$66 billion for Amtrak

[Devil's Advocate]

I have yet to see any real action to limit the amount of wasteful spending that Amtrak has been accused by the IG over a decade ago.

There was a lot of action to limit “wasteful” spending by John Mica and Richard Anderson and it resulted in some of the worst service Amtrak has ever sold. To be perfectly frank I’m glad they’re gone.

So, I feel like I can be as dour as I want to be about how my taxes are being spent and whether there's value gained for it.

Be as dour as you like but at least be upfront about it instead of mincing your words with doublespeak.

Mock me for my previous comment on the dining car being fully restored as not infrastructure, but one can suppose that if all this money is being spent on the infrastructure, then Amtrak's traditional $1.5B annual stipend (which is also used for infrastructure) can be allocated to operations. At least I can be dour about something without personally attacking individuals for their thoughts.

I did not mock any comments about dining cars being infrastructure.

 

[Larry H.]

What is puzzling is the emphasis that Amtrak puts on non revenue cars running up expenses. If the LD trains that could support many more passengers then the ratio of more passengers for the mainly 2 non revenue cars ( diner , Lounge , some BAGGAGES ) and some 3. Then why hasn't Amtrak pushed for more revenue rolling stock to support these non revenue cars. Have to recognize that some heavy use sleeper trains might require 2 diners but that would allow for at least one alternately to be open 24 hours a day.

I think there should be no fear of running none revenue cars to the length of the consist. When we took the Continental across Canada in the 70s we were in the last sleeper in a consist that was 22 passenger cars, not including the baggage and engines. I spotted a photo somewhere that showed the combined "City" trains of the Union Pacific coming into California. It had at least 38 cars from the countable passenger cars shown. Think how long a freight train is and that will pretty much remove any worry about passenger train lenght.

 

[MARC Rider]

Also, in "midwest, southeast, parts of the west coast, and Rocky Mountain Front Range", you left out Texas. The highest-ridership-potential city pair in the US which is totally unserved, going from metro area population data, is Dallas-Houston. Obviously Texas Central is trying to serve this. The Texas Eagle corridor through Texas also has huge potential from San Antonio to Dallas.

I consider Texas to be southeast, midwest, and southwest all at the same time. But, yes, Texas is a possible major market. The traffic on I-35 between the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex and San Antonio rivals anything on I-95 in the northeast. To get people out of their cars, they will need a train that can travel between Dallas and San Antonio in 6 hours, though.

 

[west point]

Buying the tracks off of them is the most plausible path I see for them. That will give the state governments who buy the tracks the power to pressure them into providing decent freight service and will give the same state governments the ability to simply order passenger service. And to the short-sighted execs, takes an expensive depreciating maintenance-intensive asset off their book and replaces it with a rental fee, which is the sort of thing these Wall Streeters have been trying to do to every company they get their hands on (as a means of cooking the books). So fundamentally they'll sell the tracks if the right offer is made to them.

Buying tracks has to have certain fences. Make a provision that all revenue from rentals are to be plowed back into all RRs owned or to buy more. track. Remember in the past the NC legislature tried to grab all the revenue from NS rentals of NCRR and put it into general revenue. Best way would be for a partial grant from the US DOT for purchases. A provision that all revenue be plowed back into rail purchases and improvements. Only say 20% of the cost of any grade crossing elimination could be used from revenue.. Highway revenues pay for rest.

 

[87YJ]

neroden:
Let me say "you do not live here I do" If you knew how fast Marcopa is growing and the 4 lane road going to PHX is overloaded. You would understand the need for a light rail line.
The time it would take to get the SL out of PHX on the east side would add time to the SL schedule. Around 45mins. & that could effect things with Amtrak.
Maybe they will use some of the 66B to light rail or get on with the Phoenix to Tucson line and everyone could ride to Tucson to get on.

 

[me_little_me]

Well, honestly, the top exec at Amtrak is brand new! Give Flynn a chance! People on the inside are saying very good things about him.

Sorry, I totally disagree. If I was an employee responsible for a disaster that Amtrak has done - failing to maintain cars in a ready state; failing to keep enough people employed with the Covid funds they got; failure to recognize the upward trend in travel in time - I would be fired in an instant much less if I had been employed as long as he has. Flynn has had sufficient time to do things right. He FAILED TO DO SO. Had Amtrak made brilliant decisions, he would have been suitably honored even if he perosonally disagreed with them and was proven wrong. So he has to take responsibility both for the failures of his company and his inability to lead them to success. He has been President since April of 2020.

