6 hour delay between cities 200 miles apart is preposterous!

[niemi24s]

How many sidings (with single or double turnouts) are there on the LD routes that are too short for an Amtrak train?

 

[jis]

How many sidings (with single or double turnouts) are there on the LD routes that are too short for an Amtrak train?

Those are not the problem. It is the sidings that are too short for the prevalent length of freight trains that are the problems. That is where Amtrak trains get holed up while an army of opposing direction freight trains go by, since that is the only way they can be crossed. Freights are often fleeted, so once an Amtrak hits a fleet, that is pretty much it. They are stuck in the hole. This would not happen if the sidings were long enough to hold the standard length freights.

 

[TrackWalker]

How many sidings (with single or double turnouts) are there on the LD routes that are too short for an Amtrak train?

Back in 2010 during a 6,000 foot siding extension in Stanwood, WA a single crossover (and new control point) was added about 1500 feet south of the north siding switch specifically built just long enough for the Cascade Talgos to meet or duck out of the way of freights.

 

[jimdex]

How much money does a freight railroad make if they get the Amtrak train over the line on time? How much money does the freight railroad lose if their dispatching causes Amtrak to be late?

That apparently varies, depending on the individual contracts between each railroad and Amtrak. But it appears obvious that most railroads consider Amtrak a negligible source of revenues. If Amtrak paid higher fees, perhaps the freight railroads would be more anxious to host and retain Amtrak service.

 

[niemi24s]

Those are not the problem. It is the sidings that are too short for the prevalent length of freight trains that are the problems. That is where Amtrak trains get holed up while an army of opposing direction freight trains go by, since that is the only way they can be crossed. Freights are often fleeted, so once an Amtrak hits a fleet, that is pretty much it. They are stuck in the hole. This would not happen if the sidings were long enough to hold the standard length freights.

"I see!" said the blind carpenter, as he picked up his hammer and saw. Thanks.

 

[MisterUptempo]

That apparently varies, depending on the individual contracts between each railroad and Amtrak. But it appears obvious that most railroads consider Amtrak a negligible source of revenues. If Amtrak paid higher fees, perhaps the freight railroads would be more anxious to host and retain Amtrak service.

It's about incentives and disincentives. Carrots and sticks, so to speak.

The Class I's may try to justify their contempt for Amtrak on their rails by complaining about the quality of the carrot. That's understandable, considering the freight railroads, throughout Amtrak's existence, have yet to feel the sting of being thoroughly thwacked by the stick for not fulfilling the obligations they agreed to.

Perhaps it's high time to haul out that stick and let them have it.

 

[zephyr17]

Hopefully, once the new regs are fully implemented that allow Amtrak to take timekeeping issues to the STB for enforcement action, they will.

The railroads howled loudly about them and lost. The fact that they howled and fought them for years makes me optimistic they might be effective. The railroads clearly did not want Amtrak to have that "stick".

 

[Willbridge]

Back in 2010 during a 6,000 foot siding extension in Stanwood, WA a single crossover (and new control point) was added about 1500 feet south of the north siding switch specifically built just long enough for the Cascade Talgos to meet or duck out of the way of freights.

Oregon has been working with the UP to extend the siding at glamorous Pulp, Oregon where delays often occur between Portland and Salem. They have several other joint projects lined up but it's been a slow process. The priority Oregon projects are those that benefit passengers AND freight. Photo shows the route of the Cascades and Coast Starlight in SE Portland.

 

[nferr]

According to a post I read on FB (don't remember which group), there was a disabled freight train. IIRC, much of the route is single track (don't know about the specific point where this supposed breakdown occurred), so if a train breaks down, you've got nowhere to go.

So the original post about a 6 hour delay due to freight interference is probably a bunch of nonsense. Nice.

Yes I have seen plenty of delays because of freight but it's often not just because the freights are being given preference. There's siding lengths etc, unless you're in the dispatching rooms you don't know what the track traffic looks like far ahead. and often Amtrak is behind schedule of it's own accord which screws all the traffic up.

 

[IndyLions]

So the original post about a 6 hour delay due to freight interference is probably a bunch of nonsense. Nice.

Yes I have seen plenty of delays because of freight but it's often not just because the freights are being given preference. There's siding lengths etc, unless you're in the dispatching rooms you don't know what the track traffic looks like far ahead. and often Amtrak is behind schedule of it's own accord which screws all the traffic up.

If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.

I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.

Then the exact situation that jis described occurred. We were put in the hole by NS, and a fleet of five or six freight trains were prioritized as we sat there helpless.

This was NOT a case where we missed our slot.

We were not one minute late at the point we were sidelined, but we were over 3 hours late afterwards. NS just blatantly ignored their responsibilities and the law, because they could. That’s intentional criminal behavior in my opinion.

