Amtrak bustitution discussion

What exactly is Amtrak’s legal obligation to someone who buys a ticket and then has their train cancelled in mid-journey, as was the case with the SWC No. 3 passengers who were stranded in Albuquerque earlier this year? According to some of the news stories, some of those people didn’t have enough cash with them to afford meals, a hotel, a plane ticket, etc. If you were a Scout leader shepherding a large group of Scouts, what would you do? If you were an elderly person traveling on your own and without a smart phone or the means of accessing the internet, what would you do? What, if anything, did Amtrak do to help those people? Also, if the stress of being stranded without alternate means of transportation causes someone with a medical condition to require emergency medical treatment, what is Amtrak’s liability?

SubwayNut said:

Then the biggest was ending up on a medical transportation bus out of Prince George when I road the Rocky Mountaineer and the train broke down! Lots of super upset people talking about how "they don't due coaches." and where's our compensation "We ended up getting a Rocky Mountaineer book and a $200 CAN credit which seemed a little poor for how expensive the trip was, at least the breakdown happened after lunch so no missed meals with a box dinner given out in McBride at their train station and visitors center.

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RMR is rather notorious about holding onto your money once they have it. Along with the expense, it is one of the main reasons I refuse to ride with them, although I'd love to ride over Kicking Horse Pass or through Cheakamus Canyon again.

Eric in East County said:

What exactly is Amtrak’s legal obligation to someone who buys a ticket and then has their train cancelled in mid-journey, as was the case with the SWC No. 3 passengers who were stranded in Albuquerque earlier this year? According to some of the news stories, some of those people didn’t have enough cash with them to afford meals, a hotel, a plane ticket, etc. If you were a Scout leader shepherding a large group of Scouts, what would you do? If you were an elderly person traveling on your own and without a smart phone or the means of accessing the internet, what would you do? What, if anything, did Amtrak do to help those people? Also, if the stress of being stranded without alternate means of transportation causes someone with a medical condition to require emergency medical treatment, what is Amtrak’s liability?

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Their immediate obligation is a refund, and that is it. They didn't provide the transportation paid for so they are obligated to return the money since they did not fulfill the contract the ticket represents.

For things you describe, Amtrak might (or might not) be found liable. It would take hiring a lawyer and filing an arbitration case, though. BTW, you agree to arbitration by purchasing a ticket these days, you are giving up your right to file suit against Amtrak, that's also part of the contract.

You are not going to get medical expenses or other damages out of Customer Relations.

zephyr17 said:

Their immediate obligation is a refund, and that is it. They didn't provide the transportation paid for so they are obligated to return the money since they did not fulfill the contract the ticket represents.

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There should be some information available on how Amtrak handled the passengers on the SWC No. 4 which, on June 27, 2022, derailed and ended up on its side after hitting a truck. There were passengers who were injured. Who paid their medical bills? What arrangements were made to assist those passengers who were not injured to continue to their ticketed destinations? Did Amtrak arrange their alternate transportation? Did those passengers have to pay their own way, or did Amtrak do so? This is admittedly an extreme example, but it raises questions as to how far Amtrak can or will go to assist passengers when it can’t provide the transportation paid for.

Eric in East County said:

There should be some information available on how Amtrak handled the passengers on the SWC No. 4 which, on June 27, 2022, derailed and ended up on its side after hitting a truck. There were passengers who were injured. Who paid their medical bills? What arrangements were made to assist those passengers who were not injured to continue to their ticketed destinations? Did Amtrak arrange their alternate transportation? Did those passengers have to pay their own way, or did Amtrak do so? This is admittedly an extreme example, but it raises questions as to how far Amtrak can or will go to assist passengers when it can’t provide the transportation paid for.

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Well, the probably took care of most immediate needs, but since it is pretty clear that it was that truck company's fault, they probably sued the the truck company along with Amtrak. Amtrak certainly sued the truck company for any money paid it out, along with their own losses and payments to passengers.

That was a high profile incident and Amtrak probably paid more immediate costs than they would have in a cancellation that did not get as much media play. Anything beyond a simple refund and/or alternative transportation when offered, especially possible stress related medical claims, would pretty much require legal action. Direct physical injuries they'd probably cover initially and agree to be directly billed for, then they'd go after that trucking company. Since a wreck wasn't involved in the cancellation, it would almost certainly require some form of legal action to have Amtrak cover anything much beyond a refund. Especially pain/suffering/stress related medical. Any company will fight those straight out of the gate.

Travel insurance would probably cover alternate transportation. You'd be pretty hard pressed to collect on anything stress related even from them, though. Amtrak, like an airline, you'd probably need to fight.

