Keystone Corridor discussion

JamesWhitcombRiley · Oct 29, 2024

west point said:
The quicker ROW work can be completed the better for passenger awareness/ Have to wonder if Amtrak did not have enough workers to work at least 2 shifts rehabbing the Keystone?

Now for freights soome time has to be allowed for freight service to run any work zone at night.

I don't know about this area, but I've seen other projects agree to daytime work only so neighbors are not bothered.

jis · Oct 29, 2024

west point said:
Evidently this project will be 4 or more years in the construction. Hopefully all the OCS replacements will be constant tension.

The Bryn Mawr substation replacement is an indication of why there are some Keystones being replaced with diesels. Could be that the equipment cannot put out enough power . Also with the upgrades and possible faster trains and more cars the power draw may at times be too much. That might be indicated by voltage drops. Could be regeneration on the Harrisburg line is restricted?

Note the Bryn Mawr substation does not have the 138 kV High voltage power lines so that installation of the 138 line may increase power potential there very much.

Bryn Mawr at present is just a switching station. It is being converted into a substation with 2 138kV to 12kV transformers, one for each single phase circuit.

The reason that the 2x138kV circuit is being installed over the Main Line in that area is to enable Amtrak to abandon a significant amount of off property 138kV lines for which Amtrak is now responsible. This has nothing to do with 60Hz anything.

Have to wonder if all this installation will be compatible for future hypothetical conversion to 60 hZ in the future? Antone with link to detailed contract that can be posted?

It is not since it is not relevant to future hypothetical 60Hz conversion

Amtrak25 said:
What would be the point of that ?

None whatsoever.

west point said:
Planning for conversion should be for SSY and NYP to allow for MNRR EMUs to eventually operate without the need to use 3rd rail. 3rd rail just cannot meet the power needed especially for top speeds and acceleration.

They use third rail only from Gate to Penn Station. What high speed and acceleration are you thinking happens through Harold and F interlocking? And what does the frequency have to do with delivering more power. Are you sure that you are not confusing frequency and voltage? Higher voltage will be able to deliver more power through the same sized cables since it would reduce the current necessary.In any case no one is going to convert LIRR to OHE, so things will continue to be mostly third rail driven through there. Only Amtrak trains will use OHE for the foreseeable future. It would also be cheaper to equip MNRR with 25Hz capable EMUs than to convert the Penn Station complex to 60 Hz any day. So there is no financial justification to go through that exercise while over $60 Billion backlog exists to bring NEC upto SOGR.

A big problem with the PRR 25 hZ was the PRR used as much of the 25 hZ for every electrical need. Example, many years ago when in BAL Penn station I could see the lights dim as trains accelerated northbound out of the station. Now how much off CAT equipment has been converted to 60 I have no idea. Maybe all?

It might be easiest although not the most important would be WAS to Perry. North of Perry the 25 hZ will be needed for the rest of the PRR tracks. Any specific 25 hZ equipment might be transferred there if needed. We have to remember that Amtrak is going to need more power for longer Regionals and more AX-2s.

How is changing frequency going to make it possible to deliver more power? Higher voltage yes. but frequency? Germany runs its entire electric network with its high speed trains and all using 16.67 Hz. The frequency is not the issue. It is the voltage wherein 25kV can deliver more power using the same sized cables than 12kV can. Changing the frequency does nothing for delivering more power.

`One problem with 60 hZ is that Amtrak's 25 hZ uses rotary converters to smooth out the regeneration sloopy sine waves. Now of course there are electronic ways to smooth out but how effective unknown to this poster.

Most of Amtrak's converters are now static converters, not rotary converters. Rotaries have generally been decommissioned and replaced by static converters as they came up for major rebuild.

Amtrak25 · Oct 29, 2024

Between Harold and Penn Station is non-stop, acceleration is a non-issue, at best a 60MPH railroad, LIRR trains can do 80MPH, and they run at least 6 trains per hour all day to Penn Station.

Mailliw · Oct 29, 2024

daybeers said:
Is this currently a common event? Never knew.

The current plan is for the new Venture trainets to be used in Keystone Service hauled by dual-mode engines. That would be a requirement for any Keystone expansion past Harrisburg (or if PennDOT eventually expands Keystone Service from NYC to Scranton via the Lackawanna Cut-Off).

daybeers · Oct 29, 2024

Yes I realize that, the Airos. That's going to be the case on nearly all of the northeast routes, but they'll run in electric mode when under catenary. I asked because it seemed like west point was talking about current operations.