2 western tracks owned by VA DOT from 1st street to past ALX. So, see no problem of wires as far as past ALX.
 
Virginia is financially conservative, but before getting into all that, there seem to be few examples in the US and Canada (and Mexico?) of new or planned intercity good frequency and/or electrification. The West Coast, plus Brightline Florida, maybe that's all? The Empire Service in NY is frequent, but overcrowded. By new or planned I mean actually running now, or funded, or pretty well committed to happen.

Now the boring part. Transportation in Virginia has been "pay-as-you-go" for a very long time. Bond issues happen, but not nearly as much as in other states. As far as I know, this is still true. (It does have those privately funded toll roads and bridges now, like elsewhere.) When the state made the big announcement half a decade ago of buying RF&P track and Buckingham Branch track (and the S-line ?), the other component was a new rail trust fund. (Like Al Gore's lockbox! Kidding, humor for grayheads.) Yes, it was to stabilize long-term funding. But the same "pay-go" delays large capital improvements in transportation, especially in independent cities. They have to build up the funds over years. I'm not up on the latest, but who is, with journalism diminished? Also not around insiders much these days. But the trust fund was as newsworthy as the track purchases.

Plate is full, rail is expensive. It's hard to see electrification ever coming to the RF&P, since like NES28 says, it's not seen as a tangible benefit compared to other stuff. Eh, who knows, the plate will not always be full.

Successful passenger rail numbers are great, took some doing.* But for close to decent frequency, you have to go to the station in Richmond, or be in Northern Virginia. The plans are just to add a few trains here and there, as far as frequency goes. The other projects are S-line + extensive improvements for Richmond; Blacksburg/VT extension; and Richmond to Charlottesville. Real work is ongoing in Northern Virginia / DC. And new Newport News opens in the fall. The state's Virginia Breeze intercity bus service is adding a fourth line (they are all once daily).

(*) A lot money went to CSX and NS to make Amtrak expansion happen. So let's do the hit parade. For CSX, two decades ago selling track to BB to run only CSX trains was a massive soak of the short line subsidy. For NS, well it moved headquarters from Norfolk to Atlanta. So thanks a lot!
 
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The VA CSX deal at least for now prohibits overhead electrification within 20' of CSX tracks (I don't recall if that's from centerline, closest rail, or something else). The S-Line rebuild naturally won't have that restriction, and there's mandatory clearances for new infrastructure on the NCRR main to allow four electrified tracks, but the DC-Fredricksburg-Richmond section is by far the most used passenger segment and the easiest to justify a high fixed cost, low incremental cost upgrade. The VA segment of the S-Line could be built for 110+ and justify electrification that way...
 
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