A Different Sunset/Eagle Proposal?

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Exactly how much spare time is there between NOL and SAS? When I was on the Sunset from NOL-SAS and back last month, we were at least 15 mins early at every stop, 45 mins at Beaumont, 1hr 30 mins at Houston and nearly 2hrs early at SAS. Same on the return with an extra 1hr 45mins to spare into NOL, and the conductor said it wasn't the record.

I think in the end I ended up counting 4 hrs or so as spare time, if the day train happens how much of this could possibly come out? The tracks are in good enough condition for 79mph all the way, with slower speeds on the approaches to the bigger cities.

 

[henryj]

Exactly how much spare time is there between NOL and SAS? When I was on the Sunset from NOL-SAS and back last month, we were at least 15 mins early at every stop, 45 mins at Beaumont, 1hr 30 mins at Houston and nearly 2hrs early at SAS. Same on the return with an extra 1hr 45mins to spare into NOL, and the conductor said it wasn't the record.
I think in the end I ended up counting 4 hrs or so as spare time, if the day train happens how much of this could possibly come out? The tracks are in good enough condition for 79mph all the way, with slower speeds on the approaches to the bigger cities.

If the westbound train you were on left Beaumont at the scheduled time, there is no way you arrived at Houston 1hr 30min early. Beaumont to Houston is 82 miles according to the Amtrak timetable. Amtrak alots 2 hrs and 30 min for the trip. To arrive that early you would have to have made the trip in 60 minutes or an average of 82 miles an hour. So did Amtrak actually leave Beaumont early? Perhaps they had no passengers scheduled to board there and just left. But to get back to your original question, It is 363 miles from Houston to NOL. The fastest scheduled time I have ever seen was back in the 1950's when the SP carded the Sunset for 7 hours 50 min. The SAS to HOS time then was approx 4 hours for a distance of around 210 miles. The problem comes between NOL and Lafayette where there are many slow speed limits through the many small towns along the line and of course the slow speed getting over the Mississippi bridge. So I would think the best time you could hope for at this time would be around 12 hours for the NOL to SAS trip. Obviously, Amtrak has built a lot of padding into the schedule. But often time the Sunset is delayed in route by slow freights and congestion crossing the Mississippi. Between Houston and San Antonio I have often observed parked freights on at least half the sidings. That restricts where trains can meet resulting in delays. I have talked to freight crews that spent almost 12 hours trying to get from SAS to HOS. I think the train could easily make the route in the 12 hours if you could convince the UP dispatchers to run passenger trains as first class trains rather then just another freight train on the route. Between NOL and SAS the train averages 38mph. Between SAS and LAX the train averages 49mph. It lays over in SAS for over two hours. It also spends 50 minutes in Tucson. Down here people call the UP 'usually parked'.

 

[Guest]

Perhaps the poster meant dwell time henry? These extra long layovers seem to happen when the OTP is good on certain routes! I've spent 2 hours in HOS several times, the average is about an hour, even had an hour in Beaumont a couple of times!

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Amtrak service to Nashville was cut in 1970's when the CHI-MIA Floridian was discontinued. Many attempts by politicians to get back a Chicago to Florida train through Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga, and Atlanta have been rebuffed so I doubt NOL to Florida service will ever be reinstated. If a Chicago to Florida train existed through Nashville and Atlanta, New Orleans passengers could connect from the Crescent in Atlanta and go to Florida--or even come to Nashville. If we are going to dream, let's dream really big. Me--I am not expecting a beaurocratic Amtrak to ever consider this possibility not in my lifetime.

 

[AlanB]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

Ah, but St. Louis, while it might have a faster routing, would lose its one-seat ride. I'm sure there are St. Louisians who apparently adhere to the same retarded one-seat-ride philosphy that is building 34th St. and apparently helping convince you the Sunset is the proper train to go daily.

 

[AlanB]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

Ah, but St. Louis, while it might have a faster routing, would lose its one-seat ride. I'm sure there are St. Louisians who apparently adhere to the same retarded one-seat-ride philosphy that is building 34th St. and apparently helping convince you the Sunset is the proper train to go daily.

What convinces me about the Sunset is it's past numbers for the sleepers. Besides, St. Louis residents can still always wait for the Eagle's through cars.

