Do assistant conductors have to do the job of a brakeman?

Do assistant conductors have to do the job of a brakeman such as coupling the train cars and air hoses together? Or do assistant conductors just focus on helping passengers board on/off the trains and verifying tickets?

All of the above applies to the Assistant Conductor jobs.

homersimpson101 said:

Do assistant conductors have to do the job of a brakeman such as coupling the train cars and air hoses together? Or do assistant conductors just focus on helping passengers board on/off the trains and verifying tickets?

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If the air line or HEP connectors part for some reason, they'll reconnect them. Mostly that is done by people in the terminal yard that make up the consist, though. I think they do the work involved in coupling, separating the Empire Builder in Spokane, I do not think they have car men there but am unsure. I know there are car men at Albany on the Lake Shore separation/joining, I've watched them. I am unsure about Spokane because I don't get off the train to watch there, being the middle of the night.

Conductors and ACs will handle hand throw switches in places without CTC, like much of the Coast Line in California, or the Glorietta and Raton Subs in New Mexico. They'll get out and inspect the train if a dragger or hot box detector alerts. On one trip I was on they had to do it in a snowstorm in near zero degree weather in North Dakota. That had to have been miserable.

Their job is pretty much the same as brakemen. Their title was just modernized, considering brakemen haven't had to handle the brakes on passenger trains since the adoption of air brakes.

zephyr17 said:

Conductors and ACs will handle hand throw switches in places without CTC, like much of the Coast Line in California, or the Glorietta and Raton Subs in New Mexico.

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One place I remember seeing them throw switches is at Palmer, back when the Vermonter used the New England Central (Former Central Vermont) between there and White River Jct. There were hand thrown switches to go from the siding to the NECR tracks.

On my recent trip to the coast, a switch did not respond to the remote signal and dispatch had us stop, place it in manual, throw it so we could move to the station track, throw it back after we cleared, and then put it back in auto. That was done by the AC.

While onboard (Piedmonts), the Assistant Conductors refer to themselves as the "flag", as in flagman, a reference to the traditional crew names: engineer, fireman, conductor, head brakeman (head man) and flagman (rear brakeman, rear man).

jb

zephyr17 said:

Their job is pretty much the same as brakemen. Their title was just modernized, considering brakemen haven't had to handle the brakes on passenger trains since the adoption of air brakes.

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But I believe they still might do that function on freight trains, where Timetable Special Instructions dictate them to set “retainers” while descending long mountain grades…

I took a ride from Chicago to Galesburg on 5 a couple of weeks ago. The AC had to get off and do something with a switch or signals near the interlocking just west of the Monroe St. crossing in Hinsdale, IL. This interested me because I grew up in a house two blocks from that location and used to watch trains pass by there.

We had a 30-minute delay. During the delay, I went downstairs to the bathroom in the rear coach car. I discovered the AC's train orders sitting on the counter. I walked them to the lounge car and handed them to an Amtrak employee. I explained where I found them and who I thought had left them. I did not want them to be thrown out by someone who did not know their importance, nor did I want to sit with them and try to give them to the AC. I am not sure I handled this the correct way.

Steve4031 said:

I took a ride from Chicago to Galesburg on 5 a couple of weeks ago. The AC had to get off and do something with a switch or signals near the interlocking just west of the Monroe St. crossing in Hinsdale, IL. This interested me because I grew up in a house two blocks from that location and used to watch trains pass by there.

We had a 30-minute delay. During the delay, I went downstairs to the bathroom in the rear coach car. I discovered the AC's train orders sitting on the counter. I walked them to the lounge car and handed them to an Amtrak employee. I explained where I found them and who I thought had left them. I did not want them to be thrown out by someone who did not know their importance, nor did I want to sit with them and try to give them to the AC. I am not sure I handled this the correct way.

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I might have waited a little to see if the A/C returned for them, but it sounds like you handled it as best as can be expected, the way you described the situation…

railiner said:

But I believe they still might do that function on freight trains, where Timetable Special Instructions dictate them to set “retainers” while descending long mountain grades…

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There are no more brakemen in these days of two person crews. There is an engineer and a conductor, both in the cab. Such duties fall to the conductor where they still exist. In these days of distributed power I imagine that use of dynamic brakes on the engine sets suffices along with a reduction in brake pipe pressure. I pity the conductor who has to set retainers on a three mile long monster of a PSR freight train.

Amtrak still called them brakemen at least into the 1990s, long after their role on a passenger train had become assisting the conductor with rather rare involvement with brakes and flags. Does anyone know offhand when they were renamed?

Siegmund said:

Amtrak still called them brakemen at least into the 1990s, long after their role on a passenger train had become assisting the conductor with rather rare involvement with brakes and flags. Does anyone know offhand when they were renamed?

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I do not recall precisely, but I am pretty sure it was in the later 1990s.

I do recall thinking at the time that it made sense as "Assistant Conductor" was a better description of their actual duties.

Siegmund said:

Amtrak still called them brakemen at least into the 1990s, long after their role on a passenger train had become assisting the conductor with rather rare involvement with brakes and flags. Does anyone know offhand when they were renamed?

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Now that I'm at a computer I can go a little more into detail about the terms of "Brakemen" "Flag" etc.