No one here says that all delays are caused by the Class I’s. Amtrak has a lot of work to do to get their house in order when it comes to maintenance and efficiency.

But anybody who defends the Class I’s actions is dead wrong. They have a responsibility they or their predecessors signed up for, and they are intentionally ignoring their responsibilities and in some cases flaunting it. They should have been called on the carpet years ago – and I only hope in my lifetime it actually happens.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.

I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.

Then the exact situation that jis described occurred. We were put in the hole by NS, and a fleet of five or six freight trains were prioritized as we sat there helpless.

This was NOT a case where we missed our slot.

We were not one minute late at the point we were sidelined, but we were over 3 hours late afterwards. NS just blatantly ignored their responsibilities and the law, because they could. That’s intentional criminal behavior in my opinion.

No one here says that all delays are caused by the Class I’s. Amtrak has a lot of work to do to get their house in order when it comes to maintenance and efficiency.

But anybody who defends the Class I’s actions is dead wrong. They have a responsibility they or their predecessors signed up for, and they are intentionally ignoring their responsibilities and in some cases flaunting it. They should have been called on the carpet years ago – and I only hope in my lifetime it actually happens.

Don’t you have to cross over other tracks to reach the Amtrak owned tracks? It could be the dispatcher that put you in the hole wasn’t able to line up those tracks for reasons beyond their control so they lined up trains to go around you.

I’m not making an excuse, but saying there could be a reason.

 

[TrackWalker]

I can attest that there are times when the best laid plans of dispatchers can sometimes turn to crap through no fault of their own.

 

[IndyLions]

Don’t you have to cross over other tracks to reach the Amtrak owned tracks? It could be the dispatcher that put you in the hole wasn’t able to line up those tracks for reasons beyond their control so they lined up trains to go around you.

I’m not making an excuse, but saying there could be a reason.

That’s not the point.

The reason “why” they put the legally preferred train on the sidelines isn’t important, unless it’s an emergency.

This was not an emergency – it was an artifact of the way they choose to run their railroad. It put them afoul of the law, and if there were any consequences - they would’ve done something differently.

And for all those Class I apologists out there - it’s not like they’re taking terrific care of their customers. It’s not like freight traffic is at an all-time high, and freight customer satisfaction is off the charts – I haven’t heard any of that.

 

[IndyLions]

I can attest that there are times when the best laid plans of dispatchers can sometimes turn to crap through no fault of their own.

Dispatchers are important employees but small fish in the big pond. It’s those at higher levels that dictate the operating strategies that lead to the illegal results.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That’s not the point.

The reason “why” they put the legally preferred train on the sidelines isn’t important, unless it’s an emergency.

This was not an emergency – it was an artifact of the way they choose to run their railroad. It put them afoul of the law, and if there were any consequences - they would’ve done something differently.

And for all those Class I apologists out there - it’s not like they’re taking terrific care of their customers. It’s not like freight traffic is at an all-time high, and freight customer satisfaction is off the charts – I haven’t heard any of that.

It could be the point.... without knowing why the dispatcher made the decision to put your train in the hole, you don’t know.

Does NS cross another railroads tracks to get to Amtrak owned tracks at that point?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

According to a post I read on FB (don't remember which group), there was a disabled freight train. IIRC, much of the route is single track (don't know about the specific point where this supposed breakdown occurred), so if a train breaks down, you've got nowhere to go.

So the original post about a 6 hour delay due to freight interference is probably a bunch of nonsense. Nice.

I don't see how any of this would absolve the freight host of responsibility. I suppose we could change "freight interference" to "freight obstruction" or "freight maintenance" if that makes people feel better.

 

[Seaboard92]

There is a reason if you get a clean run out of Chicago to Porter you can order food in New Buffalo and walk to pick it up without missing the train. When I took No. 352 this last summer I had enough time to run stick my feet in Lake Michigan a half mile a way, grab food, and get back on. We arrived something like 25 minutes early.

 

[nferr]

Where are they going to put those five or six freight trains to allow the Amtrak train to go through? Do they have a siding to hold five or six freight trains? Think it through before making blind assumptions. We don't know the facts. Thats all I'm saying.

 

[me_little_me]

Where are they going to put those five or six freight trains to allow the Amtrak train to go through? Do they have a siding to hold five or six freight trains? Think it through before making blind assumptions. We don't know the facts. Thats all I'm saying.

It was their (or their predecessor's) decision to agree to the conditions of eliminating passenger service.
It was their decision to run longer and longer trains.
It was their decision to come up with a plan to make more money by not funding longer sidings, additional crews, etc to meet their needs even if it meant violating the terms of their contract.
It was their (or their predecessor's) decision to pull up second tracks in some areas and go back to single tracking.