 

[RTOlson]

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.
Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

You keep saying that, but isn't the fact of Amtrak's plan is for the communities along _both_ routes to get daily service? I concede that I'm very much an outside observer in this, but I believe Amtrak would make a whole lot more people happier by offering daily service to two routes' worth of people than what it would lose by some people kvetching about losing their sleeper service on the sole train between New Orleans and San Antonio.

While I think one-seat service is a good idea, I think most people accept the idea and reality that their routing may not permit such a thing. Nearly all of us are used to having to switch planes at a hub or switch trains in Chicago. As long as the transfers are kept to a minimum and are done safely and conveniently, I think most of us have little problem with it (although we would always _want_ non-stop or one-seat service).

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What convinces me about the Sunset is it's past numbers for the sleepers. Besides, St. Louis residents can still always wait for the Eagle's through cars.

Alan, would you mind itemizing carefuly and thoroughly all the reasons why you think this will work, and work better? Also, itemize all the reasons why you think a Texas Eagle being the daily through train would work better.

I think if you took a shot a playing devils advocate and arguing my point of view, you'd begin to see why I'm so stubborn in holding my opinion on this.

 

[Donctor]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

You're right. The "other cities" are losing nothing. They are gaining daily service.

 

[Donctor]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

Ah, but St. Louis, while it might have a faster routing, would lose its one-seat ride. I'm sure there are St. Louisians who apparently adhere to the same retarded one-seat-ride philosphy that is building 34th St. and apparently helping convince you the Sunset is the proper train to go daily.

What convinces me about the Sunset is it's past numbers for the sleepers. Besides, St. Louis residents can still always wait for the Eagle's through cars.

You and I appear to interpret the numbers very differently.

Regardless, the only way anyone will know is by looking at the ridership after the change occurs. People on both sides are stubborn, and neither can be proven 100% correct until after the restructuring.

 

[Guest]

Exactly how much spare time is there between NOL and SAS? When I was on the Sunset from NOL-SAS and back last month, we were at least 15 mins early at every stop, 45 mins at Beaumont, 1hr 30 mins at Houston and nearly 2hrs early at SAS. Same on the return with an extra 1hr 45mins to spare into NOL, and the conductor said it wasn't the record.
I think in the end I ended up counting 4 hrs or so as spare time, if the day train happens how much of this could possibly come out? The tracks are in good enough condition for 79mph all the way, with slower speeds on the approaches to the bigger cities.

If the westbound train you were on left Beaumont at the scheduled time, there is no way you arrived at Houston 1hr 30min early. Beaumont to Houston is 82 miles according to the Amtrak timetable. Amtrak alots 2 hrs and 30 min for the trip. To arrive that early you would have to have made the trip in 60 minutes or an average of 82 miles an hour. So did Amtrak actually leave Beaumont early? Perhaps they had no passengers scheduled to board there and just left. But to get back to your original question, It is 363 miles from Houston to NOL. The fastest scheduled time I have ever seen was back in the 1950's when the SP carded the Sunset for 7 hours 50 min. The SAS to HOS time then was approx 4 hours for a distance of around 210 miles. The problem comes between NOL and Lafayette where there are many slow speed limits through the many small towns along the line and of course the slow speed getting over the Mississippi bridge. So I would think the best time you could hope for at this time would be around 12 hours for the NOL to SAS trip. Obviously, Amtrak has built a lot of padding into the schedule. But often time the Sunset is delayed in route by slow freights and congestion crossing the Mississippi. Between Houston and San Antonio I have often observed parked freights on at least half the sidings. That restricts where trains can meet resulting in delays. I have talked to freight crews that spent almost 12 hours trying to get from SAS to HOS. I think the train could easily make the route in the 12 hours if you could convince the UP dispatchers to run passenger trains as first class trains rather then just another freight train on the route. Between NOL and SAS the train averages 38mph. Between SAS and LAX the train averages 49mph. It lays over in SAS for over two hours. It also spends 50 minutes in Tucson. Down here people call the UP 'usually parked'.

I've personally witness the Sunset do Beaumont to Houston in 1 hour 10 minutes. Well Beaumont to the east loop in 1 hour 10 minutes, which is only about 4 miles to

the Houston station.

