1.5 billion for Amtrak in stimulus with daily service mandate (Passed in Congress)

[joelkfla]

Bringing the thread back to its original topic....

Nice try.

 

[Cal]

Nice try.

I agree

 

[Josh M]

The bill just passed the House 219-212 just after 2:00 A.M. (Feb. 27th). No changes were made to the Amtrak funding provisions. I was in and out of listening to the debate, and I heard a swipe or two taken at the Amtrak funding. Nothing else really noteworthy, Amtrak-related or otherwise. On to the Senate!

 

[Cal]

The bill just passed the House 219-212 just after 2:00 A.M. (Feb. 27th). No changes were made to the Amtrak funding provisions. I was in and out of listening to the debate, and I heard a swipe or two taken at the Amtrak funding. Nothing else really noteworthy, Amtrak-related or otherwise. On to the Senate!

Let's go!

 

[nti1094]

Interesting. I wonder what will happen if a state does not want the service. I am thinking

Not nearly as bipartisan as it’s been the last few years. According to RPA today, 22 of 30Republicans voted YES on the amendment to zero out ALL Amtrak funding in the bill. All Dems voted in favor of Amtrak.

Luckily there is generally better support among Senate republicans than house republicans. In fact there is a good chance there would be no Southwest Chief today if not for Jerry Moran of Kansas.

But that is the difference between the senate and the house... As George W Bush remembers LBJ describing it to his father:

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

In my observations the Senate GOP generally doesn’t legislate for the common good when they are the minority. It will be interesting to see if even one GOP member votes for the stimulus. While I agree staunch Amtrak supporters like Jerry Moran will continue to advocate for the national network I don’t expect to see 94-6 Senate votes on specific Amtrak issues like we’ve recently seen. Maybe more in Amtrak’s favor of 78-22? Still a sold majority thankfully.

As far as new corridors go exactly what happened in the 2009-2011 era. With the feds offering a 90/10 match the GOP leaders of FL, OH, IA told the feds to pound sand out of what I can only say was spite for Obama and Democrats. It was a 90/10 match! It would have helped those red states immensely. Thats the gist of it, exact numbers and how it went down can be in the forum achieves on here or googling.

Im most familiar with Iowa since I live here.

“The Iowa extension was priced at $108.6 million, according to a previous estimate. Federal authorities would have covered $88 million, leaving the state’s share at about $20 million.”

https://qctimes.com/news/opinion/ed...cle_ff0b7790-80e4-523f-a1da-48504d75306f.html

 

[nti1094]

When comparing two forms of intercity travel, the passenger-mile metric seems about the best metric to use.

If anyone wants to disprove that Amtrak receives much greater subsidies than commercial airlines per passenger mile, I am all ears. I hear the claim thrown around a lot, but have never seen a shred of proof - at least when you adjust for the number of people and distance travelled.

Ryan, you can nitpick my methodology, but you haven't come remotely close to demonstrating that my overall point is invalid - which is really what matters here. I understand that you are defensive (I used to be too!), but the reality is what it is. Citing one small subsidy by the Missoula County Airport Authority is not going to erase the nearly 35x advantage Amtrak enjoys - even if we assume that the subsidy was not included already in my numbers. Keep in mind that I did not include federal subsidies for freight infrastructure that Amtrak benefits directly from.

This isn't meant to be anti-Amtrak. On the contrary, it is meant to make Amtrak advocacy more effective by focusing on arguments that have legitimacy. I've never understood why people believe that the best argument is based on a demonstrably false claim.

One small point about the freight subsidy you mention... Remember they pay property taxes on their infrastructure that vastly exceed any subsidy they might get. (although that’s a local tax) The New York Central blamed opressive property taxes for a lot of their problems, and as a significant reason for not improving their lines or even downgrading or single tracking because the tax burden would go up
with improvements.

And don’t forget Air Traffic Control costs. although admittedly spread over 2 billion passengers a year that might not be that great a costs, not to mention the trickle down benefits of the greater GDP resulting from it.

Rail is significantly more efficient at moving both freight and passengers. The overall benefit would be much greater if we had a system that served a far greater share of passengers. But you would also want to balance those different needs (freight vs. passenger) and not favor one over the other.

