Caltrain starting public electric service on August 11, 2024

[zephyr17]

Airos are really not well suited for providing high average speed frequent suburban service with frequent stops. Airos are fine for NEC style regional service with less frequent stops, but they would be somewhat similar to NJT's heavy commuter trains that poke along a slow average speeds on a frequent stop suburban service.

Caltrain could have opted for electro-diesel dual mode EDMUs if they thought it was an important consideration, but they did not so choose. Clearly they are unlikely to retain a large fleet of F40s in serviceable condition continuously (it costs a lot of money to do so) to address an issue they chose not to address in the type of equipment they ordered.

I do wonder how dependent they are on the grid. PG&E, the utility in the area, will shut down power transmission in areas where there is high fire danger, blacking or browning out large parts of their service area. Since they were found responsible for the deadly Camp Fire that wiped our Paradise, CA a few years ago, regulators are closely watching them and they are quick to shut off transmission now.

 

[jis]

I do wonder how dependent they are on the grid. PG&E, the utility in the area, will shut down power transmission in areas where there is high fire danger, blacking or browning out large parts of their service area. Since they were found responsible for the deadly Camp Fire that wiped our Paradise, CA a few years ago, regulators are closely watching them and they are quick to shut off transmission now.

It is a legitimate concern. Usually priority customers like transportation etc. tend to not lose power while others are browned or blacked out. At least that is how it is/was handled in allegedly less capable places like India, and even today Indian Railways, which is 95% electrified tends be the last to lose power if at all. I am sure California should be able to match that. I have generally never heard of SFO or LAX losing power too often.

 

[MARC Rider]

It is a legitimate concern. Usually priority customers like transportation etc. tend to not lose power while others are browned or blacked out. At least that is how it is/was handled in allegedly less capable places like India, and even today Indian Railways, which is 95% electrified tends be the last to lose power if at all. I am sure California should be able to match that. I have generally never heard of SFO or LAX losing power too often.

Or BART and Muni.

 

[allanorn]

I do wonder how dependent they are on the grid. PG&E, the utility in the area, will shut down power transmission in areas where there is high fire danger, blacking or browning out large parts of their service area. Since they were found responsible for the deadly Camp Fire that wiped our Paradise, CA a few years ago, regulators are closely watching them and they are quick to shut off transmission now.

PG&E handles the transmission of power, but the Peninsula has a relatively low fire-risk. Caltrain probably has an agreement to ensure they're one of the last to lose power and one of the first to get it back if it ever happened.

Caltrain could have opted for electro-diesel dual mode EDMUs if they thought it was an important consideration, but they did not so choose. Clearly they are unlikely to retain a large fleet of F40s in serviceable condition continuously (it costs a lot of money to do so) to address an issue they chose not to address in the type of equipment they ordered.

I imagine it must also be cost-prohibitive to rebuild F-40s to be tier IV compliant, plus adhere to whatever additional California standards are in place. I think Caltrain is keeping their MP36s for the Gilroy runs because they can be made compliant?

 

[zephyr17]

PG&E handles the transmission of power, but the Peninsula has a relatively low fire-risk. Caltrain probably has an agreement to ensure they're one of the last to lose power and one of the first to get it back if it ever happened.

I understand the peninsula itself is relatively low fire risk, but electricity in California can be transmitted over long distances, much is not locally generated. PG&E has one of the worst safety records (Camp and other fires), is under a regulatory microscope, and has not invested in upgrading their infrastructure. It is quick to shut down high tension transmission lines now as result. Just because the Pennisula itself is relatively low fire risk, that doesn't mean the high tension lines getting it there do not traverse high risk areas. And much of rural and semi-rural California those lines cross is a tinder box these days.

That CalTrain may be the last to be cut off is valid, though.

 

[Anthony V]

Now that Caltrain has been electrified, there is now a massive glut in gallery cars and F40PH's. It's likely that the diesel equipment will be put up for sale to other commuter rail agencies. Such agencies currently using older equipment, like Nashville's WeGo Star, and potential commuter rail startups, like the long planned MI Train in Detroit, would be good candidates to buy this equipment.

 

[GDRRiley]

What will happen if Caltrain gets rid of most of their F-40s? If for some reason the Statler's could not power under the wires but F-40s could pull or push them for service. My thought is that there would be a major electrical shortage so the EMUs could not operate normally. If all the F-40s are gone then riders are SOL.

if it was really a long term issue they could borrow some units from Amtrak or a freight railroad.

Now that Caltrain has been electrified, there is now a massive glut in gallery cars and F40PH's. It's likely that the diesel equipment will be put up for sale to other commuter rail agencies. Such agencies currently using older equipment, like Nashville's WeGo Star, and potential commuter rail startups, like the long planned MI Train in Detroit, would be good candidates to buy this equipment.

The F40 are for scrap or T4 rebuild only, the gallery cars though are going to be a big win for someone, now they may not be available till 2029 after metrolink uses them for the 2028 games.

 

[jiml]

Now that Caltrain has been electrified, there is now a massive glut in gallery cars and F40PH's. It's likely that the diesel equipment will be put up for sale to other commuter rail agencies. Such agencies currently using older equipment, like Nashville's WeGo Star, and potential commuter rail startups, like the long planned MI Train in Detroit, would be good candidates to buy this equipment.

