Empire Builder discussion 2023 Q4 - 2024

zephyr17 said:

Not sure, but they gotta get home as well. They can't work back on another train. 8(31)'s crew will turn on 7(3).

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And Amtrak would have to pay 2 crews to deadhead home…more likely cheaper to fly them home…

The LCA seemed stressed out, others were performing well enough I didn't notice.

Steve's Wanderlust said:

The LCA seemed stressed out, others were performing well enough I didn't notice.

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If you mean the cafe LSA, that position is on 27/28 and so is normally based out of Chicago, not Portland. Portland does not have an OBS crew base.

An Empire Builder bustitution is apparently in place between Shelby and Whitefish due to a derailment near Essex:

https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2024/oct/13/freight-train-derails-on-border-of-glacier-park/

How much corn spilled ? Bears have been rumored to feast on derailed, fermented, spilled corn, get drunk, and act more unpredictably than normal.

Amtrak25 said:

How much corn spilled ? Bears have been rumored to feast on derailed, fermented, spilled corn, get drunk, and act more unpredictably than normal.

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This Montana Free Press article characterizes it as "hundreds of tons," which is believable (for a fairly small value of 'several' like 2 or 3) if a number of loaded hoppers overturned.

Bears drunk on fermented corn is more than just a rumor, and is a perennial point of contention between BN(SF), Montana Fish and Game, and the Park Service. The railroad is required to clean up the grain now, but TBA how good of a job they do.

Siegmund said:

Bears drunk on fermented corn is more than just a rumor, and is a perennial point of contention between BN(SF), Montana Fish and Game, and the Park Service. The railroad is required to clean up the grain now, but TBA how good of a job they do.

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A requirement driven in no small part from BNSF trains smacking into wasted bears foraging for their favorite intoxicant on the ROW.

Positive food / alcohol reinforcement will encourage them to hang out by RR tracks. Bears are not stupid and reason by association.

We got to witness bears at work at the site of a derailment on Ed Ellis' Rio Grande Scenic RR aka San Luis and Rio Grande in 2007. What a shame it sucummed to poor managaement as the train made the very scenic trip from Alamosa to La Veta, CO.

Ah, yes; the bustitution. We were told through a very vague announcement, which many aboard did not understand, that there had been a freight train derailment blocking the track ahead and that the east and westbound trains would be both turned around and their respective passengers would be bussed between the two trains. This was about noon. The derailment actually occurred at 5:42am according to published news reports. Later we were told that the bus ride would begin at about 6pm, with no arrival time offered, and that dinner service for that evening had been flatly cancelled. We were told that Subway sandwiches would be provided--in lieu of a three course dinner in the dining car--and that water and potato chips would be waiting for us on the bus. Upon disembarkation in Shelby, Montana, I was tossed a stale 6-inch turkey sub, informed that there was no water and no chips available, and told to separate from anything I didn't wish to carry on my lap and board a waiting school bus. That is correct; a school bus--no seat belts; sticky, hard, cramped seats that are meant to be occupied by children for minutes, not adults for 4 hours; no water, no palatable food; driven at breakneck speed over mountain grades in the dark. We arrived at Whitefish at about 10pm, jostled to be reunited with our luggage which had followed by Uhaul, struggled with it onto the now eastbound train, and got underway toward Seattle at 11:07pm. By this time and possibly earlier, according to published reports, the blockage had been cleared and the track reopened.

As Amtrak does not own, nor control, nor maintain, nor govern the track upon which its trains operate, thereby leaving its passengers to suffer the consequences of cost-based decisions made by freight operations, decisions which shockingly often lead to train derailment, I hereby call for the Federal agencies that provide the funding for Amtrak to re-categorize its operations as a form of gaming--Vegas on rails, if you will. Nothin’ but a crap shoot, and the losses not even tax deductible.

Given the fact this happened literally in God's Country, I don't know what they could have done better, except hold the trains for what they figured at the time would be a unpredictably long delay, though they could have ordered ahead some real food at Cut Bank or East Glacier, assuming more than half the town is not shut down for the winter. There are no fleets of Coach/Cruiser buses to charter within hundres of miles.

For the non-booster readers of this forum who are considering a sleeper accommodation, I would encourage you to experience it for yourself and as quickly as it can be arranged. Given the coming end of the revenge travel surge; given the coming end of the physical ability of the Baby Boomers to stagger through independent travel; given the dirty, broken cabins, the thinly veiled hostility of the crew, the unprofessional, almost teutonic public demeanor of the self-important adolescents running the trains ("You Will line up and wait quietly outside the dining car," repeatedly. "You Will Not leave the train at any stop for any duration unless told to do so," repeatedly. "You Will Not leave your cabin or seat in the last 30 minutes of the journey," repeatedly); given the jittering, rocking, rolling, thumping, clunking, sleepless ride on rail beds that are obviously maintained to the minimum freight level; given Amtrak management's willingness to force its passengers onto un-safe alternate transportation to maintain its schedule and budget; given all this and more it is my conviction that sleeper train passage will soon disappear from the American experience. And good riddance, as this rolling boondoggle is costing the American taxpayer billions in subsidies yearly.