Travel insurance, and, since they operate on a reimbursement basis, a good credit card limit are the ways through.

Life is tough. At the end of the day, corporations and insurance carriers are very cold eyed

I have experienced two bus bridges / bustitutions. The first, back in 2004, was on my very first Amtrak tour. Booking the Texas Eagle between Los Angeles and Chicago, in sleeper, we were late into San Antonio, and the main train had already departed. We were bused up to Dallas to catch it from there, with a rest stop at a fast food place en route.

I remember being amazed that we could start out hours behind the train, and still catch it up in a motorcoach! (In Europe, trains mostly run faster than road vehicles...). I also remember being relieved to find Amtrak had a "spare" sleeper coach attached for me, as the original one from Los Angeles was now in San Antonio.

The second bus bridge was from a station somewhere after Albany, up into Boston. ( I believe a fatality ahead had caused the line to be closed suddenly. )

While the new prospect of a bus ride, instead of remaining on the train, is less than great, I appreciate that in life many things can go awry.

What does irritate me, as it seems to border on "illegal commercial behaviour", is this:

When booking a train ride, one accepts the conditions, the small print, etc, etc. If the train ride offered is materially altered by a bus inclusion, in advance of departure, after payment, surely the customer should have the legal right to cancel and get their full payment back?

I was charged a 25% cancellation fee, which I accept is reasonable on a basic ticket if I change my plans, but not when the item "purchased" is substituted by the vendor?

caravanman said:

I have experienced two bus bridges / bustitutions. The first, back in 2004, was on my very first Amtrak tour. Booking the Texas Eagle between Los Angeles and Chicago, in sleeper, we were late into San Antonio, and the main train had already departed. We were bused up to Denver to catch it from there, with a rest stop at a fast food place en route.

I remember being amazed that we could start out hours behind the train, and still catch it up in a motorcoach! (In Europe, trains mostly run faster than road vehicles...). I also remember being relieved to find Amtrak had a "spare" sleeper coach attached for me, as the original one from Los Angeles was now in San Antonio.

The second bus bridge was from a station somewhere after Albany, up into Boston. ( I believe a fatality ahead had caused the line to be closed suddenly. )

While the new prospect of a bus ride, instead of remaining on the train, is less than great, I appreciate that in life many things can go awry.

What does irritate me, as it seems to border on "illegal commercial behaviour", is this:

When booking a train ride, one accepts the conditions, the small print, etc, etc. If the train ride offered is materially altered by a bus inclusion, in advance of departure, after payment, surely the customer should have the legal right to cancel and get their full payment back?

I was charged a 25% cancellation fee, which I accept is reasonable on a basic ticket if I change my plans, but not when the item "purchased" is substituted by the vendor?

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Bet you meant to type Dallas instead of Denver Eddie!

Or did AI do it for you?

Bob Dylan said:

Bet you meant to type Dallas instead of Denver Eddie!

Or did AI do it for you?

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Yes Jim, it was of course Dallas, now edited thanks!

(No AI, I make all my own mistakes! )

zephyr17 said:

That was a high profile incident and Amtrak probably paid more immediate costs than they would have in a cancellation that did not get as much media play. Anything beyond a simple refund and/or alternative transportation when offered, especially possible stress related medical claims, would pretty much require legal action. Direct physical injuries they'd probably cover initially and agree to be directly billed for, then they'd go after that trucking company. Since a wreck wasn't involved in the cancellation, it would almost certainly require some form of legal action to have Amtrak cover anything much beyond a refund. Especially pain/suffering/stress related medical. Any company will fight those straight out of the gate.

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Keep in mind that Amtrak, like most corporations, requires you to arbitrate any disputes rather than sue in court, and arbitration also prevents the use of class actions on behalf of multiple persons impacted. As a practical matter, if every individual has to separately prove liability, the cases become too expensive to try, even in arbitration. And keep in mind that, typically, the corporation chooses the arbitrator to decide the case, who of course must be compensated for doing the arbitration. While the corporation's 'generous' offer to choose and even pay the arbitrator may seem like a good deal, arbitrators know that ruling against the corporation will make it much less likely that they will get repeat business from the corporation.

You might have seen the recent case that got a lot of publicity in the media where a man whose wife died as a result of eating food with undisclosed allergens at a Disneyland restaurant. Disney took the position that the man's signing up for a free trial of Disney's cable channel years earlier-- a trial offer that he never actually converted to a paid subscription-- meant that he had agreed to arbitrate any and all disputes with Disney, then and till the end of time. After a couple of weeks, Disney backed down from this, though still insisting that the perpetual arbitration clause was enforceable. They noted that they would not apply it in this case, as a one time voluntary accommodation to the widower. Though I strongly suspect that the huge amount of negative publicity they got may have encouraged their 'accommodation'.

