Lake Shore Limited discussion 2023 Q4 - 2024

Trucker72 said:

Thanks, made it by two days, I hope! Supposed to get on the Empire Builder on Monday the 2nd. We have a 5 hour window. I don't know if the bus would endanger that or not.

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The bus would probably be faster than the train and the westbound Lake Shore at ALB is unlikely to be delayed because of it. The bustitution itself would not endanger your Builder connection.

whitepine said:

I, too, have been notified by email of Amtrak’s decision to cancel my train ride from Boston to Albany on 7 October and replace that ride with a five hour bus trip. Months ago I paid $800.00 for a roomette on the Lake Shore Limited, all to myself, so that I might enjoy my first overnight train journey in blissful solitude, so that I might enjoy my first train meal served in my roomette by my smiling attendant, so that I might slide that lovely glass and steel partition home, block out the traveling mob, and turn my gaze outward, upward, into the broad, sunlit uplands of the mind, content in the passing picturesque panoply beyond the window before my eyes.

Instead, without warning or consent, for the paltry lump sum refund of $115.00, I find that I am to be forced onto what I gather will be a packed bus with 11 people sitting and breathing and coughing and sneezing and eating, all within 6 feet of my head, for five hours. Goodbye to solitude; goodbye to mobility; goodbye to served meals, goodbye to the insulation value that I paid for. Frankly, revolting.

As I gather that forced busing at Amtrak’s sole and arbitrary discretion is a common and accepted occurrence within its culture, I was hoping the other members here could advise me on the likelihood of receiving a full refund and cancellation of my LSL journey should I decide that travel on Amtrak trains—or buses or cars or donkey carts—is not for me.

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You have enough time. You should call Amtrak immediately, and tell them that a bustitution is not acceptable to you. If you are polite, but firm, you have a good chance of a refund to the original method of payment. If the agent is not authorized to give a refund, then ask to speak with someone who is.

oregon pioneer said:

You have enough time. You should call Amtrak immediately, and tell them that a bustitution is not acceptable to you. If you are polite, but firm, you have a good chance of a refund to the original method of payment. If the agent is not authorized to give a refund, then ask to speak with someone who is.

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Better yet, call between 8 am and 8 pm ET, M-F, so if the agent refuses, just ask them to be transferred to Customer Relations, which is staffed during those hours. Customer Relations is empowered to do more, and would probably be a more effective move than asking for a supervisor.

However, historically agents do not have a problem with providing a full refund in these kinds of circumstances, so I doubt it would come to that.

whitepine said:

... so that I might enjoy my first train meal served in my roomette by my smiling attendant...

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One can tell it must be your first overnight if you expected a smiling attendant...

Seriously though, being downgraded from a sleeper to a bus is a major travel change, and I feel sure that you would qualify for a full refund.
As Jennifer says above, if the agent won't oblige you, ask to speak to a supervisor.

Isn't it strange that the Amtrak booking conditions fail to cover these "bus substitution" refund entitlements?

zephyr17 said:

I ride the Maple Leaf with some regularity and there is always an engine switch in Albany. That strongly suggests that they switch engines on all services west of Albany and they do not usually run the P32AC-DMs beyond Albany.

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I'd disagree with that, although it's likely the ideal. There are plenty of times 700-series P32s have made it to Toronto.

281 and 283 normally keep the P-32 to Niagara Falls, and return.

Thanks to all for your candid advice. I'm considering the logistics now of busing--how ironic--down from the howling wastes of Maine to NYC and beginning my train journey from Penn Station. (BTW, my immediate destination is Chicago and my ultimate destination is Seattle via the Empire Builder.)

whitepine said:

Thanks to all for your candid advice. I'm considering the logistics now of busing--how ironic--down from the howling wastes of Maine to NYC and beginning my train journey from Penn Station. (BTW, my immediate destination is Chicago and my ultimate destination is Seattle via the Empire Builder.)

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You may enjoy this wonderful journey more than you think, there is often a certain camaraderie on sleeper sections of Amtrak trains that helps everybody get over the awkward parts.

