Ideas for future trains between Florida and Midwest

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FRA estimates 36 hours for Chicago/Nashville/Atlanta/Miami service (43mph average over the 1,531 mile route). The new Floridian is 46 hours 29 minutes (49mph average over 2,302 mile route).
So, a "direct" routing would save about 10 1/2 hours.
And track improvements, etc. could get that down to below 30 hours?
 
And track improvements, etc. could get that down to below 30 hours?
The 36 hours is after $3 Billion worth of track and infrastructure improvements. Of course another $3 Billion would get you several more hours possibly. And another $6 Billion would get you even more hours of reduction.
 
NS would demand capacity increases, especially between Chattanooga and Atlanta, to allow the train at all. That is going to eat a quite a bit of that $3B right there with no speed increases at all.

As for me, I consider the Cap/Star "Floridian" a completely separate issue from a direct Chicago-Florida train through Tennessee and Georgia. One is reality, the other is almost entirely speculative despite its presence as a recommended route in the FRA study. One is happening November 10th. The other is at least 15 to 20 years away, if it happens at all. To me, discussion of a direct train belongs as speculation on the Amtrak Futures board.
 
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FRA estimates 36 hours for Chicago/Nashville/Atlanta/Miami service (43mph average over the 1,531 mile route). The new Floridian is 46 hours 29 minutes (49mph average over 2,302 mile route).
So, a "direct" routing would save about 10 1/2 hours.
Another alternative might be via the City of New Orleans, and a restored Sunset-East.
Based on 1994 schedules, it would take about 41 or 42 hours, Chicago to Miami via New Orleans…
 
The 36 hours is after $3 Billion worth of track and infrastructure improvements.
So sad. I’m sure everyone is tired of hearing about the streamliner era of the 50’s, 60’s but.. The Dixieland left Chicago at 9:10am and arrived at Miami 4:55pm next afternoon, about 31 hours.

It served the same major cities except Louisville and did use the FEC in FL. That was in the days before welded rail and modern signaling and much of the proposed route is on already well maintained railroad.

Why is it so hard, and expensive, to make improvements in any type of service. We can all probably make a long list of reasons but it is still discouraging.
 
So sad. I’m sure everyone is tired of hearing about the streamliner era of the 50’s, 60’s but.. The Dixieland left Chicago at 9:10am and arrived at Miami 4:55pm next afternoon, about 31 hours.

It served the same major cities except Louisville and did use the FEC in FL. That was in the days before welded rail and modern signaling and much of the proposed route is on already well maintained railroad.

Why is it so hard, and expensive, to make improvements in any type of service. We can all probably make a long list of reasons but it is still discouraging.
Top speeds in the 50s and 60s were 79 most places, the same as now. Welded rail is no faster than well maintained stick rail. CTC and computerized track warrants do not inherently mean faster speeds than ABS and train orders.

The difference is railroad operating practice and philosophy, not infrastructure. Timetable and train order dispatching is long gone. Crack passenger trains were First Class, superior to everything except other First Class trains traveling in the superior direction. This could he overriden by train order but superiority seldom was. Railroads ran fast freights as well as passenger trains. They were generally more fluid, much more than under PSR.

Today the railroads are out of the rapid delivery business and have been for years. If you something there fast, you ship it by truck. Railroads now are oriented towards bulk commodities and TOFC/COFC. And only TOFC/COFC is anything resembling time critical.

The current "modern" infrastructure is deployed with a goal of cost containment, not speed. Welded rail reduces maintainence costs. It actually slows things down in temperature extremes, stick rail is more forgiving of wide temperature swings. PSR reduces crew starts and therefore labor costs and if it ties up the railroad, so be it. Grain doesn't care. While railroads have gotten spanked for egregious service failures, like the STB Directed Service Order to UP for Foster Farms, it hasn't changed much.

Finally, remember that Amtrak (or someone other than the railroad) is on the hook for avoidable costs for access. If capacity needs to be expanded in order to provide service, that's an "avoidable cost" and someone other than the railroad has to pay for it. That's the reason the Sunset no longer serves Phoenix, and why the Point Defiance Bypass was built. When Amtrak was formed, there was lots of excess capacity. Now, with loss of entire lines and single tracking, many freight corridors are at or near saturation.
 