I believe California has some rule that diesel locomotives over a certain age can neither be rebuilt nor sold - even outside the state. The only thing that can save them from the scrapper is having the prime mover extracted, destroyed and not replaced if the shell is to be preserved (as in a museum or display). Not sure where the cut-off build date is at the moment but the latest victims are the ex-VIA FPA4s of Napa Wine Train and some tourist railroads. "Apples and oranges" to some extent but not sure the F40s wouldn't be affected.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I believe California has some rule that diesel locomotives over a certain age can neither be rebuilt nor sold - even outside the state. The only thing that can save them from the scrapper is having the prime mover extracted, destroyed and not replaced if the shell is to be preserved (as in a museum or display). Not sure where the cut-off build date is at the moment but the latest victims are the ex-VIA FPA4s of Napa Wine Train and some tourist railroads. "Apples and oranges" to some extent but not sure the F40s wouldn't be affected.

Was just in Napa, and it was sad to see the FPA4s were gone from the Wine Train.

It looks like California regs will eventually force all classic petrolium powered vehicles to only be seen in museums, not out and about as a means of transportation.

 

[UhClem]

Here you go F40PH-2 for sale, gently used: https://www.caltrainstore.com/special-items/p/caltrain-emd-f40ph-2-locomotive-used

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Or BART and Muni.

I think Muni has their own source of hydropower - Hetch Hetchy - which is one reason they retained streetcars and trolley buses.

 

[GDRRiley]

I believe California has some rule that diesel locomotives over a certain age can neither be rebuilt nor sold - even outside the state. The only thing that can save them from the scrapper is having the prime mover extracted, destroyed and not replaced if the shell is to be preserved (as in a museum or display). Not sure where the cut-off build date is at the moment but the latest victims are the ex-VIA FPA4s of Napa Wine Train and some tourist railroads. "Apples and oranges" to some extent but not sure the F40s wouldn't be affected.

Nope its based on if you get grant money from Air Quality districts. The CARB rule that would create a 23 year since last rebuild clause hasn't gone into affect and is being challenged.
You don't have to take it but they'll cover upto 80% of the cost of a new locomotive for a public agency. They could also be rebuilt at a similar match but must meet T4 now. For a private railroad that comes down to whats being replaced and class 1 vs 2/3

 

[Cal]

if it was really a long term issue they could borrow some units from Amtrak or a freight railroad.

I don't think Amtrak has any extra power lying around (and won't for a while).

 

[jiml]

Nope its based on if you get grant money from Air Quality districts. The CARB rule that would create a 23 year since last rebuild clause hasn't gone into affect and is being challenged.
You don't have to take it but they'll cover upto 80% of the cost of a new locomotive for a public agency. They could also be rebuilt at a similar match but must meet T4 now. For a private railroad that comes down to whats being replaced and class 1 vs 2/3

Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that even the Trains coverage of this was somewhat confusing and subsequent discussion has followed a similar path. Who wouldn't want a new locomotive for a 20% investment, no matter how attached your company/agency was to an existing model?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Who wouldn't want a new locomotive for a 20% investment, no matter how attached your company/agency was to an existing model?

I'd love to patronize an expensive wine train that operates historic locomotives I cannot find elsewhere and I don't even drink wine. But anticipating and recognizing unique situations and letting relatively tiny operators do something a huge utilitarian transit agency cannot do is a step too far for some reason.

 

[UhClem]

Rode the ACE Express from Manteca to San Jose this morning. Caught a new Caltrain EMU to SF. Go electric!

 

[GDRRiley]

I don't think Amtrak has any extra power lying around (and won't for a while).

P42

Rode the ACE Express from Manteca to San Jose this morning. Caught a new Caltrain EMU to SF. Go electric!

I've seen about 1 a day during my transfer at palo alto. they really aren't running much in the mix right now and it seems like they are moving them between different trains constantly

 

[George Harris]

I don't think any electrified railroad in the world maintains an alternate non-electric fleet to fall back on to provide full service should power supply fail. They spend all their effort in making the power supply resilient. I suspect Caltrain will follow the normal best practice in this matter.

I think you are giving Caltrain too much credit in assuming, "I suspect Caltrain will follow the normal best practice in this matter."

 

[Cal]

P42

Many have been retired the past few years and are continuing to be retired. The one's that aren't suffer from mechanical issues frequently. So no, not really.

 

[UhClem]

P42


I've seen about 1 a day during my transfer at palo alto. they really aren't running much in the mix right now and it seems like they are moving them between different trains constantly

They are receiving new equipment and adding them as they can. There's a discord server where they post the current known schedules.

 

[Paniolo Man]

There's at least one EMU set at the factory in SLC almost ready to head west, I suspect another is close behind since they send them in pairs. The wreck-damaged 311/312 has been getting work done as well.

 

[GDRRiley]

There's at least one EMU set at the factory in SLC almost ready to head west, I suspect another is close behind since they send them in pairs. The wreck-damaged 311/312 has been getting work done as well.

Caltrian expects 16 total sets to be delivered by the end of next week.
311/312 isn't expected to be back till early 2025

 

[west point]

Caltrain rider increase 100,000 riders in Oct over 2023. As well 17% increase over August when number of fall riders usually fall. These results should cause all regular commuter services to re examine electrification considerations. One thing important about Caltrain. Its ROW is very well suited for quick acceleration to 80 MPH where more legacy agencies do not have that kind of allowable high max speeds.

Maybe we need a thread discussing where commuter routes would have results such as Caltrain.

https://www.caltrain.com/news/first-month-electrified-caltrain-service-sees-750000-riders.

 

[railiner]

Maybe we need a thread discussing where commuter routes would have results such as Caltrain.

I’d nominate my local RR…Tri-Rail…