Bon voyage

whitepine said:

Thanks to all for your candid advice. I'm considering the logistics now of busing--how ironic--down from the howling wastes of Maine to NYC and beginning my train journey from Penn Station. (BTW, my immediate destination is Chicago and my ultimate destination is Seattle via the Empire Builder.)

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If you are going to go via New York instead of Boston, you can always take an NE Regional or Acela to New York. Those are never bustituted, have many departures each day, are more comfortable than a bus, faster than a bus and you can modify your existing Amtrak ticket applying full value to the new routing. Amtrak and Metro North own the railroad itself on that route and it is much less subject to the kinds of disruptions that can be encountered on freight railroad hosts.

However, given the expectations you described on your previous post, I have my doubts on your choice of Amtrak for a multiple day trip. Your initial post makes it sound like you have never traveled long distances on Amtrak before, are unfamiliar with it, and have expectations of it based the depiction of rail travel in old movies. While most here ultimately enjoy Amtrak travel, and do a lot of it, we are also painfully aware of its shortcomings. Long distance trains can be severely late, and by that I mean like 12 hours late, often due to handling by host railroads. On board service is wildly inconsistent with crews whose attitudes and service levels vary widely, from MIA or surly to great. Bad, prepackaged, reheated, sodium bomb meals ("Flex dining") on Eastern LDs ("traditional" on Western and Florida trains is pretty good). Windows that are filthy to the point of being opaque in the glare of bright sunlight, the subject of much discussion here of late. Missed connections due to severely late trains. While Amtrak usually does better than airlines in caring for misconnecting passengers, with hotels and meal allowances provided without argument, a miss can mean lost sleeper accommodations and downgrades to coach for onward travel. The list is long.

Flexibility, a sense of adventure, a sense of humor, and an ability to roll with the punches are often vital to enjoying Amtrak long distance trains. Unrealistically high and rigid expectations are a recipe for disappointment and Amtrak sleeper travel is far from cheap. I encourage people to try it out, usually starting with a relatively short, single night, jaunt, not a multiple day transcontinental trip. But I also caution those new to it that flexibility and the ability to take what comes is key.

Oh, and bring duct or gaffers tape and a Swiss Army knife or Leatherman tool if you are going to go through with it.

Sadly, I realised today that I didn't relish that bustitution on the LSL from Boston after all. A bit too soon after arriving in the USA just the day before.

I cancelled my ticket, but lost 25% of the fare paid. Not a major amount, but I still feel it is wrong. Not many firms can get away with entering into a contract to supply something, changing what is delivered, but then charging 25% because the substitute supplied is not suitable.

I have booked to fly instead. Got a cheap fare on Plummet Airlines.

Again, thanks for the valuable advice. Perhaps “And, oh, bring duct tape” should be adopted as Amtrak’s marketing tagline, LOL. Personally, I prefer Thoreau’s “we do not ride the railroad; it rides upon us”—infinitely truer today than in Henry’s time. I must give credit where it’s due, though, if Amtrak has successfully conditioned its ridership to accept the substitution of bus seat for train cabin with nary a shake of the head than I shall bow to the metastasizing power of corporate marketing while clinging tenaciously to my unrealistically high and rigid expectations. (We’re off to dinner—where I shall ask the waiter to show me the ovens in the back before we are seated at the pizzeria.)

caravanman said:

Sadly, I realised today that I didn't relish that bustitution on the LSL from Boston after all. A bit too soon after arriving in the USA just the day before.

I cancelled my ticket, but lost 25% of the fare paid. Not a major amount, but I still feel it is wrong. Not many firms can get away with entering into a contract to supply something, changing what is delivered, but then charging 25% because the substitute supplied is not suitable.

I have booked to fly instead. Got a cheap fare on Plummet Airlines.