 

[henryj]

I've personally witness the Sunset do Beaumont to Houston in 1 hour 10 minutes. Well Beaumont to the east loop in 1 hour 10 minutes, which is only about 4 miles tothe Houston station.

Yep, I have heard it makes the trip in around 90 minutes sometimes if there is no traffic which just shows how extreme the padding is in the current schedule. In the 1950's it was scheduled to do Houston to Beaumont in 1 hour 37 min. Amtrak has the eastbound #2 scheduled for 1 hour 55 min.

 

[jis]

Yep, I have heard it makes the trip in around 90 minutes sometimes if there is no traffic which just shows how extreme the padding is in the current schedule. In the 1950's it was scheduled to do Houston to Beaumont in 1 hour 37 min. Amtrak has the eastbound #2 scheduled for 1 hour 55 min.

Comparing the timings between 1979 and today between Beaumont and Houston I find that in '79 it was scheduled for 2'15" both ways. Today it is scheduled for 2'30" westbound and 1'55" eastbound. So clearly there is 35'+ padding eastbound. Surprisingly the westbound segment schedule is faster than in 1979! Interestingly in 1971 it was 2'43" westbound and 1'40" eastbound. So from that one could surmise that there is at least 15" padding eastbound today.

Apropos this issue of padding, though on a different route, in the current (June) issue of Railpace Magazine it is mentioned that on April 9 this year after taking massive delays on the NEC due to signal failure, #19 which took a delay of 3hr 30min, arrived in NOL recovering 2hr 16min, and #97 took a delay of 3hr 04min and arrived MIA recovering 2hr 14min. On the way #19 averaged 60mph including 2 stops between Greensboro and Charlotte on NCR (ex-NS), a feat that, according to the writer, could not have been achieved in the pre-Amtrak days. #97 on that run did better than 70mph start to stop on the segments Florence - Kingstree, Jesup - Jacksonville, Winter Haven - Sebring, and Sebring - West Palm Beach on the much maligned CSX no less! Must have been a heck of a run! So it looks like at some places trains can do better time than in the heyday or railroading even on the LD routes. Also all that this illustrates is the enormous lack of consistency that is observed in running times from one day to another, which Amtrak has to accommodate in their schedules.

Meanwhile it is reported in PTJ 2010:2 that host railroad payments have been climbing at Amtrak due to more on time incentive payments. This is a proxy for on time running and its increase is a good news, assuming that the rates for payments have not been changed, which I don't believe have been changed indeed.

 

[Ozark Southern]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

Ah, but St. Louis, while it might have a faster routing, would lose its one-seat ride. I'm sure there are St. Louisians who apparently adhere to the same retarded one-seat-ride philosphy that is building 34th St. and apparently helping convince you the Sunset is the proper train to go daily.

What convinces me about the Sunset is it's past numbers for the sleepers. Besides, St. Louis residents can still always wait for the Eagle's through cars.

They can, or if leaving for LAX on a particular date is important and not having checked baggage service isn't a problem, there are two daily MORR trains that will connect to the SWC in KCY.

Personally, I'd rather have three-day service to cities that currently are not connected than to have daily service to places that are already connected three times weekly. Currently, the most direct route for me to get to Florida involves going through CHI and WAS and lasts 58 hours. I don't mind the trip taking a little longer on the train than driving, for reasons I know we all share. But when it takes 20 hours to drive and 58 to take the train, I'm losing a day and a half each way--three days total--of my vacation time that I'd really rather spend in Miami. So I'd greatly prefer the Sunset East Limited to a Sunset West daily.

 

[henryj]

I've personally witness the Sunset do Beaumont to Houston in 1 hour 10 minutes. Well Beaumont to the east loop in 1 hour 10 minutes, which is only about 4 miles tothe Houston station.

On thing that is not obvious from looking at the timetables is the effect of the UP mergers. The UP now has two routes between Houston and Beaumont, the old SP route which is the one reflected in the Amtrak timetable and the old MP route. The UP runs the routes directionally so the Sunset often takes the MP route in one direction. The distance for the MP route is slightly longer at 89 miles and the fastest time I could find looking at old timetables for that route is 2 hours and 10 minutes. Additionally, the MP route comes into Houston from a different direction north of the SP route and the train has to negotiate several different junctions to get to the Amtrak station. This could account for the different timings we see in the timetable and the variations in the actual station to station times that occur.