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36 hours is significantly better than 47, but is low 30s significantly better than 36? And I could see a future routing being as much for serving to and from Atlanta as the end points or anywhere near them. Atlanta has grown a great deal in the last 60 years, has it not? I think my doable if not quite ideal Amtrak of 2050 would have Chicago to Miami via Atlanta as a one train ride and alternate routes to Fla from the Midwest as 2 or 3 trains. But maybe not, I think I need to look at the FRA and NARP maps again with the assumption that most of that could happen but probably not all of it will. I'd be thrilled to be able to do the west coast to Fla in two rides instead of three, even if slowly. But that may be because I missed a connection in DC on the way home last time. Amtrak took good care of me, but still. I'm definitely in the higher speeds would be nice, but genuine high speed isn't necessary, and I'd rather see those $ spent on more and more reliable service camp.
 
The difference is railroad operating practice and philosophy, not infrastructure.
Good points although, as you mention, the railroads will demand track improvements due to self inflicted capacity constraints. And there is also the cost of building new stations. In most of the major cities the grand old ones have been repurposed into hotels or convention centers (although JAX could possibly revert to its original purpose). And then there is equipment. But $36 billion still seems extravagant.
 
Good points although, as you mention, the railroads will demand track improvements due to self inflicted capacity constraints. And there is also the cost of building new stations. In most of the major cities the grand old ones have been repurposed into hotels or convention centers (although JAX could possibly revert to its original purpose). And then there is equipment. But $36 billion still seems extravagant.
The 36 hours is after $3 Billion worth of track and infrastructure improvements.
$36 Billion world be excessive but it appears it isn't $36 Billion, but $3 Billion and a 36 hour schedule.

$3 Billion is a lot, but does not seem outlandish for new stations, including replacing Peachtree in Atlanta, and possibly some miles of second or third main track, particularly Chattanooga-Atlanta, and/or additional sidings.

That railroads downsized to save on maintenance and still serve their own perceived needs does not change the fact that putting some of that back to accommodate new passenger service is an otherwise avoidable cost. That railroads play games with this to get infrastructure improvements on someone else's dime is an unfortunate reality sometimes. UP seems particularly guilty of this. In one memorable example, they required ODOT to pay for a CTC siding in Oregon City for Cascades service. When completed they promptly stuffed it with storage cars. On the other hand, at least some railroads seem perfectly willing to invest in infrastructure when needed to increase their own capacity. BNSF added many miles of second main track at the cost of several billion to the ex-GN High Line to accommodate the increase in traffic generated by the Bakken oil boom. That capacity increase dramatically improved the Empire Builder's timekeeping, which had been badly impacted by the increased freight traffic. Improving the Builder's timekeeping was not BNSF's goal, to keep their railroad moving was and the Builder benefited.
 
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$3 Billion is a lot, but does not seem outlandish for new stations, including replacing Peachtree in Atlanta, and possibly some miles of second or third main track, particularly Chattanooga-Atlanta, and/or additional sidings.
$3 Billion sounds like a lot but when you consider what gets routinely spent on highway improvements in this country, where they might drop that much just rebuilding one freeway interchange, it really isn't that outlandish.
 
$3 Billion sounds like a lot but when you consider what gets routinely spent on highway improvements in this country, where they might drop that much just rebuilding one freeway interchange, it really isn't that outlandish.
Fact check needed.

While a single interchange can get expensive, I have yet to hear of a 3 billion cost factor for a interchange.

I do support this type of investment in our railways. I do get indigestion when we are shoveling money and have no rights of ownership.

We need more capacity between these points, so we are going to build a second tracks and operator them together, but own them separately. This way push comes to shove the government can at least run 24 trains a day. CSX is quite good demand upgrade and then use them as parking spots. Maintain ownership will address this.
 
Fact check needed.

While a single interchange can get expensive, I have yet to hear of a 3 billion cost factor for a interchange.
$435 million for a single, relatively little used interchange in a city of under 90,000--Duluth, MN! Crazy money even then, but no $3 billion! Still is more money than the state of MN has ever invested into passenger rail, ha. Even if the Northern Lights Express to Duluth happens, they've allocated under $200 million so far to that project, and in the $10s of millions total for the Borealis and all the study work.
 
Fact check needed.

While a single interchange can get expensive, I have yet to hear of a 3 billion cost factor for a interchange
Admittedly I was using a bit of hyperbole here, but I think you get the point, that vast sums of money get routinely shoveled out for highway projects without anyone questioning it, whereas relatively smaller amounts spent on rail get scrutinized.
 