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Thanks for adding it to the record. I intend to have a go at Amtrak's customer service tomorrow and will report its decision here.

whitepine said:

Amtrak has successfully conditioned its ridership to accept the substitution of bus seat for train cabin with nary a shake of the head

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We do not like it, but understand that most bustitutions are outside of Amtrak's control. Amtrak cannot run a train when the host railroad closes the line. Most of us usually do, however, get decent compensation for the inconvenience by pursuing it through Customer Relations. Hint, not customer service. Amtrak considers its regular front line agents to be "customer service" and they are not as empowered to grant as much in the way of compensation as Customer Relations, a separate department handling complaints. Be aware, however, if you want to just cancel BOS-ALB and retain the rest of your trip, even Customer Relations may be unable to do that without triggering a reprice into current bucket which could be considerably more than your current ticket. Your chances of modifying your BOS-ALB segment to BOS-NYP-ALB, as I suggested in a previous post, without triggering a reprice on the rest of your trip are probably better.

Amtrak is the only game in town for long distance sleeper travel in the US. We are well aware of its shortcomings and put up with them not because we are brainwashed, but because it's unfortunately the only option for rail travel. Most of us are generally pretty peeved with Amtrak's demonstrably incompetent management, which you will discover if you spend much time here.

As far as I am concerned, you really ought to save your money and fly. Even airline First Class is often cheaper than Amtrak sleepers. By freaking out at just a half day daytime bustitution on a four day trip to Seattle, due to a line closure, you pretty conclusively show you are not going to be able to just shrug off Amtrak's nearly inevitable inconveniences and annoyances. You will save money, irritation and your blood pressure by flying.

caravanman said:

Sadly, I realised today that I didn't relish that bustitution on the LSL from Boston after all. A bit too soon after arriving in the USA just the day before.

I cancelled my ticket, but lost 25% of the fare paid. Not a major amount, but I still feel it is wrong. Not many firms can get away with entering into a contract to supply something, changing what is delivered, but then charging 25% because the substitute supplied is not suitable.

I have booked to fly instead. Got a cheap fare on Plummet Airlines.

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I am not sure but if you have any leeway in your dates, I don't belive that the Lake Shore is cancelled for conseutive days. I think it is 2 or 3 days here and 2 or 3 there?

Trucker72 said:

I am not sure but if you have any leeway in your dates, I don't belive that the Lake Shore is cancelled for conseutive days. I think it is 2 or 3 days here and 2 or 3 there?

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I am not sure myself about the dates of line work, I know both the outward to Chicago on 4th, and the return on the 22 September are both with bus between Albany and Boston. No matter, I am flying to Chicago from Boston, but will take the train and bus connection on the way back.

Lake Shore Limited Service Changes
Effective September 3 - October 31, 2024

Due to infrastructure work being performed, Amtrak’s Lake Shore Limited Service will be adjusted. These changes are outlined below.

Service Changes

Train 448, which normally operates between Chicago, IL and Boston, MA, will terminate at Albany, NY. This change will be effective September 1 - 4, 7 - 11, 14 - 18, 21 - 25, 28 - 30, October 1 - 2, 5 - 9, 12 - 16, 19 - 23 and 26 - 30.

Train 449, which normally operates between Boston, MA and Chicago, IL, will originate at Albany, NY. This change will be effective September 3 - 5, 9 - 12, 16 - 19, 23 - 26, 30, October 1 - 3, 7 - 10, 14 - 17, 21 - 24 and 28 - 31.

Alternate Transportation

Bus 3448 will provide alternate transportation between Albany, NY and Boston, MA for all missed stops except Framingham, MA and Boston Back Bay, MA. This change will be effective September 2 - 5, 8 - 12, 15 - 19, 22 - 26, 29 - 30, October 1 - 3, 6 - 10, 13 - 17, 20 - 24 and 27 - 31.

Bus 3449 will provide alternate transportation between Boston, MA and Albany, NY for all missed stops except Boston Back Bay, MA and Framingham, MA. This change will be effective September 3 - 5, 9 - 12, 16 - 19, 23 - 26, 30, October 1 - 3, 7 - 10, 14 - 17, 21 - 24 and 28 - 31.

Here's the link to the Passenger Advisory quoted above:
https://www.amtrak.com/alert/lake-shore-limited-service-changes.html

I have to say four days a week for two months seems extreme even for CSX. Anyone know what the heck they are doing?