What advocates need to focus on is not modal subsidies, because you are right, that argument doesn’t make it out the gate. What they should focus on is economic benefit of service. Or quality of life. Or that there is a benefit in redundant modes of transport. There are large parts of the country that need more transportation choices. Essential Air Service has been shrinking ever smaller since deregulation, and that is hurting many communities.
For economic development reasons both Amtrak and the EAS should be expanded a lot.

 

[MARC Rider]

you start to realize why Amtrak struggles so hard just to reach some sort of sustained relevance to the average consumer.

Amtrak manages to be "relevant" in the Northeast. Maybe someone needs to see what makes it so and then duplicate that in other parts of the country. And even in the long-distance world, they manage to succeed in filling trains most of the time. There must be an interest in rail travel.

 

[jis]

There is now an inherent divergence between the version of the Bill that the Senate will pass and the version that the House passed, and they will have to reconcile the difference.

Since the Senate Parliamentarian has rules that the $15/hr wage thing cannot be done using Budget Reconciliation and there is zero hope of the bill passing as a regular bill, it seems inevitable that a bill minus the $15/hr is the only one that has any chance of becoming law in March.

That is assuming no Democrats defect in the Senate and vote against the bill voted on in the Senate. Once that passes in the Senate, the House will either have to agree to swallow the bitter pill and basically accept that bill, go through another round of horse trading, or let it die. I don't think they will do the latter.

 

[Barb Stout]

And as to money per mile, why not compare some of our large western states with small populations and huge distances and ask why they should get as much as they do to build those long, less used roads when compared to the small, dense states? For example, should the government not have paid for interstate 25 through less populated NM and even lesser populated Wyoming because their subsidy per car mile is higher than the 24 miles of I-95 in Delaware?

Having driven I-25 on a regular basis through Albuquerque, your statement about I-25 in NM made me laugh, even though I understand your point.

 

[MARC Rider]

Having driven I-25 on a regular basis through Albuquerque, your statement about I-25 in NM made me laugh, even though I understand your point.

I've driven I-10 from San Antonio to Fort Stockton, and later between Fort Stockton and Van Horn. Once you get west of Junction, there is literally nothing around along the road, but I was amazed at the amount of traffic, most of which I suppose was headed for El Paso. The trucks may have been headed to points beyond El Paso, too. The speed limit also jumps from 75 mph to 80 mph.

 

[Willbridge]

That is a very important point....

I think when people talk about advantages that airlines have they really are implicitly driven by information about the past as to how things came to be this way, more than what it is now. That is why I suspect people are possibly talking a bit past each other in this discussion.

During the transition from the supremacy of rail to road and air it is alleged that taxes collected from rail were used significantly to fund development of the other two modes. As to whose fault it was, can be a major separate discussion. The railroad management had not exactly earned themselves great kudos in either being user friendly or being community friendly. They were indeed often seen as the rogues. So when there was a chance to get back at them, it is possible everyone piled on both through diversion of resources and exercising unreasonable government control on them. This is something that was finally addressed in the '70s in the 3R and 4R Acts, which among other things created Amtrak and Conrail and transfered commuter service to half a dozen state agencies.

So in some sense, both sides in this argument about who has and had advantages are probably correct, depending on the time span over which one is focusing.

This issue is well-described in Stephen B. Goddard's book Getting There. He also brings in an issue that modern discussions overlook: the negative reaction to the rail service cuts and efficiencies ordered by the USRRA in 1917-1920, right as the highway lobby and unregulated motor carriers were starting to roll. To a lot of the public there was no difference between the privately-run railways before the USRRA, the government run railways during the USRRA and the tightly regulated railways from 1920 into the 1980's.

This is an ad in the Ku Klux Klan paper for just one of the unregulated bus lines competing with the regulated SP&S trains. The public loved it because they thought they could have all of the bus AND rail service. The philosophy behind it was coincidentally reflected in the ad below -- highways meant local control.

 

[toddinde]

When comparing two forms of intercity travel, the passenger-mile metric seems about the best metric to use.

If anyone wants to disprove that Amtrak receives much greater subsidies than commercial airlines per passenger mile, I am all ears. I hear the claim thrown around a lot, but have never seen a shred of proof - at least when you adjust for the number of people and distance travelled.