 

[nti1094]

https://www.railpassengers.org/happ...n-the-senates-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill/

Yeah this section on remaking the composition of the Board of Directors is a game changer for Amtrak governance. There are going to be some amazing changes coming in the next few years.

 

[piedpiper]

I hope they use some of the $66 billion to upgrade and reopen the JAX-NOL portion of the Sunset Limited. A direct southern coast to coast is really needed.

 

[Chatter163]

I hope they use some of the $66 billion to upgrade and reopen the JAX-NOL portion of the Sunset Limited. A direct southern coast to coast is really needed.

Why not to Miami, as it originally was?

 

[Chatter163]

Sorry, I totally disagree. If I was an employee responsible for a disaster that Amtrak has done - failing to maintain cars in a ready state; failing to keep enough people employed with the Covid funds they got; failure to recognize the upward trend in travel in time - I would be fired in an instant much less if I had been employed as long as he has. Flynn has had sufficient time to do things right. He FAILED TO DO SO. Had Amtrak made brilliant decisions, he would have been suitably honored even if he perosonally disagreed with them and was proven wrong. So he has to take responsibility both for the failures of his company and his inability to lead them to success. He has been President since April of 2020.

Sorry, I totally disagree. I'm not sure where this fantastic world exists, where executives are "fired in an instant" in almost any circumstances, let alone 18 months into an unprecedented world crisis of complex political, social, and economic factors. This is hardly a typical situation, or one about which one may glibly make such a bold and sweeping assertion.

 

[Tlcooper44]

I hope they use some of the $66 billion to upgrade and reopen the JAX-NOL portion of the Sunset Limited. A direct southern coast to coast is really needed.

Completely disagree. There are about a dozen more pressing issues that need cash spent before extending the Sunset Limited. Perhaps daily service could be a starter.

Would it be nice? Yes. Should it be a spending priority? No.

 

[joelkfla]

I hope they use some of the $66 billion to upgrade and reopen the JAX-NOL portion of the Sunset Limited. A direct southern coast to coast is really needed.

I agree, but in prior discussions on this board the consensus has been that restoring that service is unlikely. Reasons given: track condition and meandering nature of the route make for a very long ride, and ownership of at least part of it has transferred to a short line. And it has not been an item on any long-range plans released by Amtrak.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I hope they use some of the $66 billion to upgrade and reopen the JAX-NOL portion of the Sunset Limited. A direct southern coast to coast is really needed.

Get NOL - Mobile up and running first as that is already in the pipeline. See how that works out before considering extending it.
As others have said there are more pressing issues / lower hanging fruit.
Intercity service in the Ohio area would be one for a start.

 

[jis]

Get NOL - Mobile up and running first as that is already in the pipeline. See how that works out before considering extending it.
As others have said there are more pressing issues / lower hanging fruit.
Intercity service in the Ohio area would be one for a start.

Indeed! It is worth noting that Mobile - JAX does not even make an appearance in the Amtrak/FRA 35 year plan, and FDOT would rather work on a West Coast of Florida Corridor which would serve orders of magnitude more people in Florida.

 

[sttom]

Sorry, I totally disagree. I'm not sure where this fantastic world exists, where executives are "fired in an instant" in almost any circumstances, let alone 18 months into an unprecedented world crisis of complex political, social, and economic factors. This is hardly a typical situation, or one about which one may glibly make such a bold and sweeping assertion.

This is just the double standard that gets enforced as you go up the food chain in an organization. If you're at the top, it's harder for your underlings to fire you since on some level they are culpable in whatever they'd want to fire you over. Another reason why companies don't fire their upper management is because theirbstock will tank and they can't have that no matter what (types with sarcasm). I know this isn't an issue for Amtrak, the issue would be a domino effect within the upper tiers of the organization should they fire Gardener or whomever.

 

[Chatter163]

This is just the double standard that gets enforced as you go up the food chain in an organization. If you're at the top, it's harder for your underlings to fire you since on some level they are culpable in whatever they'd want to fire you over. Another reason why companies don't fire their upper management is because theirbstock will tank and they can't have that no matter what (types with sarcasm). I know this isn't an issue for Amtrak, the issue would be a domino effect within the upper tiers of the organization should they fire Gardener or whomever.

I don't deny the validity of the factors that you cite, or the assertion that CEOs are particularly protected. However, in my experience, in both public and private sectors, there is a great reluctance to fire employees of various levels, not just management. There are many factors that cause this, fear of litigation being chief among them. In my working life in both the public and private sectors, I have seen scores of line employees that should have lost their jobs, but for various reasons, never did.

