200MPH+ on the NEC: Is it practical?

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No one has mentioned it (though it may not even be a problem), but what about the different power systems? North of New Haven is newer ~25 year old catenary built to 60hz standards, but south of NH is much older (~90 year old) catenary built to 25hz standards. Does the older catenary/power standard affect speed at all?
 
No one has mentioned it (though it may not even be a problem), but what about the different power systems? North of New Haven is newer ~25 year old catenary built to 60hz standards, but south of NH is much older (~90 year old) catenary built to 25hz standards. Does the older catenary/power standard affect speed at all?
More the catenary structure itself than the power standard. The older variable tension catenary design does limit speeds. With modern multi voltage/ frequency locomotives the 25hz power is less of an issue. In Europe they use 16.7Hz catenary at high speeds e.g. Germany.
16.7Hz is not correct by the way; it is 50Hz divided by 3, so it is 16 2/3 Hz. Normal AC in Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz as in the US, Canada and quite a few other places. The history of the why for the old Pennsy's 25 Hz, I don't know. Likewise, I have no idea why the ex New Haven 11.5 kV 25 Hz was converted to 12.5 kV 60 Hz and the ex Pennsy side was not. I would suspect that the New Haven side when changed was not changed to be 25 kV to match the new electrification north of New Haven due to electrical clearance issues.

People with greater knowledge of things electrical please feel free to correct me, but I do not think frequency is that big an issue. Contact wire voltage is. If you can feed 25 kV electrically that is more efficient. Smaller voltages require larger wire sizes to carry the same amperage. Constant tension catenary also solves lots of problems. This comes under the heading of "Why did we not think of this a lot sooner?"
 
I believe the origins of 25Hz is in steel mills, many of which in the past also used this frequency for their equipment. There were plenty of steel mills in Pennsy-land back in the day and the Pennsy could thus basically build on a tried and proven technology and use a certain number of off the shelf parts rather than having to reinvent the wheel for every little detail. Then why did the steel mills adopt 25Hz? In the early days of large AC motors, commutation-induced arcing was a problem, which was why low frequencies were chosen. As motor technology advanced, higher frequencies became possible. But standards, once established, tend to last a long time. Although there were earlier examples, railway electrification at higher frequencies did not become a big thing until post WW2.

Voltage frequency has no tangible effect on catenary design that I can see. High speed differs from regular catenary in the arrangement of dampers that suppress mechanical oscillation of the wire. If these oscillations are not adequately mitigated, they could lead to intermittent loss of contact pressure for the pantograph or even intermittent total loss of contact . These damping needs affect distance between supports and also counterweights and spring/elastic elements.
 
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16.7Hz is not correct by the way; it is 50Hz divided by 3, so it is 16 2/3 Hz.
16 2/3 vs 16.7 hz. From Wikipedia:
"The first generators were synchronous AC generators or synchronous transformers; however, with the introduction of modern double fed induction generators, the control current induced an undesired DC component, leading to pole overheating problems. This was solved by shifting the frequency slightly away from exactly ⅓ the grid frequency; 16.7 hertz was arbitrarily chosen to remain within the tolerance of existing traction motors."
 
Track and catenary improvements that save minutes are usually just backlogged state of good repair work. It's quite a long list.

I wonder if Amtrak will ever buy, or trade for, or claim, Metro-North Railroad's mileage.
 


People with greater knowledge of things electrical please feel free to correct me, but I do not think frequency is that big an issue. Contact wire voltage is. If you can feed 25 kV electrically that is more efficient. Smaller voltages require larger wire sizes to carry the same amperage. …
I am going to guess you mean smaller voltages require larger wire sizes to carry the same power? P=VI

On a side note, I live in an older farm house. The previous owner told me they used to have 25hz power to the house requiring 25 hz appliances such as the refrigerator. We are somewhat near an old power generating station location long retired for an electrified line and the surrounding areas were wired into these stations.
 