Admittedly I was using a bit of hyperbole here, but I think you get the point, that vast sums of money get routinely shoveled out for highway projects without anyone questioning it, whereas relatively smaller amounts spent on rail get scrutinized.
One story had it at $510m for the Duluth interchange. For some context, the county is 201K, and metro Duluth including the Wisconsin side is 327K. That's not quite in top 100 in the US, but it's the second largest metro MN. And the city is built below a cliff in the Iron Range.

A good part of the project is for trucks going to the port. The volume at the port has stagnated, due to decreases in coal and grain, with ore still the bulk :) of it. The powers that be are investing in container facilities. While this might explain some things, it's still clear MN has so far only added one single frequency train; its cost saving is apparently why that train runs with Horizon cars; and getting back a minimal train to Duluth will take a while. Choices. It's hard to emphasize that frequency works, in those circumstances. "An empty highway is seen as a sign of success, an empty train as one of failure."

Now, expensive interchanges. I did find one at $900m, the NJ side of Philly. And it's had other problems.

One mega project in cost is the Tacoma HOV lanes, $1.8b. Fully separated HOV lanes look a lot like rail corridors, and must cost more. They are safer than 10-lane freeways, but not as safe as trains.

I too was surprised at the $3b number for setting up Amtrak between Chicago and Florida via Atlanta. It seemed low. Brightline Florida cost several billion, how much ever went to tracks and bridges, and two tunnels under a highway, and rebuilding the highway's ramps. (The new corridor part was only 20 miles of the project.) In Virginia the NER is a big success, but the payouts to NS and CSX have been in nine figures several times, and the distances are not large. There was almost no choice as I-95 is about maxxed out in width, including separated lanes. (To make passenger volume, rail in VA is oriented to the NEC, as it is in NC for travel outside the state, in the state-supported category. That's to make volume, a different goal would be to make network. Another would be to serve more small places. Bring back flag stops!)

As the Transit Costs Project said, English-speaking places consistently come in high, including Hong Kong and Singapore. And for some reason, the Netherlands. Back around 1960 in the U.S. there was hue and cry over the "million-dollar-a-mile" cost the interstate highway system had risen to. At the time, the federal gasoline tax at the pump was about 50%. It's now 18.4 cents. Perhaps there was some postwar pride mixed with bemusement at not being able to control costs.

Edit: 9 figures, not 6 to upgrade tracks
 
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Admittedly I was using a bit of hyperbole here, but I think you get the point, that vast sums of money get routinely shoveled out for highway projects without anyone questioning it, whereas relatively smaller amounts spent on rail get scrutinized.
I agree, but the amount of traffic even on lightly used interchanges is probably vastly greater than what passenger trains would bring…🤷‍♂️
 
NS would demand capacity increases, especially between Chattanooga and Atlanta, to allow the train at all. That is going to eat a quite a bit of that $3B right there with no speed increases at all.
Sure you don't mean CSX? True. both CSX and NS have lines between Chattanooga and Atlanta, but if you are coming from Nashville, you will be on CSX. Also, the CSX line is both shorter and faster than the NS route, though both are far from I-75 in both length and reasonable time. This segment is a small example of many of the issues with a direct Chicago to Florida train. You are going cross grain to the Appalachian chain, so the rail lines will be longer and curvier. The CSX line between Atlanta and Chattanooga was built in about 1850 as the Western and Atlantic, and so far as I know this segment is still owned by the state of Georgia. (It was the route of the Andrews Rail in the War Between the States, otherwise known as the Great Locomotive Chase. The L&N ran a memorial of that even on its centennial with the restored 4-4-0 General pulling one late 1800's coach. The engine ran as its original steamer, but modified to burn diesel fuel instead of wood.) The NS line was built by the Southern sometime between the end of the war and around 1900.

The comparative data:
I-75: Per Google maps, 119 miles, drive time just under 2 hours.
CSX: 133.7 miles, best run time ever, 3 hours 0 minutes. Last train prior to Amtrak, about 3 hours 30 minutes
NS: 152.7 miles, best run time, 4 hours, which was the scheduled time up to the end of passenger service.

Since the late 50's to mid 60's the maximum superelevation on curves has been reduced from 6 to 4 inches on most lines, which resulted in reduced passenger train speeds on all such curves, so it is highly unlikely that the previous fastest times could be met, much less improved upon. This would likely be more significant on the CSX route, as a high percentage of the route's speed is controlled by allowable curve speed.

