Non-existent trackage on NARP/RPA's Vision Map?

When I looked at the Vision map from NARP/RPA containing their proposed expansion routes and compared them to existing trackage from Google Maps and/or state track maps, it seems to me that one particular segment in the map - the route from Tampa south to Naples via St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Punta Gorda, and Ft. Myers - apparently no longer exists in its entirety (in other words, some of this trackage appears to have been pulled at certain points). Is it really true that any hypothetical restoration of passenger rail service from Tampa south to Ft. Myers would require re-laying some tracks previously pulled?

TML said:

When I looked at the Vision map from NARP/RPA containing their proposed expansion routes and compared them to existing trackage from Google Maps and/or state track maps, it seems to me that one particular segment in the map - the route from Tampa south to Naples via St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Punta Gorda, and Ft. Myers - apparently no longer exists in its entirety (in other words, some of this trackage appears to have been pulled at certain points). Is it really true that any hypothetical restoration of passenger rail service from Tampa south to Ft. Myers would require re-laying some tracks previously pulled?

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I think a lot of the proposed routes would require many miles of track to be replaced or upgraded to permit reasonable passenger speeds. 25 mph just won't cut it, even if non-perishable freight doesn't mind. As long as the ROW is intact and bridges, causeways, cuts and tunnels haven't been destroyed, replacing the track is the "easy" part. If the ROW has been sold or encroached on, then lawyers get involved and the cost goes way up!

I have no idea what the particular conditions are in Florida. I did see a You-Tube video a few months ago about a couple of guys with a go-cart mounted on train wheels who were following the abandoned line west from Phoenix. Some of it looked completely intact, but there were places where it was partially washed out and a long collapsed trestle across a dry sandy area that passes for a river in that region. They stopped the lawnmower engine that was driving it, hopped off, and carried it to the next good section of track. Finally, they reached a place where one rail seemed okay, but the other was arching about 5 feet into the air and pointing in a crazy direction. Then it got worse. I think this is the track they would need to restore to get the Sunset Limited back into Phoenix.

I expect this sort of thing is or should be accounted for in the NARP/RPA proposals

I am not familiar with the location. But if this is the type of trackage used to serve maybe a local industrial spur or two with rickety track and and crazy low speed restrictions, they would probably be looking into relaying new track anyway before passenger service can commence. So it wouldn't really make much of a difference is some bits are missing, as long as no land has been disposed off or given to other uses.

From looking at the OpenRailwayMap it looks like much of the route has been built upon south of Bonita Springs including housing developments and an airport. They may have to find a new route into Naples.

Also, I don't see how a route from Tampa to Naples could go through St. Petersburg given that it is on a peninsula on the other side of the bay.

TML said:

When I looked at the Vision map from NARP/RPA containing their proposed expansion routes and compared them to existing trackage from Google Maps and/or state track maps, it seems to me that one particular segment in the map - the route from Tampa south to Naples via St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Punta Gorda, and Ft. Myers - apparently no longer exists in its entirety (in other words, some of this trackage appears to have been pulled at certain points). Is it really true that any hypothetical restoration of passenger rail service from Tampa south to Ft. Myers would require re-laying some tracks previously pulled?

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You are correct. The SAL line from Bradenton to Arcadia was abandoned as well as the ACL from East Sarasota to south fork was also abandoned. Fort Meyers to Naples by SAL was abandoned with ACL still to somewhere north of Naples. Now only present intact rail is CSX from just west of Lakeland south thru the Bone valley mines to Arcadia. Then Seminole Gulf RR from Arcadia on south to Ft. Meyers. Not sure if SGRR toward Naples,

Source SPV southeast 2006 edition. So, these might not all be correct.
With the upcoming hurricane Milton nothing may be left?

This is far from the only imaginary line on these maps. One in my neck of the woods that comes to mind is a Nashville to Memphis line. The currently available track is significantly longer than the I-40 route and misses the only intermediate city of any size, Jackson TN. There was a direct route in the past, but it was so slow that the last "fast" train was down to one coach and disappeared before any of the Interstate highway was opened. Then, the Jackson to Memphis segment of that route was abandoned in 1967, and much of it has been built over since. I suspect there are others. A good bit of this map is called thinking with the wishbone, not the headbone.

Those two routes did not even survive Meeting 2 in July 2023. (The two routes being Nashville-Memphis and Tampa-Naples.) Here is Meeting 4, June 2024:



https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/

The first meeting was the vision stuff, drawing lines on maps. Annoying as it was. You can read who participated, quite a mix. Meeting 4 has budget numbers for the above map, and those have been debated on another thread.

The discussion of the two routes here is still super interesting, because it's clear the highway system is hard to sustain as the economy grows. Putative AI and crypto-derived money meanwhile are using crazy amounts of power. And we thought space travel would use a lot. (Rail is still doing better than in the 1980's, with many new systems in metro areas since then, and even state-supported rail between Texas and Oklahoma, Louisiana and Mississippi - with Alabama playing the role of New Hampshire.)

