Russian Railways stressed

Willbridge · Aug 6, 2024

This report may be overdone, but it fits the way that Soviet railways were run in Stalin's time. Accidents were attributed to sabotage, not to Precision Scheduling. Some division superintendents were shot.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/com...S&cvid=88236994100a4c86b7b49c4aed742793&ei=53

There was lots of redundancy built into the Russian railways, as this 2010 photo of a coach yard on the Trans-Siberian line illustrates. Double track segments were built with second bridges rather than sharing a bridge.

jis · Aug 6, 2024

At least in India doubling and tripling is always done by building separate bridges and tunnels without disturbing the existing line, which remains in service throughout except for short outage to put in switches for crossovers at stations and such. One good outcome is that there is plenty of track center distance between the tracks.

Willbridge · Aug 14, 2024

Capture of the Sudzha railway station said to have been a potential intelligence bonanza.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...S&cvid=2b2c306438c947bf97f436ceab646e35&ei=25

On the other hand, Ukrainian railways were so integrated with Russian railways that all that is needed is already known. However, the speed of the incursion may have left documents unharmed and computer terminals open.

cirdan · Aug 15, 2024

Willbridge said:
On the other hand, Ukrainian railways were so integrated with Russian railways that all that is needed is already known. However, the speed of the incursion may have left documents unharmed and computer terminals open.

It's a big if to assume that random terminals in a provincial station would be able to access secret movements of troops or equipment. This would mean every village station clerk would need to have military level security clearance.

Metra Electric Rider · Aug 15, 2024

The impression I have is that russia is decidedly low-tech at a general level compared to the Ukraine which has quickly caught up to the west and certainly their soldiers were often shocked when they arrived in the Ukraine.

If the military had used the station, there might have been documents left behind...

Willbridge · Aug 15, 2024

cirdan said:
It's a big if to assume that random terminals in a provincial station would be able to access secret movements of troops or equipment. This would mean every village station clerk would need to have military level security clearance.

I recommend viewing the Critical Past site's 1945 film of the North Platte Canteen or the YouTube clips. Somehow wives of UP employees knew about the "Mains" (troop trains). There's a good book about it by a Chicago Sun-Times journalist. It's really difficult to keep operations a secret.

https://www.amazon.com/Once-Upon-To...hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583589102271747&psc=1

Willbridge · Aug 15, 2024

In the meantime:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...S&cvid=5855f1b76414484a8508ef83c67886b6&ei=52

George Harris · Aug 16, 2024

Willbridge said:
There was lots of redundancy built into the Russian railways, as this 2010 photo of a coach yard on the Trans-Siberian line illustrates. Double track segments were built with second bridges rather than sharing a bridge.

This is almost certainly because the line as initially built was single track and the second track added later. It makes no sense to build a completely new bridge for two tracks. It is far less costly and less disruptive to build a parallel structure for the new second track.

jis · Aug 16, 2024

George Harris said:
This is almost certainly because the line as initially built was single track and the second track added later. It makes no sense to build a completely new bridge for two tracks. It is far less costly and less disruptive to build a parallel structure for the new second track.

As I mentioned elsewhere this (building a separate single or multiple track railroad specially as far as bridges and tunnels go), is standard practice in India when an original single track route is double or an original double track railroad is triple or multiple tracked.

Willbridge · Aug 19, 2024

George Harris said:
This is almost certainly because the line as initially built was single track and the second track added later. It makes no sense to build a completely new bridge for two tracks. It is far less costly and less disruptive to build a parallel structure for the new second track.

The line definitely was built as single track, and then the second track was added. It was single track for WW1, with infrequent sidings. That's part of the story of the U.S. Railroad Service (mostly GN) sent to help them with wartime traffic. The line was double-track by the early 1960's.

Willbridge · Aug 19, 2024

Willbridge said:
In the meantime:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...S&cvid=5855f1b76414484a8508ef83c67886b6&ei=52

More detail about the difficulties created by the incursion in the Kursk Oblast.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...S&cvid=cd669e5edca84f37a19b188145651394&ei=32

cirdan · Aug 20, 2024

George Harris said:
This is almost certainly because the line as initially built was single track and the second track added later. It makes no sense to build a completely new bridge for two tracks. It is far less costly and less disruptive to build a parallel structure for the new second track.

and also dovetails nicely with the Soviet philosophy of making everything to cookie-cutter designs. I have heard that during WW2 the Red Army were having to rebuild thousands of bridges that the Germans were blowing up in their wake as they retreated. The Red Army essentially had full-blown production lines and they were installing bridges virtually every day to permit the flow of trains to the front. I guess its easier to install two parallel one-track spans than to have a separate production line for double-track bridges. Anyway, most lines were initially restored only to single-track configuration, with the second track often being dismantled to provide spare track for use elsewhere, and not put back until many years later (if at all).

