East River Tunnels rehabilitation 2024-2027

Bostontoallpoints said:

What would be the extra costs? Track fees at Grand Central? I think it is still a better alternative than no train.

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Metro North said no - case closed.

The Park avenue viaduct from GCT is being rehabbed. All the steel and iron works is being upgraded with removal of present steel.. That has one of the 4 tracks not in service so now it is 2 tracks one way with counter flow just one track, MTA did not want Amtrak on the one counter flow track so it said NO! This is what happens when too much deferred maintenance happens all at once.

Find it puzzling why Amtrak had to wait so long to rehab the East River bores after "SANDY". It will be no surprise to this poster if bores 3 & 4 end up being done after 1 & 2 are finally finished.

Amtrak waited for MTA to open East Side Access or LIRR would have had to cut rush hour service 20%.

There is no Sandy damage to tunnels 3 and 4.

I have come up with several ways to minimize the impact on the Empire service and posted them here. ESPA has done the same on their Facebook. The fact is Amtrak does not care, nor does the highway obsessed NYS DOT, obviously not wanting to let a crisis go to waste to slash their subsidies. Amtrak knows full when there is poor state oversight of their operations, and will take advantage.

Governor Hochul blew a $15 Billion hole in MTA's capital budget unilaterally killing congestion pricing at the 59th minute of the 11th hour. The Empire Corridor by comparison is irrelevant.

Representative Stefanik, with 6 co-signers, sent a Republican delegation letter insisting Amtrak postpone for 60 days to get past the holidays. It is clear Amtrak is ignoring the 3rd in command at the House of Representatives, playing a juvenile game of chicken.

Absent a new business model to replace DOT as funder with one that would hold Amtrak's arrogant feet to the fire, the future of the Empire Corridor lies in more buses, especially if Tuesdays election goes a certain way. Karma will emerge, and they will deserve it.

Amtrak25 said:

Amtrak waited for MTA to open East Side Access or LIRR would have had to cut rush hour service 20%.

There is no Sandy damage to tunnels 3 and 4.

I have come up with several ways to minimize the impact on the Empire service and posted them here. ESPA has done the same on their Facebook. The fact is Amtrak does not care, nor does the highway obsessed NYS DOT, obviously not wanting to let a crisis go to waste to slash their subsidies. Amtrak knows full when there is poor state oversight of their operations, and will take advantage.

Governor Hochul blew a $15 Billion hole in MTA's capital budget unilaterally killing congestion pricing at the 59th minute of the 11th hour. The Empire Corridor by comparison is irrelevant.

Representative Stefanik, with 6 co-signers, sent a Republican delegation letter insisting Amtrak postpone for 60 days to get past the holidays. It is clear Amtrak is ignoring the 3rd in command at the House of Representatives, playing a juvenile game of chicken.

Absent a new business model to replace DOT as funder with one that would hold Amtrak's arrogant feet to the fire, the future of the Empire Corridor lies in more buses, especially if Tuesdays election goes a certain way. Karma will emerge, and they will deserve it.

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1. What was the full story about the demise of congestion pricing in NYC? I recall that it was quite unpopular in the NY suburbs, and perhpas the state legislature also has something to say about it. It would seem that if there's a budge hole, a small increase in the motor fuel tax would provide at least a short-term fix.

2. I wonder what Rep. Stefanik's position is on congestion pricing and increases in the gas tax. Being that she's from way upstate, she might not care one bit about the wishes of suburban New York voters, but I would suspect that she'd raise bloody hell about any increases in the gas tax. But then, she's a US representative, so maybe she doesn't weigh in on state and local issues, unless she has ambitions for running for statewide office.

3. I also suspect that the Empire Service is pretty low in the priority list of most New York voters. Whatever support for funding rail transportation is probably focused on the NY subway, the Metro-North Harlem and Hudson Lines, and the Long Island RR. The state government merely reflects the attitude of the voters.

Congestion pricing is law and was passed by the legislature in 2019. It's purpose was to remove 20% of vehicles from Manhattan streets as well as raise $15 Billion for MTA capital projects. It does not matter how much the suburban legislators object to it now. The governor is not the Queen - it was an abuse of power. There was obscure pressure from Minority Leader Jeffries who wants to grab a few Republican House seats in the MTA suburbs since NYS Democrats bungled the 2022 election and lost 4 House seats, one even going to George Santos. Upstate contractors are now suffering from shelved contracts., i.e. platform tactile edging is made in Buffalo, Hochul's hometown. Not smart. DOT has nothing to do with MTA.