 

[adamj023]

If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.

I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.

Then the exact situation that jis described occurred. We were put in the hole by NS, and a fleet of five or six freight trains were prioritized as we sat there helpless.

This was NOT a case where we missed our slot.

We were not one minute late at the point we were sidelined, but we were over 3 hours late afterwards. NS just blatantly ignored their responsibilities and the law, because they could. That’s intentional criminal behavior in my opinion.

No one here says that all delays are caused by the Class I’s. Amtrak has a lot of work to do to get their house in order when it comes to maintenance and efficiency.

But anybody who defends the Class I’s actions is dead wrong. They have a responsibility they or their predecessors signed up for, and they are intentionally ignoring their responsibilities and in some cases flaunting it. They should have been called on the carpet years ago – and I only hope in my lifetime it actually happens.

Totally disagree. The Class I railroads own and are responsible for their own tracks. Amtrak just leases rights to use it. Freight absolutely should be a priority and more people depend on freight than actually ride Amtrak. However I do believe there needs to be more passenger tracks built and bypasses and crossovers and the like built so passenger trains won’t be affected as much as freight trains. The Freight railroads contribute substantially more than Amtrak does when Amtrak leases their tracks. The freight railroads are profitable businesses with extremely high volumes of freight. Passengers are lucky if they are able to use the freight tracks but they should not be forced to be prioritized. What should happen on routes with lots of freight trains is more investment in the infrastructure so the passenger trains won’t be delayed. It is not criminal. What is more criminal is the government infringing on the rights of the Freight railroads and expecting a free ride without having to bear costs of infrastructure. Amtrak is subsidized passenger rail that doesn’t sustain a profit on many routes.

Amtrak has been funded and routes aren’t being cut now and I do see a lot of infrastructure work going on. I didn’t even realize the Texas Eagle is now using the TRE commuter tracks in Texas bypassing the UP tracks for a little while so there is definitely work going on to achieve the goal of additional trackage specific to passenger trains. This is what we need more of.

Freight trains can handle 1,000 train cars or more on a single set and can ship many different types of freight. The trains operate way more frequently than Amtrak trains which are usually much smaller. They also affect way more people who are dependent on the freight shipped. If Amtrak trains go faster then they should be able to bypass the freight trains with more infrastructure in place for such. Acca Yard used to take forever just for passenger trains to pass through the yard in Richmond, Virginia with 20-30 minute delays. Now Amtrak doesn’t have to deal with this. Delaware did added track work as well for a small stretch which helps trains there with added tracks and the like. Harold Interlocking will be improved with the Amtrak bypass which should be ready soon in NYC. In Arizona a grade crossing was removed which wasn’t far from an Amtrak station. Work seems to be constantly ongoing.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

However I do believe there needs to be more passenger tracks built and bypasses and crossovers and the like built so passenger trains won’t be affected as much as freight trains.

In the case you quoted what is needed is a flyover.

 

[Trogdor]

Where are they going to put those five or six freight trains to allow the Amtrak train to go through? Do they have a siding to hold five or six freight trains? Think it through before making blind assumptions. We don't know the facts. Thats all I'm saying.

If you’re referring to the discussion about the Michigan train being delayed between Chicago and Porter, the NS Line is double-track main line, and those trains could have held at Porter for the few minutes Amtrak went through (not even passing said freights) before turning off onto Amtrak’s own line.

 

[adamj023]

If you have two freight trains and an Amtrak train, the two freight trains should be on their own freight tracks, and Amtrak should have trackage that allows the Amtrak train to go around the freight train and get ahead when the freight trains are run slower than Amtrak trains.

CSX is doing work now and I notice the Amtrak trains crossing this route are delayed further than the announced delays on the service alerts but this is normal for Amtrak. CSX is a freight railroad that seems to be aggressively upgrading.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If you have two freight trains and an Amtrak train, the two freight trains should be on their own freight tracks, and Amtrak should have trackage that allows the Amtrak train to go around the freight train and get ahead when the freight trains are run slower than Amtrak trains.

CSX is doing work now and I notice the Amtrak trains crossing this route are delayed further than the announced delays on the service alerts but this is normal for Amtrak. CSX is a freight railroad that seems to be aggressively upgrading.

Railroads are just like highways.. you don’t build a brand new highway just because a greyhound bus and a ups truck both use the highway. I mean you can, but that’s usually not done.

What is done is lanes are added in congested areas as well as expensive flyovers.... that’s what needed in this example. A flyover. But that’s a very expensive solution and who pays for it? Amtrak? NS? State of Michigan (even though it’s in the state of Indiana).

It gets complicated.

 

[jis]

OTOH, highways have been built where no commercial traffic is allowed. So such is not unheard of.