Thanks to Chattanooga's location in the Tennessee River valley, trains going southeast to Atlanta leave town aimed northeast. To do otherwise would entail at least one long tunnel and possible some significant earthwork. Were this to be done, the distance between Chattanooga and Dalton, the next significant town to the south and where both railroads and I-75 are proximate, could match or even be slightly less than the I-75 distance of 31 miles. Instead, the distances are 37.8 miles on CSX and 40.1 miles on NS. The remainder of the longer NS route is due to its swinging to the west to pass through Rome GA, instead of the more direct CSX route through Cartersville. Terrain has an even more pronounced effect on time and distance to Nashville, as the route out of Chattanooga goes in a wests-south-west direction for 38.6 miles to Stevenson AL before turning north toward Nashville. More on that later.
 
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OK. CSX then. As a West Coast resident I am much less familiar with the lines in the east after merger consolidations than I am with the heritage lines acquired by BNSF and UP. I do know that the direct Chattanooga-Atlanta direct line hosts heavy traffic and that the host RRs are resistant to adding passenger trains to the mix.
 
IMO there may be more to running CHI <> ATL. Train counts, length of sidings, grades. It may be that a passenger train might do better switching RRs at Dalton. Who knows?. The best result might be having crews able to use either RR?
Intermediate stations are also a thought. Dalton of course on both RRs. Rome & Austell on NS. Cartersville and Marietta on CSX.
 
OK. CSX then. As a West Coast resident I am much less familiar with the lines in the east after merger consolidations than I am with the heritage lines acquired by BNSF and UP. I do know that the direct Chattanooga-Atlanta direct line hosts heavy traffic and that the host RRs are resistant to adding passenger trains to the mix.
No problem. my home turf. Both these more or less parallel lines are fairly heavily used. It actually would not have surprised me if someone had proposed using the NS Chatty to Atl. I could see some politician in Rome GA saying, hey, we need to train to come through here. Oh, by the way, my wife's second cousin's next door neighbor runs a consulting business, why don't we give him about $50,000 to study this.
 
One story had it at $510m for the Duluth interchange. For some context, the county is 201K, and metro Duluth including the Wisconsin side is 327K. That's not quite in top 100 in the US, but it's the second largest metro MN. And the city is built below a cliff in the Iron Range.

A good part of the project is for trucks going to the port. The volume at the port has stagnated, due to decreases in coal and grain, with ore still the bulk :) of it. The powers that be are investing in container facilities. While this might explain some things, it's still clear MN has so far only added one single frequency train; its cost saving is apparently why that train runs with Horizon cars; and getting back a minimal train to Duluth will take a while. Choices. It's hard to emphasize that frequency works, in those circumstances. "An empty highway is seen as a sign of success, an empty train as one of failure."

Now, expensive interchanges. I did find one at $900m, the NJ side of Philly. And it's had other problems.

One mega project in cost is the Tacoma HOV lanes, $1.8b. Fully separated HOV lanes look a lot like rail corridors, and must cost more. They are safer than 10-lane freeways, but not as safe as trains.

I too was surprised at the $3b number for setting up Amtrak between Chicago and Florida via Atlanta. It seemed low. Brightline Florida cost several billion, how much ever went to tracks and bridges, and two tunnels under a highway, and rebuilding the highway's ramps. (The new corridor part was only 20 miles of the project.) In Virginia the NER is a big success, but the payouts to NS and CSX have been in nine figures several times, and the distances are not large. There was almost no choice as I-95 is about maxxed out in width, including separated lanes. (To make passenger volume, rail in VA is oriented to the NEC, as it is in NC for travel outside the state, in the state-supported category. That's to make volume, a different goal would be to make network. Another would be to serve more small places. Bring back flag stops!)

As the Transit Costs Project said, English-speaking places consistently come in high, including Hong Kong and Singapore. And for some reason, the Netherlands. Back around 1960 in the U.S. there was hue and cry over the "million-dollar-a-mile" cost the interstate highway system had risen to. At the time, the federal gasoline tax at the pump was about 50%. It's now 18.4 cents. Perhaps there was some postwar pride mixed with bemusement at not being able to control costs.

Edit: 9 figures, not 6 to upgrade tracks
Regarding the Tacoma I-5 work, all that cost and 20 years of construction have done little to reduce the miles of congestion we get at certain times of day.
 
MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please return the discussion in this thread to the speculations about future CHI - Florida trains, and refrain from discussing highway funding and construction. Any further posts on highway funding and construction in this thread will be removed as off topic.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.
 
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