George Harris said:

This is far from the only imaginary line on these maps. One in my neck of the woods that comes to mind is a Nashville to Memphis line. The currently available track is significantly longer than the I-40 route and misses the only intermediate city of any size, Jackson TN. There was a direct route in the past, but it was so slow that the last "fast" train was down to one coach and disappeared before any of the Interstate highway was opened. Then, the Jackson to Memphis segment of that route was abandoned in 1967, and much of it has been built over since. I suspect there are others. A good bit of this map is called thinking with the wishbone, not the headbone.

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Yes there are several instances of this on this map, for example the Boston to Montreal segment Concord NH to White River Jct. that had track removed decades ago. Also the "Phoebe Snow" route New York to Buffalo via Scranton and Binghamton which would require restoring the cutoff track through NJ that is also long gone although I believe the right of way still exists.

There has been discussion here before about the specific track raised in the OP. This whole area is dotted by cities and towns that have MLB Spring Training venues, so I've had the opportunity to visit many of the sites named. There is a break in the main track in downtown St. Pete, where it has been paved over. Reconstruction looks unlikely at that spot, although segments exist south of there - including near Ft. Myers (Seminole Gulf), which hosted a dinner train prior to the pandemic.

It's a diagram, not a specific track map (of course, since it's showing a route to Dubuque through "Rutherford" Illinois*, it does make one wonder....).


*There IS a Rutherford, Illinois, but it is much further south in Champaign County (SE of Urbana) but it does have two RR's that cross there, if nothing else.

TML said:

When I looked at the Vision map from NARP/RPA containing their proposed expansion routes and compared them to existing trackage from Google Maps and/or state track maps, it seems to me that one particular segment in the map - the route from Tampa south to Naples via St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Punta Gorda, and Ft. Myers - apparently no longer exists in its entirety (in other words, some of this trackage appears to have been pulled at certain points). Is it really true that any hypothetical restoration of passenger rail service from Tampa south to Ft. Myers would require re-laying some tracks previously pulled?

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There has never been a direct rail connection from St. Pete to Sarasota, and notwithstanding all the dreaming I doubt anyone will build a rail bridge from St. Pete to Port Manatee across Tampa Bay. So there is good reason that they dropped that dream.

west point said:

You are correct. The SAL line from Bradenton to Arcadia was abandoned as well as the ACL from East Sarasota to south fork was also abandoned. Fort Meyers to Naples by SAL was abandoned with ACL still to somewhere north of Naples. Now only present intact rail is CSX from just west of Lakeland south thru the Bone valley mines to Arcadia. Then Seminole Gulf RR from Arcadia on south to Ft. Meyers. Not sure if SGRR toward Naples,

Source SPV southeast 2006 edition. So, these might not all be correct.
With the upcoming hurricane Milton nothing may be left?

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Seminole Gulf Railway (SGLR) does have low grade operable line upto Vanderbilt Beach just short of Naples, though freight haulage is very sparse to non-existent south of Fort Myers apparently

If service is set up along the West Coast South of Tampa, it will indeed be taking off from the current Amtrak route at CP Winston and then proceed to Arcadia via Bradley on CSXT. Then it will go on SGLR to Fort Myers.

There could be a separate service to Sarasota taking off from today's Amtrak route to Tampa at Ucela Yard. It could run all the way to Venice past Sarasota. This potential Sarasota - Venice Line would serve very significant population centers so could be operated as a Suburban Line from Tampa Union Station with hourly service and probably prove to be very useful.

The other potential Suburban Line is TUS to St. Pete. This would not be for people wanting to travel from St. Pete to TUS primarily since it will be a slow circuitous route. But it would be for local transport on its route. It could be served better by more frequent than hourly service, using DLRT.

The Fort Myers Line goes through a lot of low population density area with Fort Myers/Port Charlotte as the only major population center. In the best of dreams a new line along I-75 from Venice to Fort Myers or at least Port Charlotte could be contemplated. That would potentially be a way to get a Tampa - Sarasota - Venice - Port Charlotte - Fort Myers service. But no luck for St. Pete.

JamesWhitcombRiley said:

Those two routes did not even survive Meeting 2 in July 2023. (The two routes being Nashville-Memphis and Tampa-Naples.) Here is Meeting 4, June 2024:

View attachment 38010

https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/

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That does indeed look like drawing lines on a map. Many trains that are much more obvious than these have been pending in the works for far too long, making one wonder where the momentum is going to come from to get all this done within our lifetimes.

There are also some question marks. For example would they duplicate Brightline West been LA and Las Vegas, or somehow integrate it. Same for Brightline Florida.

Then on the other hand I guess they are aiming for the sky, but would be more than happy if a small fraction of this gets realized.

cirdan said:

There are also some question marks. For example would they duplicate Brightline West been LA and Las Vegas, or somehow integrate it. Same for Brightline Florida.

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Just use Airo trains with locos on both ends with trackage rights on Brightline!.

west point said:

Just use Airo trains with locos on both ends with trackage rights on Brightline!.

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What trackage rights? New ones to be negotiated?

jis said:

What trackage rights? New ones to be negotiated?

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Yes!