Ryan, you can nitpick my methodology, but you haven't come remotely close to demonstrating that my overall point is invalid - which is really what matters here. I understand that you are defensive (I used to be too!), but the reality is what it is. Citing one small subsidy by the Missoula County Airport Authority is not going to erase the nearly 35x advantage Amtrak enjoys - even if we assume that the subsidy was not included already in my numbers. Keep in mind that I did not include federal subsidies for freight infrastructure that Amtrak benefits directly from.

This isn't meant to be anti-Amtrak. On the contrary, it is meant to make Amtrak advocacy more effective by focusing on arguments that have legitimacy. I've never understood why people believe that the best argument is based on a demonstrably false claim.

The passenger mile metric doesn't make sense. The airlines will always win because people fly longer distances. That is not the measure of value or utility of a transportation mode. Further, talking about the subsidy enjoyed by the Missoula County Airport doesn't have any relation to Amtrak since it doesn't serve the area. It doesn't matter what the dollars are, its the value that transportation brings. Amtrak has been proven to provide an outsize economic impact where it serves.

 

[Exvalley]

The passenger mile metric doesn't make sense.

I also gave “per trip” figures. Amtrak comes out way ahead using that metric as well.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

As predicted the GOP is not as pro Amtrak as they were pre Biden. Viciously going after Amtrak in CoVid bill. Thankfully there’s a few level headed members of the GOP in the Senate and a slim Democratic majority. For the rest of the GOP that wants to keep our infrastructure in the Stone Age “aka 3rd world“ I hope they get voted out in 2 years to put it mildly. Infrastructure puts people to work.

“Rep. Ben Cline added the Amtrak spending to his list of "the most egregious provisions unrelated to COVID" in the stimulus bill.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/republicans-aim-billions-set-aside-135107750.html

 

[City of Miami]

In my observations the Senate GOP generally doesn’t legislate for the common good when they are the minority. It will be interesting to see if even one GOP member votes for the stimulus. While I agree staunch Amtrak supporters like Jerry Moran will continue to advocate for the national network I don’t expect to see 94-6 Senate votes on specific Amtrak issues like we’ve recently seen. Maybe more in Amtrak’s favor of 78-22? Still a sold majority thankfully.

As far as new corridors go exactly what happened in the 2009-2011 era. With the feds offering a 90/10 match the GOP leaders of FL, OH, IA told the feds to pound sand out of what I can only say was spite for Obama and Democrats. It was a 90/10 match! It would have helped those red states immensely. Thats the gist of it, exact numbers and how it went down can be in the forum achieves on here or googling.

Im most familiar with Iowa since I live here.

“The Iowa extension was priced at $108.6 million, according to a previous estimate. Federal authorities would have covered $88 million, leaving the state’s share at about $20 million.”

https://qctimes.com/news/opinion/ed...cle_ff0b7790-80e4-523f-a1da-48504d75306f.html

IIRC the difficulty was that the match only covered capital costs and the state would inherit 100% of operation costs which we know is a negative number with no hope of ever being otherwise. They choose not to add that into their budget.

 

[jis]

IIRC the difficulty was that the match only covered capital costs and the state would inherit 100% of operation costs which we know is a negative number with no hope of ever being otherwise. They choose not to add that into their budget.

Indeed, absent any help for operations at least for a significant startup period, some saw it as a poison pill they were unwilling to swallow.

 

[City of Miami]

As predicted the GOP is not as pro Amtrak as they were pre Biden. Viciously going after Amtrak in CoVid bill. Thankfully there’s a few level headed members of the GOP in the Senate and a slim Democratic majority. For the rest of the GOP that wants to keep our infrastructure in the Stone Age “aka 3rd world“ I hope they get voted out in 2 years to put it mildly. Infrastructure puts people to work.

“Rep. Ben Cline added the Amtrak spending to his list of "the most egregious provisions unrelated to COVID" in the stimulus bill.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/republicans-aim-billions-set-aside-135107750.html

It's all pork isn't it, by definition. That's the whole idea of stimulus. "Here, take this and go spend it somewhere".