Rep. Stefanik is from the North Country and couldn't care less about Congestion pricing in Manhattan south of 60th Street. She does care about the Empire Service, particularly the Adirondack. Amtrak's political acumen is about as defective as their train washing.

Increasing the gas tax in a non-issue and not happening.

1/3rd of New York State residents are upstaters and couldn't care less about the MTA. Some upstate legislators have also raised objections to slashing Empire Service with the East River tunnels as a lame excuse. NYS has learned from the 1970's that way to appease upstate politicians on MTA funding is to heavily subsidize the upstate bus system so they all have pretty low base fares.

Please clarify. What is the maximum consist that can operate NYP <> ALB? Is Amtrak operating the trains anywhere near this max or planning to after NOV 11?

west point said:

Please clarify. What is the maximum consist that can operate NYP <> ALB? Is Amtrak operating the trains anywhere near this max or planning to after NOV 11?

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I haven't heard offically but,

The combined Canadian train will likely be 10 cars south of Albany, unless they cut a coach from the Adirondack. VIA Rail in Toronto won't accept any train longer than 6 cars due to the wye in Mimico.

I don't think they plan on lengthening any other train, unless they top and tail to avoid the East River tunnels. If they do, it'll be by one coach.

Wait and see.

Lots of people in the Hudson Valley north of Poughkeepsie and up into the southern edge of the Adirondacks rely on Empire Service trains from Albany, Hudson and Rhinecliff to get back and forth to NYC for business and personal reasons. The region has a huge contingent of people whose weekend homes over the past couple of decades have become their primary residences, and especially since the pandemic. Even well into Stefanik's district, people drive to Rensselaer to catch the train because the service there is fast and frequent, with many more schedule choices than at Saratoga Springs and north. So slashing the service in a way that leaves three-hour gaps and makes it less convenient to use is going to upset a significant group of people, and legislators clearly are already hearing about it.

Besides making the schedule less convenient, the other issue is capacity. Many of these trains already sell out or are available only at the highest fare buckets in the Thursday-Sunday period unless one books weeks in advance. So in a very real sense riders will be paying more for less service. Most of the train sets I see now have five cars. Adding a sixth would help, though it doesn't make up for the scheduling gaps.

I think I recall that if they add more than six cars, they have to add another crew member?

Platform lengths, wish there was a nationwide list. Cobbled together this:

• ALB: 7 cars ( Trainweb, unsourced Wikipedia. Seems reasonable from map.)
• HUD: 2 cars (map)
• RHI: 6 cars, will be lengthened and made high (Chuck Schumer, ESPA)
• POU: 6 cars (MNR)
• CRT: 10 cars (MNR)
• YNY: 10 cars (MNR)

MNR: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2647944/Operations-Metro-North-Railroad-Track-Charts.pdf (cited in Wikipedia)
Amfleets and MNR cars are the same length. The fabled MNR 12-car consists are only for some expresses on the Harlem Line, it seems, only south of N. White Plains.

I'm pretty sure Albany was extended, that looks like the original number. There was a major project adding the fourth track and lengthening at least one of the platforms. I don't remember if they did both. The whole Lake pulls in and is joined/split with the Boston section

They did extend and pretty sure they did both platforms. CDTA originally ran out of funds, kept platforms short, and omitted one track. That has all been fixed.

DOT has to pay for a 6th and 7th car, which incurs a 3rd conductor. Don't hold your breath. I think they were very happy to have the excuse for train-offs.

The length of platforms at ALB are 1040' and 820'. The shorter platform still continues as low level platform beyond its end to the same track level crossing at the end of the 1040' platform.

It is indeed true that adding more cars beyond six would require an additional Assistant Conductor for which NYSDOT is not willing to cough up the money. So here we are.

Amtrak25 said:

They did extend and pretty sure they did both platforms. CDTA originally ran out of funds, kept platforms short, and omitted one track. That has all been fixed.

DOT has to pay for a 6th and 7th car, which incurs a 3rd conductor. Don't hold your breath. I think they were very happy to have the excuse for train-offs.

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I should have mentioned that MNR document I posted was from 2015!

When I visited CRT, I remarked on the lengthy platforms to someone working there. She said, "we get long trains!" I was used to the New Haven line. We were there to see the Chagall and Matisse windows at the Union Church of Pocantico Hills. A third wheel joined our adventure so we ended up driving one way from Brooklyn and going to a coffee and sandwich place in Tarrytown. Bad idea on a Saturday in August! It's prime day-trip and weekend getaway territory. The Empire Service was also busy. It was 2022, so people were coming out. I ended up sitting on my suitcase in the handi area on Amtrak so my friend could enjoy the company of a funny loud lady from way upstate and her shy adult daughter. Being from the South we like characters, but I'm sure everyone else nearby was low-grade fuming and that's why a seat was open (without traversing the whole train). When I pointed out the George Washington Bridge, the lady said, "there's George! We're in the City."