16 2/3 vs 16.7 hz. From Wikipedia:
"The first generators were synchronous AC generators or synchronous transformers; however, with the introduction of modern double fed induction generators, the control current induced an undesired DC component, leading to pole overheating problems. This was solved by shifting the frequency slightly away from exactly ⅓ the grid frequency; 16.7 hertz was arbitrarily chosen to remain within the tolerance of existing traction motors."
O Kkkkkkk. Duly noted. First time I heard this.
 
PRR actually started out as 11 kV 25 hZ. (Safe Harbor). Sometime after WW-2 PRR raised it to 11.5 kV. Amtrak sometime in the 1980s raised the voltages to 12.0 kV. Each rise of course allowed the then current catenary to provide more power with same size contact wire. Now all these numbers are actually nominal with extremes +/- 10 % and desired +/- 5%. If the voltage gets too near the high amount on a section of catenary, the regeneration feature reverts to dynamic braking instead.

My understanding is that MNRR went to 12,5 kV catenary was due to insufficient clearances on the many New Haven catenary and signal bridges that would have had to been raised or replaced.

Also, as others posted the distance between catenary holders has to be shorter with higher speeds that can cause loss of contact by the pantograph. Straight track PRR standard was 180 feet. The replacement sections for constant tension is nominally 120 feet. That is one reason the higher cost than expected converting to constant tension has occurred. Note I use to observe GG1s have separation arcs often between WAS - PHL. Those arcs often caused static outbursts on my VHF radios.
 
PRR actually started out as 11 kV 25 hZ. (Safe Harbor). Sometime after WW-2 PRR raised it to 11.5 kV. Amtrak sometime in the 1980s raised the voltages to 12.0 kV. Each rise of course allowed the then current catenary to provide more power with same size contact wire. Now all these numbers are actually nominal with extremes +/- 10 % and desired +/- 5%. If the voltage gets too near the high amount on a section of catenary, the regeneration feature reverts to dynamic braking instead.

My understanding is that MNRR went to 12,5 kV catenary was due to insufficient clearances on the many New Haven catenary and signal bridges that would have had to been raised or replaced.

Also, as others posted the distance between catenary holders has to be shorter with higher speeds that can cause loss of contact by the pantograph. Straight track PRR standard was 180 feet. The replacement sections for constant tension is nominally 120 feet. That is one reason the higher cost than expected converting to constant tension has occurred. Note I use to observe GG1s have separation arcs often between WAS - PHL. Those arcs often caused static outbursts on my VHF radios.
Constant tension catenary can actually have much longer span distances these days. Siemens Sicat SX, good for speeds up to 250 kmh (so almost all of the NEC), can have a span distance of 112 m, and the limit at this distance is wind. This was successfully deployed in Denmark, and in the UK with a 102 m span distance (good at wind speeds up to 61 mph), and in Hungary with 99 m span distances. For higher speeds, Siemens Sicat HA, good for speeds up to 350 kmh, has a span distance of 70 m. An in-between system good for ~300 kmh and ~90 m spans should be possible and would cover the whole NEC without needing to rebuild any catenary poles.

Sicat SX: https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...-93928c2f915a/elektryfikacja-sicat-sx-en-.pdf
Sicat HA: https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...mens-contact-line-material-cat-en.pdf#page=19
 
"in the UK with a 102 m span distance (good at wind speeds up to 61 mph), and in Hungary with 99 m span distances. For higher speeds, Siemens Sicat HA, good for speeds up to 350 kmh, has a span distance of 70 m. An in-between system good for ~300 kmh": are 350 and 300 kmh wind speeds or train speeds? And what happens to the British catenary if the wind is over 61 mph? Does it sway out of alignment? Fall over? 61 mph sounds to me like a low threshold.
 