 

[Donctor]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

Ah, but St. Louis, while it might have a faster routing, would lose its one-seat ride. I'm sure there are St. Louisians who apparently adhere to the same retarded one-seat-ride philosphy that is building 34th St. and apparently helping convince you the Sunset is the proper train to go daily.

What convinces me about the Sunset is it's past numbers for the sleepers. Besides, St. Louis residents can still always wait for the Eagle's through cars.

They can, or if leaving for LAX on a particular date is important and not having checked baggage service isn't a problem, there are two daily MORR trains that will connect to the SWC in KCY.

Personally, I'd rather have three-day service to cities that currently are not connected than to have daily service to places that are already connected three times weekly. Currently, the most direct route for me to get to Florida involves going through CHI and WAS and lasts 58 hours. I don't mind the trip taking a little longer on the train than driving, for reasons I know we all share. But when it takes 20 hours to drive and 58 to take the train, I'm losing a day and a half each way--three days total--of my vacation time that I'd really rather spend in Miami. So I'd greatly prefer the Sunset East Limited to a Sunset West daily.

Alright. But the "Sunset East" isn't a Florida train. It's a San Antonio–New Orleans train.

That is, unless someone pays for Florida service.

 

[Ozark Southern]

As a native Louisianian now living in Nashville, TN, for 44+ years, it seems that the arguers for daily NOL - LAX Sunset instead of Amtrak's recommended CHI-SAS-LAX daily Texas Eagle are simply arguing "don't take my train" which basically serves a much smaller populated New Orleans and Houston as opposed to Chicago, St. Louis, Little Rock, Dallas/FW and Austin. When you add passengers from the Heartland Flyer you also add Oklahoma City to the Texas Eagle mix. As I see it, the daily coach train SAS-NOL is the appropriate feeder for the daily Texas Eagle to and from LAX.

Chicago & St. Louis already have a faster, more direct route to LA and therefore don't count in the greater scheme of things here.

Additionally, the other cities served already have direct service to/from LA 3 days a week anyhow. So they are losing nothing.

Ah, but St. Louis, while it might have a faster routing, would lose its one-seat ride. I'm sure there are St. Louisians who apparently adhere to the same retarded one-seat-ride philosphy that is building 34th St. and apparently helping convince you the Sunset is the proper train to go daily.

What convinces me about the Sunset is it's past numbers for the sleepers. Besides, St. Louis residents can still always wait for the Eagle's through cars.

They can, or if leaving for LAX on a particular date is important and not having checked baggage service isn't a problem, there are two daily MORR trains that will connect to the SWC in KCY.

Personally, I'd rather have three-day service to cities that currently are not connected than to have daily service to places that are already connected three times weekly. Currently, the most direct route for me to get to Florida involves going through CHI and WAS and lasts 58 hours. I don't mind the trip taking a little longer on the train than driving, for reasons I know we all share. But when it takes 20 hours to drive and 58 to take the train, I'm losing a day and a half each way--three days total--of my vacation time that I'd really rather spend in Miami. So I'd greatly prefer the Sunset East Limited to a Sunset West daily.

Alright. But the "Sunset East" isn't a Florida train. It's a San Antonio–New Orleans train.

That is, unless someone pays for Florida service.

I'm learning I have to be exact on my terminology around here. I meant the part of the Sunset east of NOL that has been canceled.

 

[Greg]

In my specific case I'd benefit more from daily operation than from opening up the track east of NOL. However, I must admit that of the Texans who leave the state they tend to go two places. One of them is Las Vegas and the other is Orlando. I happen to think they're crazy but that's where they go. If Amtrak could get some sort of Disney consist going it could end up being their most lucrative train ever. I'm kind of surprised they haven't had this for decades now.

I think with the oil spill and the effect on the gulf states, now would be the perfect time to reinstate passenger rail service between New Orleans and Florida

I really don't follow you?

Just saying that it would be an economic and emotional shot in the arm for a battered area.