The main elevator at CRT was broken, a disappointment for the NY area's premier commuter railroad. But it was staffed and even had a retail shop, both unusual these days on the MNR.

I take it the Empire Service trains cannot be turned at CRT because they can't be serviced north of there.

JamesWhitcombRiley said:

I take it the Empire Service trains cannot be turned at CRT because they can't be serviced north of there.

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I don't see any reason why an Amtrak train from Albany, topped-and-tailed, can't terminate there. There is nothing to service. There are siding tracks in the vicinity where they can park it for a few hours. But when you have an Amtrak and a DOT conspiring to throw their hands up in the air, here we are.

Why were the Empire Service trains recently cut back? Is it because they have to turn the trains in Sunnyside? Are there not enough (if any) cab cars or locomotives to be put on both ends so that the trains could simply terminate in Penn Station and not have to go to Sunnyside?

jb

Yes to turning trains in Sunnyside.

Cab cars lack 3rd rail shoes and cannot lead 3rd rail powered trains into Penn Staion as the rear loco may stop on a gap.

There are only 18 P42DMs.

Instead of a cab car why not lead with a P-42 that is not running the diesel? If the P-42DM ends up on a dead space, then start up the diesel to continue although that would be a delay? Surely there are enough P-42s now!

Turning an Empire Service train at NYP (instead of running through to Sunnyside) would require it to occupy a track and platform space at NYP for a significant period of time. During the day, especially during morning and evening rush hours, these tracks are in very short supply. (I think that is one of the reasons for Penn Station South, which would add a bunch of tracks and platforms.)

There might also be bottlenecks getting the turnaround crews and their supplies and equipment through Penn Station and down to the platforms while commuters and Amtrak passengers are clogging the station. Sunnyside is equipped for this. Do the NYP platforms have potable water, sewage drains, elevators, fuel, access to the wheels and trucks for inspections and maintenance (lubrication), etc.? Sunnyside has all this infrastructure.

The P-42DMs may be running on electric power while in NYP and over the Empire connector but some distance up the Hudson, they convert to diesel and run in diesel mode to their final destination, whether it is Montreal, Toronto, Niagara Falls or wherever. I think most of them swap engines at Albany, but they do require fuel for a major part of their journeys.

They could build a new servicing yard somewhere up the Hudson, but it would require years of further delay before starting the East River rehab, and juggling of the schedules and extra traffic on the Empire connection (another bottle neck) to get the trains back to the new yard between trips. They can't stop to do the servicing in the middle of a scheduled trip without adding at least half an hour, maybe an hour to the scheduled run time, especially on a busy short-distance route. An hour in Denver doesn't mean much for the CZ, but it would be dreadful at Poughkeepsie for 10 Empire Service trips, plus the LSL, the Maple Leaf, the Adirondack, the Ethan Allen, the new summer service to Pittsfield, and whatever other new or expanded services they want to add. That's 30 or 32 additional daily trains up and down the Empire connector to Poughkeepsie (or wherever) just to service them. (Maybe there is somewhere closer they could build a new service yard, but certainly not south of Yonkers.

There is a small 3-track yard west of the platforms that Empire trains use that they can back into for short while to get out of the way. Sometimes NJT uses them.

They don't have to pump the toilets or in any way service the train for a one way 140-mile trip down from Rensselaer. That's how the Adirondack should be run, and it need not even use that yard. Restore the 5:05am from Albany and a 11pm train back with quick turn arounds onto 69 and from 68. Better than this 90 minute nonsense for 69 and 64 in Rensselaer.

P32DM's don't go to Canada, but otherwise haul trains beyond Albany. They are only on 3rd rail power south of 40th Street or so.

Which tube is being repaired first?

And how is all of the equipment being moved into and out of the tunnel?

There are 4 tubes, only 2 were heavily damaged by Sandy. I think they are doing 1 and then 2 but I might have that wrong. While the work is ongoing, one tube will be completely shut and operations will be on the other 3.

Line 1 is the south most tube. Lines 2 & 3 criss-cross upon emerging in Queens.

Empire Service restored Dec 2 - March

https://www.localsyr.com/news/state-news/amtrak-to-restore-empire-service-for-holiday-season/

Today it was announced that some changes are being made temporarily to the original plan, and it involves adding a car to a number of trains and restoring the ADK/leaf and reinstating 235/238. They will reevaluate in March.