 

[PaulM]

FDOT would rather work on a West Coast of Florida Corridor which would serve orders of magnitude more people in Florida.

What does FDOT (I presume this is Florida Dept of Transportation) have in mind? I'd love to see frequent service between the northern edge of the Tampa Bay megopolis to Naples. But somehow I don't think that is what FDOT has in mind.

Also, what does "orders of magitude" mean? I've seen it used a lot, especially related to the DoD. But this math major has never seen it defined.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Also, what does "orders of magitude" mean? I've seen it used a lot, especially related to the DoD. But this math major has never seen it defined.

I think it means "a lot" in the context he was using.
The phrase is used in a comparison involving something either significantly smaller or larger.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I usually understand 'order of magnitude' to mean roughly X10, orders would be at least two so roughly X100. But it's often used loosely and for things that don't quantify very exactly. In other words, more than just a little more.

 

[CraigInNC]

Alaska's *very* interesting politically. It was solidly Democratic until the oil boom. Turned Republican due to oil, as far as I can tell. Now has the most "maverick", willing to fight the party leadership, Republicans in the country.

Yes Alaska drifted from D to R over the years but with that being said most Alaska pols wore their party labels a bit looser than most. Until the most recent hyperpartisan environment in Congress they often split their votes depending on the issue and how it affected the state. The same thing still happens in Juneau as I understand there are different groups in charge of the legislature and they contain both Ds and Rs. With that being said again Alaska's needs are very different than the lower 48 just like Hawaii is unique. In the old days there were things that were done on a party basis, things that were done on a regional basis, some were done due to personal interest. These days everything seems to be done on a national level and for or against the incumbent in the WH regardless of whether or not he legislation is useful. It is a sad situation especially for a younger person like myself that has the expectation to live another 40-50 years.

 

[Dakota 400]

These days everything seems to be done on a national level and for or against the incumbent in the WH regardless of whether or not he legislation is useful. It is a sad situation especially for a younger person like myself that has the expectation to live another 40-50 years.

Then, you "younger persons" need to start to work for a different direction. We, the People, and I include my generation, have sat on our hands for decades and have allowed this situation to develop.

Out of all the dysfunction that exists, will Amtrak survive? I hope so. The larger question, however, is will our country, our democracy survive?

 

[CraigInNC]

Then, you "younger persons" need to start to work for a different direction. We, the People, and I include my generation, have sat on our hands for decades and have allowed this situation to develop.

Out of all the dysfunction that exists, will Amtrak survive? I hope so. The larger question, however, is will our country, our democracy survive?

"We" are and I tend to think that the Biden/Trump duopoly will be the last of the Boomer(+) candidates and once the respective parties move on from those two it is almost certainly the candidates will be younger by 20 years or more. We seemed to currently be in a personality-driven environment rather than an issue-driven environment. With one party engaging in it more so than the other. This "hard" infrastructure bill is representative of that. When the Senate part passed in the summer it got a vote of 69-31 a vote more in line with what would be expected for such universally popular spending and in the past probably would have passed by an even larger margin and it is not inconceivable that a President from either party would have signed the bill. Yet by the time we got to the House vote we are now seeing "recriminations" for some who voted for it. Not necessarily because of what was in the bill but because it was signed by the "other" guy. I think Amtrak will survive at least for the foreseeable future. This money boosts that considerably and there are just enough elected from both parties to keep funding going. Plus the Amtrak fanbase and ridership is bipartisan.

As for your last part, yeah well I hope so. I served in the Air Force and hope to think my efforts were not in vain.

 

[JoshP]

I agree, but in prior discussions on this board the consensus has been that restoring that service is unlikely. Reasons given: track condition and meandering nature of the route make for a very long ride, and ownership of at least part of it has transferred to a short line. And it has not been an item on any long-range plans released by Amtrak.

huh? I'm confused, I though CSX repaired the tracks/bridges right after Katrina and it has been open since then but Amtrak used a excuses to say no money to restore it?

 

[Cal]

huh? I'm confused, I though CSX repaired the tracks/bridges right after Katrina and it has been open since then but Amtrak used a excuses to say no money to restore it?

They did, however 16 years in a long time. Since then, much of the line has been sold to a shortline who has very little reason to keep it at the same condition CSX did. And I've heard some of the line is dark as well.

 

[MIrailfan]

Add more sidingd/passing tracks. This would help with delays and allow bypassing of disabled freights.