The term Brakemen is still used frequently. A three man crew on a regional train will consist of Condcutor (who normally works the front of the train), "Middle Brake" who will work the middle of the train, and the "Flag" who will work the back of the train. The term "Flag" is what was done when a train was leaving the station and a conductor would be sticking their head out of the door to ensure no one was stuck in a door or chasing a train etc.

I think Amtrak renaming Fireman to Assistant Engineer, and Trainman to Assistant Conductor, had more to do with gender-neutral political correctness than anything else…

railiner said:

I think Amtrak renaming Fireman to Assistant Engineer,

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It might also have had something to do with Amtrak never having steam engines to fire...

zephyr17 said:

It might also have had something to do with Amtrak never having steam engines to fire...

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But they did have steam generators to fire…

As in GG-1’s, SDP-40F’s, and E-60CP’s, and various boiler cars…

railiner said:

But they did have steam generators to fire…

As in GG-1’s, SDP-40F’s, and E-60CP’s, and various boiler cars…

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They didn't require firing the same way, since they didn't have to respond to a throttle, which required a fireman's care even in oil fired steam engines. My understanding is steam generators did not require much enroute care, they just sat and drank diesel and boiled water. They were usually positioned at the aft end of units, away from where the fireman sat in the cab, and didn't require much tending.

I never heard of a fireman being stationed in a boiler car.

Acela150 said:

Now that I'm at a computer I can go a little more into detail about the terms of "Brakemen" "Flag" etc.

The term Brakemen is still used frequently. A three man crew on a regional train will consist of Condcutor (who normally works the front of the train), "Middle Brake" who will work the middle of the train, and the "Flag" who will work the back of the train. The term "Flag" is what was done when a train was leaving the station and a conductor would be sticking their head out of the door to ensure no one was stuck in a door or chasing a train etc.

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I believe Flagman refers to the act of flagging (protecting) the rear of the train when unexpectedly stopped. In the old days of timetable and train order operation and without automatic block signals, the rules assumed a train would keep moving at authorized speed so that a following train could also proceed (generally, separation rules were stricter for passenger trains than freight trains). If a train was stopped, the flagman went back the prescribed distance to flag down any following train. When the train was ready to move again, the engineer "whistled in the flag" (blew the prescribed signal) and the flagman would leave fusees (flares) burning to protect the train while he made his way back. The engineer waited to give him time to come back - if he started before the flagman was back, the conductor used the caboose brake valve to stop the train. Similarly, if the train was merely slow, the flagman protected the rear by dropping fusees every few minutes. Since fusees burned for set amount of time (they were usually five or ten minute fusees), the protection went away on its own.

When I worked for a railroad briefly over 40 years ago, their rules still required flagman to flag unless the train was protected by at least two automatic block signals, were in yard limits, or they had a train order saying no flagging needed (typically a branch line that never had more than one train on it at a time so the dispatcher protected them by not authorizing a second train). Where I worked, it was all either signaled or yard limits so no flagging was needed anywhere on our division.

zephyr17 said:

They didn't require firing the same way, since they didn't have to respond to a throttle, which required a fireman's care even in oil fired steam engines. My understanding is steam generators did not require much enroute care, they just sat and drank diesel and boiled water. They were usually positioned at the aft end of units, away from where the fireman sat in the cab, and didn't require much tending.

I never heard of a fireman being stationed in a boiler car.

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Wherever the source of steam, it fell on the fireman to monitor and operate as necessary…

I remember riding the Coast Starlight in the summer of 1985 and seeing an operating crew member in the rear coach. I walked back to look out the railfan window. I asked permission to stand there because I had just graduated high school and was leary of annoying him and being shooed away. He let me stay and answered questions. This was when I discovered hotbox detectors. I overheard the automated report that the train had "no defects" and the braking saying, "Okay, Amtrak 12, highball the dragger." I asked this crew member about it, and he explained what was going on.

What is the training for some one to become an assistant conductor? Is it just same as conductor? Do hired conductors start out as ACs then become a conductor? How do ACs become fully qualified on the route they are assigned? If fully qualified can an AC take over for a conductor unable to continue?

The standard career path is assistant conductor to conductor. I don't know about if a conductor hired laterally from a freight or commuter railroad can be hired on directly as a conductor, I suspect they can. Assistant Conductor trainees can and are hired off the street with no railroad experience, Amtrak will provide all training. They hold regular training classes. Amtrak OBS employees often transfer to T&E service as ACs, though they must attend and pass the training.

All T&E crew must be rules qualified and fully qualified on territories they work. They become territory qualified by making "student" trips on the route until they become qualified. I am not what the criteria is in determining "qualified", it may just be x number of student trips. There are a few detour routes where Amtrak maintains crew qualifications, one that comes to mind is the ex-SP East Valley line via Roseville between Sacramento (Haggin Jct) and Marysville (Binney Jct) instead of the ex-WP line. They maintain qualification by student trips on freights.

I am not sure whether, on a train that requires both a conductor and an AC, the AC can be a student under the conductor on and still be "on duty" or whether it requires a territory qualified AC with the "student" just along for the ride. I think it is the latter, and I know that on conductor/AC student trips they frequently ride in the cab.

As to taking over, whether an AC is required on a given train and the number of ACs required is a union agreement thing. From a rules perspective, if a conductor fell ill the train could could continue with just the AC, I am not sure about that from a union agreement perspective. I know that a train could not leave a terminal/crew change point without its full compliment of engineer, assistant engineer, conductor, and assistant conductor(s).