My full review will appear elsewhere on the internet and hopefully, in due course, in the "Congressional Record."

In other news, I’m looking forward to my upcoming round trip, end-to-end, on the Empire Builder. To each his own.

Siegmund said:

...
Bears drunk on fermented corn is more than just a rumor, and is a perennial point of contention between BN(SF), Montana Fish and Game, and the Park Service. The railroad is required to clean up the grain now, but TBA how good of a job they do.

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This seems like a Hollywood movie plot can be made of this somehow. Like "Cocaine Bear". That may bring more attention to the problem and possible solutions.

whitepine said:

For the non-booster readers of this forum who are considering a sleeper accommodation, I would encourage you to experience it for yourself and as quickly as it can be arranged. Given the coming end of the revenge travel surge; given the coming end of the physical ability of the Baby Boomers to stagger through independent travel; given the dirty, broken cabins, the thinly veiled hostility of the crew, the unprofessional, almost teutonic public demeanor of the self-important adolescents running the trains ("You Will line up and wait quietly outside the dining car," repeatedly. "You Will Not leave the train at any stop for any duration unless told to do so," repeatedly. "You Will Not leave your cabin or seat in the last 30 minutes of the journey," repeatedly); given the jittering, rocking, rolling, thumping, clunking, sleepless ride on rail beds that are obviously maintained to the minimum freight level; given Amtrak management's willingness to force its passengers onto un-safe alternate transportation to maintain its schedule and budget; given all this and more it is my conviction that sleeper train passage will soon disappear from the American experience. And good riddance, as this rolling boondoggle is costing the American taxpayer billions in subsidies yearly.

My full review will appear elsewhere on the internet and hopefully, in due course, in the "Congressional Record."

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To respond to (most of) your points:

*Hope you're right about the end of the post-pandemic travel surge, would take some pressure off sleeper pricing.

*Some rooms are worn, some aren't. Try a Viewliner II sleeper if you can.

*Haven't run into hostile on-board staff yet. Have run into plenty of friendly staff, and some polite-but-not-really-friendly staff. I don't expect friendly (though I'm glad to get it), I only expect polite and competent. Pullman's long dead, and sleeping-car attendants are not Pullman porters.

*People have been complaining about overbearing train and station staff ("gate dragons") for decades, and Amtrak's ridership is still up. I also give them a little slack when they're dealing with once-daily trains and probably have seen passengers left behind for waiting too long to board, wandering too far during a smoking break, etc.

*You're probably aware, but I'll note that the shitty track isn't owned by Amtrak. The first battle is to get the freight railroads to handle Amtrak trains in a timely manner, and that battle is ongoing.

*Funny, people usually complain when Amtrak doesn't provide alternative transportation. When there's one of these scheduled maintenance shutdowns with bustitution (Boston-Albany, Crescent south of Atlanta), it's not like there's a lot of alternative rail routes or crews cleared to operate on them.

*You went and saved the "best" for last! The government is not subsidizing the long-distance or sleeper trains to the tune of billions annually, not by a long shot. Most of Amtrak's money, its own and the government's, goes not to the sleeper trains but the NEC and other services that run multiple day trains.

John Bredin said:

To respond to (most of) your points:

*Hope you're right about the end of the post-pandemic travel surge, would take some pressure off sleeper pricing.

*Some rooms are worn, some aren't. Try a Viewliner II sleeper if you can.

*Haven't run into hostile on-board staff yet. Have run into plenty of friendly staff, and some polite-but-not-really-friendly staff. I don't expect friendly (though I'm glad to get it), I only expect polite and competent. Pullman's long dead, and sleeping-car attendants are not Pullman porters.

*People have been complaining about overbearing train and station staff ("gate dragons") for decades, and Amtrak's ridership is still up. I also give them a little slack when they're dealing with once-daily trains and probably have seen passengers left behind for waiting too long to board, wandering too far during a smoking break, etc.

*You're probably aware, but I'll note that the shitty track isn't owned by Amtrak. The first battle is to get the freight railroads to handle Amtrak trains in a timely manner, and that battle is ongoing.

*Funny, people usually complain when Amtrak doesn't provide alternative transportation. When there's one of these scheduled maintenance shutdowns with bustitution (Boston-Albany, Crescent south of Atlanta), it's not like there's a lot of alternative rail routes or crews cleared to operate on them.