Constant tension catenary can actually have much longer span distances these days. Siemens Sicat SX, good for speeds up to 250 kmh (so almost all of the NEC), can have a span distance of 112 m, and the limit at this distance is wind. This was successfully deployed in Denmark, and in the UK with a 102 m span distance (good at wind speeds up to 61 mph), and in Hungary with 99 m span distances. For higher speeds, Siemens Sicat HA, good for speeds up to 350 kmh, has a span distance of 70 m. An in-between system good for ~300 kmh and ~90 m spans should be possible and would cover the whole NEC without needing to rebuild any catenary poles.

Sicat SX: https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...-93928c2f915a/elektryfikacja-sicat-sx-en-.pdf
Sicat HA: https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...mens-contact-line-material-cat-en.pdf#page=19
Exactly my thoughts on constant tension catenary. Maybe the concept of shorter spans was because the tension was not high enough? With higher tension the uplift from the pantograph is reduced as is lateral sway of the wire itself. For those that think in US Customary units, 300 km/hr = 186 mph, and 90 m = 295 feet. Therefore, I have not understood why the spans could not safely be longer with constant tension than with fixed catenary.
 
"in the UK with a 102 m span distance (good at wind speeds up to 61 mph), and in Hungary with 99 m span distances. For higher speeds, Siemens Sicat HA, good for speeds up to 350 kmh, has a span distance of 70 m. An in-between system good for ~300 kmh": are 350 and 300 kmh wind speeds or train speeds? And what happens to the British catenary if the wind is over 61 mph? Does it sway out of alignment? Fall over? 61 mph sounds to me like a low threshold.
I don't recall the catenary being problematic during high winds, but I will ask around. I have experienced a cancellation once when the wires were brought down by a pantograph due to hot weather. (I got a free taxi ride from London to Harwich out of that, so not a complete disaster. :cool: )
 
MODERATOR'S NOTE: About a dozen posts on general ideas about reducing trip time have been moved to their own thread at:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/ideas-for-reducing-nec-trip-times.88259/

Please continue that discussing in the new thread and leave this thread for discussing technical issues of 200mph, electrification changes and such.

Thanks for your cooperation, understanding and participation.
 
One note on comparing the catenary in Continental Europe vs North America is temperature: our temperatures are more extreme, hotter in summer and colder in winter in large parts of the country - and the biggest difference is that, in winter particularly, there can be, no, are, large temperature swings. Point of comparison; northern Norden, once it gets cold, it stays cold through the winter, so less freeze-thaw type weather. Obviously, the mid-Atlantic States are milder, but still more volatile.
 
One note on comparing the catenary in Continental Europe vs North America is temperature: our temperatures are more extreme, hotter in summer and colder in winter in large parts of the country - and the biggest difference is that, in winter particularly, there can be, no, are, large temperature swings. Point of comparison; northern Norden, once it gets cold, it stays cold through the winter, so less freeze-thaw type weather. Obviously, the mid-Atlantic States are milder, but still more volatile.
This is where constant tension catenary shows its major advantages. You simply have to make the available travel distance for the weight sufficient for the temperature swings. My inclination if designing such would be, take the lowest known temperature in the area, use a number at least 10 degrees F lower and make that the location for the top of the travel path for your tensioning weight. Then for the highest known temperature, add solar heating plus say at least 20 degrees F higher and make that the location of the bottom of the travel path for your tensioning weight. The reason for the greater allowance on the high temperature end is that if the weight bottoms out the wire loses tension and you begin to get slack wire issues. For the low temperature, if the weight hits the top of its path you get an increase in wire tension which is likely to be of no significance. But, if you are generous with your travel limits, neither should happen.
 
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The NEC does use constant tension cat on most of it however some sections particularly around New Jersey have older Variable tension lines.
Most of New York to Washington DC and all of Philly to Harrisburg is not constant tension. There is all of less than 30 miles of constant tension south of New York. So the most heavily used by Amtrak part of the NEC does not have constant tension.
 
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