I didn't mention this but I also canceled a round-trip, day trip to Quincy two weeks ago on the Carl Sandburg when it was subsituted for a bus. I'm so close to finishing every inch of Amtrak so I was looking forward to a day trip to Quincy.

I've only bussed once since 1978. Late husband and I took a western loop from FTN>CHI>SAC>PDX> CHI>FTN. On the northbound Starlight we were bussed from Klamath Falls to Portland as we were running late and would miss the eastbound Builder. Much to my surprise it was a very enjoyable and scenic ride. We did have have several young ones on board that enjoyed crying and screaming. The bus was equipped with video monitors but no entertainment. We stopped for a lunch break at a Dairy Queen and while there husband ran to the little store next door and bought a couple of $2.00 VHS tapes of kid's movies. He ask the driver if he would plug them in and run them. He did and sudden quiet. It had been years since I had been on an intercity bus (last one was a Greyhound Scenicruiser as a kid) and I actually enjoyed it. Though our bedroom on the Starlight woulda been preferred.

flitcraft said:

While the corporation's 'generous' offer to choose and even pay the arbitrator may seem like a good deal, arbitrators kney noted that they would not apply it in this case, as a one time voluntary accommodation to the widower. Though I strongly suspect that the huge amount of negative publicity they got may have encouraged their 'accommodation'.

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Of course the publicity was the only factor. While I despise modern social media (and yet, here I am, haha), it can play a powerful role in getting corporations to back down.

I know this because I worked in a corporation that was highly sensitive to public criticism. And I know of many instances when it did "the right thing" for customers only after taking body blows through social media.

I'm getting a new door for my 20 Escape because there are failing spot welds for the door check arm. NHTSA did not order a recall and closed the case, its a big PITA but not a huge safety issue, Ford issued a customer service bulletin and will inspect and do the work at no charge and extend coverage if it hasn't happened yet. They started to look bad as the number of reports increased. (door is ordered, I have to go back after it arrives and is painted)

PaTrainFan said:

Of course the publicity was the only factor. While I despise modern social media (and yet, here I am, haha), it can play a powerful role in getting corporations to back down.

I know this because I worked in a corporation that was highly sensitive to public criticism. And I know of many instances when it did "the right thing" for customers only after taking body blows through social media.

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I can understand why a private sector corporation, which must operate at a profit to survive, would be sensitive to social media’s coverage of how it does business.

It my understanding that Amtrak does not exist to make a profit but to provide a Federally mandated service. IMHO, it is probably not as sensitive to how social media covers the manner in which it provides that service.

The 518 rail miles for the Crescent bustitution ATL <> NOL in Jan & FEB each year, It is 470 miles by way of I-85, I-65, I-10 by way of Montgomery - Mobile non stop about 6:30 although have done it under 6 hours by just pushing speed limits less than 5 MPH. I20 -I-59-I-10 490 miles but has taken 7:30+. Very seldom that there are enough riders to fill a whole but for I-85, Usually enough riders to . from BHM to allow one bus ATL - BHM - NOL. Another one or 2 for all the intermediate stops.

That sure beats the scheduled RR crescent 12:45 NOL <> ATL

west point said:

The 518 rail miles for the Crescent bustitution ATL <> NOL in Jan & FEB each year, It is 470 miles by way of I-85, I-65, I-10 by way of Montgomery - Mobile non stop about 6:30 although have done it under 6 hours by just pushing speed limits less than 5 MPH. I20 -I-59-I-10 490 miles but has taken 7:30+. Very seldom that there are enough riders to fill a whole but for I-85, Usually enough riders to . from BHM to allow one bus ATL - BHM - NOL. Another one or 2 for all the intermediate stops.

That sure beats the scheduled RR crescent 12:45 NOL <> ATL

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To eliminate the annual suspension of the Crescent route south of Atlanta, the Crescent should be rerouted onto it's more direct pre-1970 route through Auburn, Montgomery, and Mobile, AL. The Meridian to Atlanta portion of the current routing can be served by the proposed new LD train from Dallas-Fort Worth to Atlanta paralleling I-20. Meridian to NOL could be served by either a new daily state supported train taking the Crescent's current slot between the two cities or a Thruway bus connection.

Anthony V said:

To eliminate the annual suspension of the Crescent route south of Atlanta, the Crescent should be rerouted onto it's more direct pre-1970 route through Auburn, Montgomery, and Mobile, AL.

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A few years ago CSX had that route closed for track work as well. Cannot remember the time but believe it was different than the NS work window. Of course the best would be both routes run for Amtrak. Maybe one route at night best for a 2nd train.