 

[John Bredin]

We know Amtrak has suffered due to Covid and has at least as much (political, not legal) "claim" on relief funds as any other industry. But the GOP schtick with any stimulus or relief bill is to describe the emergency incredibly narrowly and then loudly and repeatedly condemn anything in the bill they claim to be unrelated to the emergency.

I heard a GOP congressman on one of the Sunday morning network political shows condemning that the Covid relief bill has arts funding, disingenuously (IMHO) ignoring that theaters and museums have lost patrons to Covid just as much as restaurant and bars, even more so as restaurants still get paid for takeout but not many theaters or museums get paid for online prerecorded (past) performances or art shows.

To bring my point back a bit more to transportation, I remember GOP Congressmen condemning the Superstorm Sandy relief bill for funding the New York City subway, studiously ignoring that the money was to repair flood damage to the subway tunnels, electrical equipment, etc. To hear them speak, the only appropriate purpose of federal relief funds was to evacuate, feed, shelter, clothe and treat immediately-affected persons during and immediately after the storm, and public money that went to anything but flooded homeowners and reimbursing first responders was nigh-fraudulent pork.

 

[jis]

To bring my point back a bit more to transportation, I remember GOP Congressmen condemning the Superstorm Sandy relief bill for funding the New York City subway, studiously ignoring that the money was to repair flood damage to the subway tunnels, electrical equipment, etc. To hear them speak, the only appropriate purpose of federal relief funds was to evacuate, feed, shelter, clothe and treat immediately-affected persons during and immediately after the storm, and public money that went to anything but flooded homeowners and reimbursing first responders was nigh-fraudulent pork.

That was Ted Cruze who is now falling all over himself trying to get the outcome of Texas' own stupidity funded adequately by the Feds. The hypocrisy knows no bounds with these scumbags.

 

[me_little_me]

That was Ted Cruze who is now falling all over himself trying to get the outcome of Texas' own stupidity funded adequately by the Feds. The hypocrisy knows no bounds with these scumbags.

Unfortunately, hpocricy-itis is far more widespread and infests both sides. Witness our mayors, congresspeople and governors who speak one way but practice another. True, when all you care about is being heard, it's hard to make that happen with a mask on but when you open your mouth without one, you are spreading hypocrisy faster and further than covid because Covid can't be transmitted by video.

 

[west point]

Airliners might have a lower subsidy but the private aircraft are getting a much bigger one than Amtrak has ever gotten.. Think what the private jets get ! BTW government will not gladly produce those figures.

 

[neroden]

There is now an inherent divergence between the version of the Bill that the Senate will pass and the version that the House passed, and they will have to reconcile the difference.

Since the Senate Parliamentarian has rules that the $15/hr wage thing cannot be done using Budget Reconciliation and there is zero hope of the bill passing as a regular bill, it seems inevitable that a bill minus the $15/hr is the only one that has any chance of becoming law in March.

That is assuming no Democrats defect in the Senate and vote against the bill voted on in the Senate. Once that passes in the Senate, the House will either have to agree to swallow the bitter pill and basically accept that bill, go through another round of horse trading, or let it die. I don't think they will do the latter.

Manchin has ludicrous power. He doesn't seem to understand which side his bread is buttered on, though. His constituents support $15/hr minimum wage and have no interest at all in maintaining the filibuster. But he's the one who's preventing the Democrats from overruling the parlimentarian (something VP Hubert Humphrey apparently did routinely).

 

[neroden]

IIRC the difficulty was that the match only covered capital costs and the state would inherit 100% of operation costs which we know is a negative number with no hope of ever being otherwise. They choose not to add that into their budget.

Yeah, the Republican extremists in the Iowa state legislature chose not to bring business into Iowa (which the train would have brought), and to forego all the tax revenue they would have gotten, out of a shortsighted concern over the much smaller operating subsidy. Iowa City government was *furious*. Iowa's loss (particularly Iowa City) as people and businesses will continue to move out of Iowa; Illinois's gain.

 

[Trogdor]

Airliners might have a lower subsidy but the private aircraft are getting a much bigger one than Amtrak has ever gotten.. Think what the private jets get ! BTW government will not gladly produce those figures.

What do private jets get in subsidy?