I know of one location in Germany where, according to local lore, a bridge that had been dynamited was simply cut in half and the good half moved to a different location where a shorter span sufficed. I guess this would have been the sort of decision that the Red Army would have taken on the ground and put into immediate effect without having to go through extended studies or asking for permission.

Also, having two separate parallel spans provides more redundancy should one be the target of a missile strike.

BlackDiamond · Aug 20, 2024

Willbridge said:
More detail about the difficulties created by the incursion in the Kursk Oblast.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...S&cvid=cd669e5edca84f37a19b188145651394&ei=32

Although you have to wonder how long the Ukrainians can hold out, given the difficulty of supplying troops in this incursion. But I guess this is not the forum for discussing military tactics, except where they affect train travel.

cirdan · Aug 20, 2024

Indeed.

And also, this being war, both sides are in total propaganda mode, overplaying successes and denying or distracting from failures.

Metra Electric Rider · Aug 20, 2024

cirdan said:
and also dovetails nicely with the Soviet philosophy of making everything to cookie-cutter designs. I have heard that during WW2 the Red Army were having to rebuild thousands of bridges that the Germans were blowing up in their wake as they retreated. The Red Army essentially had full-blown production lines and they were installing bridges virtually every day to permit the flow of trains to the front. I guess its easier to install two parallel one-track spans than to have a separate production line for double-track bridges. Anyway, most lines were initially restored only to single-track configuration, with the second track often being dismantled to provide spare track for use elsewhere, and not put back until many years later (if at all).

I know of one location in Germany where, according to local lore, a bridge that had been dynamited was simply cut in half and the good half moved to a different location where a shorter span sufficed. I guess this would have been the sort of decision that the Red Army would have taken on the ground and put into immediate effect without having to go through extended studies or asking for permission.

Also, having two separate parallel spans provides more redundancy should one be the target of a missile strike.

Reputedly when they were returning to Russia, the tanks were loaded up with things like bathtubs etc. They even took whole Opel production lines with them (seems like this has happened* several times in history - either requisitioned during war, purchased wholesale or licensed copies - like the Buick V6/V8 to Rover).

*replicating production line & vehicle/product wholesale - was just reading about a case, hence it's freshness in my mind, but can't remember who and a history search doesn't exactly help.

cirdan · Aug 20, 2024

Metra Electric Rider said:
Reputedly when they were returning to Russia, the tanks were loaded up with things like bathtubs etc. They even took whole Opel production lines with them (seems like this has happened* several times in history - either requisitioned during war, purchased wholesale or licensed copies - like the Buick V6/V8 to Rover).

*replicating production line & vehicle/product wholesale - was just reading about a case, hence it's freshness in my mind, but can't remember who and a history search doesn't exactly help.

Indeed. There was a lot of pilfering by individual soldiers. In fact one of the famous photos showing Russians soldiers celebrating in Berlin has recently been revealed to have been doctored. They painted over the wrists of one of the soldiers to hide that he was wearing a watch on both wrists.

There was also official requisitioning of material. For example a large number of electric locomotives were shipped back to Russia, despite them being both the wrong voltage and wrong gauge.

Whole factories were shipped over and I believe the Soviet camera brand Kiev, which later found markets in the West for a period as a low cost alternative to medium format cameras such as Hasselblad, was in fact a German engineered and designed camera that the Soviets (well Ukrainians) continued to manufacture for decades after, on a production line they had requisitioned and shipped over wholesale. They made hardly any changes over the decades other than cosmetic, with production not officially ceasing until 2009, although in the final years there were only a handful of people employed in a factory that from what I've heard was literally falling to bits, while serving a dwindling and very niche customer base. I was fortunate in being able to obtain one of the last cameras produced. The pictures it takes are very good, vivid and crisp, unsurprisingly reminiscent of pre-war German cameras. I could never get the exposure meter to work. I have heard from others that this appeared to be a common problem.

Willbridge · Aug 21, 2024

cirdan said:
Indeed. There was a lot of pilfering by individual soldiers. In fact one of the famous photos showing Russians soldiers celebrating in Berlin has recently been revealed to have been doctored. They painted over the wrists of one of the soldiers to hide that he was wearing a watch on both wrists.