My conversation with Amtrak customer service today went well, eventually. The first agent, apparently of the customer “service” variety, offered either a full refund of the balance of my account or a modification of my reservation, at my request, which would have me depart on the LSL out of NYC instead of Boston, for an upcharge of $214.00 dollars, even though the current upcharge--which I was seeing on my monitor concurrent with our conversation--had I simply cancelled the Boston reservation and booked a new NYC to Chicago roomette online was only $92.00. I thanked her for her time, asked her not to change a thing and hung up.

The second customer “service” agent, when I explained succinctly that I wished to modify my reservation as above without upcharge of any kind or cancel it entirely and receive a full refund, promptly and without further comment connected me to the third agent, who identified herself as of the customer “relations” variety. She was apparently a very happy person, which I deduced from the fact that she was singing softly to either herself or perhaps to others in the room--or possibly in her head—during our entire happy conversation. As there are many paths to the Buddha I thought little of it and after the third chorus I was asked to check my email. Et Voila!—a new reservation for Train #49 out of NYC magically appeared. Thanks to all, particularly zephyr17, for the patient guidance.

(Of course, the real upcharge will be the $350.00 a night hotel room I must now book in Midtown Manhattan, but the consolation of access to the delights of the Big Apple for a few days is very real in my book.)


I’ve thought up an exciting Amtrak marketing slogan:

Amtrak! The only railroad on Earth that might throw you off the train before you’ve even boarded!

zephyr17 said:

Here's the link to the Passenger Advisory quoted above:
https://www.amtrak.com/alert/lake-shore-limited-service-changes.html

I have to say four days a week for two months seems extreme even for CSX. Anyone know what the heck they are doing?

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That is a remarkable amount of infrastructure work. The sarcastic me wants to say it's high speed rail! But, of course, we know that's not true.

PaTrainFan said:

That is a remarkable amount of infrastructure work. The sarcastic me wants to say it's high speed rail! But, of course, we know that's not true.

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Well, Central Pacific laid 10 miles in one day with a bunch of laborers swinging spike mauls. CSX might want to give it a try.

whitepine said:

I’ve thought up an exciting Amtrak marketing slogan:

Amtrak! The only railroad on Earth that might throw you off the train before you’ve even boarded!

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Oh, there are many more!

"Finding life a strain? You are booking Amtrak again!"

"Book an Amtrak train to really experience that travel pain"

"We make your journey untenable, but still charge you 25% when you cancel"

"See America!"*

*to see America, a personal supply of Windex must be provided. Window transparency not guaranteed.

"Win a Free Night in Chicago! You can be a lucky 12 hour late winner!"

whitepine said:

(Of course, the real upcharge will be the $350.00 a night hotel room I must now book in Midtown Manhattan, but the consolation of access to the delights of the Big Apple for a few days is very real in my book.)

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You can make a same day connection with the Lake Shore from South Station as late as NE Regional 93 at 9:20 am if you want to avoid NY hotel costs. That's actually more what I had in mind by suggesting BOS-NYP-ALB.

But I enjoy NY as well and would probably do an NY layover, too.

For those who don't have the patience to compare the dates in the Amtrak notice with a calendar, the upcoming bustitution of trains 448 and 449 follows the same pattern of CSX track-work disruptions of the past several years: The westbound Lake Shore 449 departs Boston as a train on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays and is replaced by a bus for the Monday-Thursday departures. Eastbound 448 departs Albany for Boston as a train on Fridays and Saturdays (meaning the Thursday and Friday night departures from Chicago run through to Boston); it is replaced by buses on the five other days of the week. I am guessing there is an eastbound deadhead move on Thursday nights to get the equipment to Boston in time for Friday's departure.

If you are on the substitute bus between Boston and Albany, it's likely to be significantly faster than the train, which for people connecting to points west might result in a long layover in Albany if the bus leaves Boston more or less on schedule. When my wife was booked on one of the bustituted runs from Boston to Albany some years ago, she and the other through travelers were put on an express bus to Albany while a second bus made the intermediate stops in Massachusetts. As I recall, the train at that time was due in Albany-Rensselaer at 5:35 p.m.; my wife called at 3:45 to say she had already arrived.

Are there roomettes on the bus?

"Consider a career at Amtrak! Where the passengers are but a minor inconvenience."

Finally, to use an old line about the phone company back when it was a monopoly:

"We don't care, we don't have to."