*You went and saved the "best" for last! The government is not subsidizing the long-distance or sleeper trains to the tune of billions annually, not by a long shot. Most of Amtrak's money, its own and the government's, goes not to the sleeper trains but the NEC and other services that run multiple day trains.

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Well said!

John Bredin said:

To respond to (most of) your points:

*Hope you're right about the end of the post-pandemic travel surge, would take some pressure off sleeper pricing.

*Some rooms are worn, some aren't. Try a Viewliner II sleeper if you can.

*Haven't run into hostile on-board staff yet. Have run into plenty of friendly staff, and some polite-but-not-really-friendly staff. I don't expect friendly (though I'm glad to get it), I only expect polite and competent. Pullman's long dead, and sleeping-car attendants are not Pullman porters.

*People have been complaining about overbearing train and station staff ("gate dragons") for decades, and Amtrak's ridership is still up. I also give them a little slack when they're dealing with once-daily trains and probably have seen passengers left behind for waiting too long to board, wandering too far during a smoking break, etc.

*You're probably aware, but I'll note that the shitty track isn't owned by Amtrak. The first battle is to get the freight railroads to handle Amtrak trains in a timely manner, and that battle is ongoing.

*Funny, people usually complain when Amtrak doesn't provide alternative transportation. When there's one of these scheduled maintenance shutdowns with bustitution (Boston-Albany, Crescent south of Atlanta), it's not like there's a lot of alternative rail routes or crews cleared to operate on them.

*You went and saved the "best" for last! The government is not subsidizing the long-distance or sleeper trains to the tune of billions annually, not by a long shot. Most of Amtrak's money, its own and the government's, goes not to the sleeper trains but the NEC and other services that run multiple day trains.

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Actually, I checked a recent Amtrak financial statement. In March 2022, 1.4 billion for the national network, 870 million for the NEC. December 2022, 1.2 billion for the national network, 1.2 billion for the NEC.

MARC Rider said:

Actually, I checked a recent Amtrak financial statement. In March 2022, 1.4 billion for the national network, 870 million for the NEC. December 2022, 1.2 billion for the national network, 1.2 billion for the NEC.

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It sounds like Amtrak's often-questioned accounting may be changing, as if all that questioning is finally having an effect.

Harmon Shay said:

It sounds like Amtrak's often-questioned accounting may be changing, as if all that questioning is finally having an effect.

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It has always been a pretty even split between the NEC and the National Network ever since Congress demanded that the accounting be kept separate several years ago. Nothing new there and not evidence that mis-charging NEC expenses to National Network trains had stopped in that fact alone. There are instances documented by the RPA since the Congressional mandate has gone into effect.

Amtrak's books are probably still a masterpiece of culinary art.

Why are the figures for revenue passenger miles (RPMs) not given for NEC, LD, & state supported given. That way a better comparison can be made. As well, does the LD RPMs on the NEC go to LD RPMs or to the NEC RPMs?

John Bredin said:

To respond to (most of) your points:

*Hope you're right about the end of the post-pandemic travel surge, would take some pressure off sleeper pricing.

*Some rooms are worn, some aren't. Try a Viewliner II sleeper if you can.

*Haven't run into hostile on-board staff yet. Have run into plenty of friendly staff, and some polite-but-not-really-friendly staff. I don't expect friendly (though I'm glad to get it), I only expect polite and competent. Pullman's long dead, and sleeping-car attendants are not Pullman porters.

*People have been complaining about overbearing train and station staff ("gate dragons") for decades, and Amtrak's ridership is still up. I also give them a little slack when they're dealing with once-daily trains and probably have seen passengers left behind for waiting too long to board, wandering too far during a smoking break, etc.

*You're probably aware, but I'll note that the shitty track isn't owned by Amtrak. The first battle is to get the freight railroads to handle Amtrak trains in a timely manner, and that battle is ongoing.

*Funny, people usually complain when Amtrak doesn't provide alternative transportation. When there's one of these scheduled maintenance shutdowns with bustitution (Boston-Albany, Crescent south of Atlanta), it's not like there's a lot of alternative rail routes or crews cleared to operate on them.

*You went and saved the "best" for last! The government is not subsidizing the long-distance or sleeper trains to the tune of billions annually, not by a long shot. Most of Amtrak's money, its own and the government's, goes not to the sleeper trains but the NEC and other services that run multiple day trains.

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Yep. Amtrak isn't perfect, but even besides a love of trains, there are many reasons why we should want more (and of course better) train service.

Link to a follow-up article on the derailment and the clean-up of the spilled grain:

https://dailyinterlake.com/news/202...r-glacier-national-park-cleaned-up-bnsf-says/