There was also official requisitioning of material. For example a large number of electric locomotives were shipped back to Russia, despite them being both the wrong voltage and wrong gauge.

I have a book by a mid-level Reichsbahn manager that shows the friendship ceremony when the Soviet Army returned the electrification equipment.

BlackDiamond · Aug 21, 2024

I have seen reports that the AFU have blown up a number of bridges in the Kursk Oblast which is hampering Russian troop and logistics transport, although the pictures I have seen appear to show highway bridges. I don't know if they have taken out any rail bridges. The Russians apparently use rail for much of their troop and supply movements.

Metra Electric Rider · Aug 21, 2024

Interestingly, we (we being the United States, specifically a locomotive mfr, GE maybe), was building the Soviets an electric locomotive after the war and when the cold war kicked into high gear it couldn't be sold to them so it went to like Brazil, iirc.

John Bredin · Aug 21, 2024

Metra Electric Rider said:
Interestingly, we (we being the United States, specifically a locomotive mfr, GE maybe), was building the Soviets an electric locomotive after the war and when the cold war kicked into high gear it couldn't be sold to them so it went to like Brazil, iirc.

A lot closer than Brazil. Some electric freight locos intended for the Soviet railways went to the electrified interurban Chicago, South Shore & South Bend Railroad and were called "Little Joes" for Joe Stalin. I don't think anyone had the nerve to ask the Generalissimo what he thought of the name.

Actually, some googling shows 5 Little Joes did go to Brazil for the Sao Paulo railway. And some went to the Milwaukee Road.

jis · Aug 21, 2024

Metra Electric Rider said:
Interestingly, we (we being the United States, specifically a locomotive mfr, GE maybe), was building the Soviets an electric locomotive after the war and when the cold war kicked into high gear it couldn't be sold to them so it went to like Brazil, iirc.

Actually of the 20 ordered 12 went to Milwaukee Road, the so called "Little Joe" for Joseph Stalin. Th rest IIRC went possibly to Brazil or some such. The Soviets then collaborated with the French (Alstom in particular) to get electric locomotive technology.

Here is a nice article on early post-war electric traction development in the USSR

https://rollingstockworld.com/locom...he-national-electric-locomotives-development/

Here is the Wikipedia article on Little Joe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Joe_(electric_locomotive)

An informative article about the development of electric traction in Russia from 1929 to early post WWII years

https://janfordsworld.blogspot.com/2019/11/loco-profile-dc-electric-locomotives-in.html

UserNameRequired · Aug 21, 2024

A surviving sample is in the Illinois Railway Museum, this photo is from a visit 3 years ago:

Willbridge · Aug 21, 2024

BlackDiamond said:
I have seen reports that the AFU have blown up a number of bridges in the Kursk Oblast which is hampering Russian troop and logistics transport, although the pictures I have seen appear to show highway bridges. I don't know if they have taken out any rail bridges. The Russians apparently use rail for much of their troop and supply movements.

As best as I can tell, the recently destroyed bridges are highway bridges. The rail disruption is caused by:

the Ukrainians are sitting on the rail line centered in Sudzha.
civilian evacuations -- for which there was no plan.
troop movements -- which include third-class units that likely are slow getting loaded up.

It takes practice to load equipment and vehicles. After Train 3 leaves La Junta, watch to the west and you may see the armor training spur used for training our army.

BlackDiamond · Aug 22, 2024

Willbridge said:
As best as I can tell, the recently destroyed bridges are highway bridges. The rail disruption is caused by:

the Ukrainians are sitting on the rail line centered in Sudzha.

civilian evacuations -- for which there was no plan.

troop movements -- which include third-class units that likely are slow getting loaded up.

It takes practice to load equipment and vehicles. After Train 3 leaves La Junta, watch to the west and you may see the armor training spur used for training our army.

I tried to find Sudzha on OpenRailwayMap and was unsuccessful, doesn't help that the map is only in Cyrillic in that area - I can decode most Cyrillic letters but there are a few that still throw me. Kursk itself seems to be a significant railway junction.

Urban Sky · Aug 22, 2024

BlackDiamond said:
I tried to find Sudzha on OpenRailwayMap and was unsuccessful, doesn't help that the map is only in Cyrillic in that area - I can decode most Cyrillic letters but there are a few that still throw me. Kursk itself seems to be a significant railway junction.

Russian Railways stressed

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