A new Super Chief

[norfolkwesternhenry]

Are there any plans for a private/ other Amtrak trains that could travel the original SC route, with the level of service being just as good/ better than before?

 

[Anthony V]

Unfortunately, that is a HUGE pipe dream given the current environment of passenger rail in the USA.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Check this thread for previous discussion:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64161-routing-of-a-canadian-style-cross-country-train-under-amtrak/page-2?hl=warrington

Meanwhile, back in the day, Amtrak CEO George Warrington (1988-1992), promoted a plan (market-based strategy or some such name) to expand Amtrak coverage. He wanted to add express freight service and hitch a few passenger cars on new express runs like Louisville and Fond-du-Lac, WI. The announced plan was gonna include a thru train NYC-L.A., tho I suspect that may have been what today is called click bait. Anyway, the whole express thing collapsed and Mr Warrington moved on to other opportunities elsewhere (Jersey Transit).

I like the idea of a premium train to be Amtrak's flagship. But on my list of where money (and political energy) needs to be spent, it's way waaay down the priorities list.

 

[KmH]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.

what about buisness travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA, or business men travelling to big cities, without access to a big airport, and at a lower cost, because intermediate stops are of little extra cost to a train, where an airplane would take more than a week to fly from each station stop on the SWC, where currently it takes ~46H.

 

[CCC1007]

WMA is a small town, FLG has an existing thruway bus to Phoenix.

While business travelers would make a good demographic for Amtrak, trains simply are not in their equations, especially long distance trains.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

I was using it as an example for a small town with a very small airport

 

[jphjaxfl]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.

what about buisness travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA, or business men travelling to big cities, without access to a big airport, and at a lower cost, because intermediate stops are of little extra cost to a train, where an airplane would take more than a week to fly from each station stop on the SWC, where currently it takes ~46H.

I traveled on business for many years. Unfortunately except on a few routes, Amtrak is not set up for business travel. Business Travel works on the Northeast Corridor, the Surfliner route, The Capitol Corridor and maybe some Midwestern corridors. I have used the Crescent from Washington to Atlanta and Silver Meteor from the Northeast to Jacksonville for business, but it was usually more expensive than flying so I had to pay for the Sleeper Accommodations out of my own pocket. I wish the US had train service comparable to Europe, Japan and a few other places where business travel by train was practical.

 

[west point]

The Super Chief brand name is owned by Santa Fe and successors and required Amtrak to drop that name due to substandard service. Allow name ? Forget it ! !

 

[jis]

Amtrak was forced to forego the use of the word "Chief" in the name of their train for a while.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Amtrak was forced to forego the use of the word "Chief" in the name of their train for a while.

Yep, the Southwest Ltd.didnt have the same glamour of the famous Super Chief!

I also thought that the El Capitan,Santa Fe's Crack All Hi-Level Coach Train (that became Amtraks PPCs on the Coast Starlight) and that ran a similar Schedule between CHI and LAX, was an excellent name also!

Does BNSF still own that name also??

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), ... Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders. ...

what about business travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA,

WMA? Wherezat?

You lost me. Some of the cool kids like to use code, but I don't get it, so I get left out. And I'm sure not the only one.

 

[CCC1007]

WMA is Williams, Arizona.

 

[Northeastern292]

About the only new Super Chief I see happening (and even this is a pipe dream) is for the Southwest Chief to get new equipment and a second diner (a budget diner), but as for the second diner, even that's a pipe dream, especially with the GOP's obsession over making F&B profitable (which while should have losses minimized, shouldn't have service sacrificed as IIRC traditionally the pre-Amtrak trains lost money with F&B (even back in the glory days pre-1950).

 

[Seaboard92]

The only route I could see doing well with an all sleeper train would honestly be the Silver Meteor. It currently runs with three sleepers. And I think one time I've seen it with four. And capacity on them seems to be pretty full. But I'm not convinced that an all sleeper train would work.

 

[neroden]

Yes, there were a few all-sleeper trains historically, but they typically had coach trains chasing their tails on the same route and almost the same timetable.

The only reason to make an all-sleeper train is if your coach-and-sleeper train has gotten too long for the platforms! Otherwise, it never hurts to add a coach...

 

[west point]

If Amtrak ever had enough equipment ( realize it never will ) then a sleeper train might work.

How ?

Using the Meteor as an example. During heavy travel periods

Book sleeper passengers from NYP - WASH ( receive only ) to destinations Winter park / Orlando - MIA in certain cars

Once enough cars booked including coach plan a separate train of sleepers only that would run on Meteor schedule NYP - WASH. Coach 5 minutes behind.

Train would then run scheduled non stop WASH - Florence ( crew and servicing change as already done for auto train ) - Winter Park / Orlando ( crew change ) - MIA discharge only. Maybe even cut off sleepers for Tampa ?

Sleeper train probably would arrive MIA as much as 2+ hours earlier than coach section.

Note NYP - ATL might be another good route

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

It's also impossible to do the original Super Chief route because San Bernardino CA to Los Angeles CA got broken and turned into Metro Gold Line so that section will be via Fullerton.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.

what about business travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA, or business [men] ...

Unfortunately, except on a few routes, Amtrak is not set up for business travel. Business Travel works on the Northeast Corridor, the Surfliner route, The Capitol Corridor and maybe some Midwestern corridors.

I'm sure the Hiawatha has many business people.

Looking back at the big Stimulus projects that will kick in by next summer's deadline, they're all corridor-building projects that should increase business-related trips.

The Cascades not that long ago had a 60% on time performance. To get the Stimulus money for upgrades, WADOT signed a promise to raise the OTP to 88%, to add two more frequencies (from 4 plus the Coast Starlight to 6 plus the Starlight), and to shave 10 minutes off the Seattle-Portland run. In another thread, the WADOT reveals plans to make the first departure 1:30 earlier, at 6.m., to arrive Portland 9:30ish. The last departure will be moved back to 7ish, iirc. Vice versa Portland-Seattle. The intention is to allow same-day, go-and-return trips between the big cities to appeal to business travelers.

The Lincoln route, St Louis-CHI, will get many more business riders after the end-to-end trip time drops by about an hour. It already gets some business riders for the intermediate cities -- especially Springfield and Bloomington/Normal -- but will get more soon. It's now 4 Lincolns plus the Texas Eagle, will be 5 or 6 or 7 Lincolns plus the Eagle (the new schedule has not been made public.)

The Wolverines route is also due to get much better timetables, about 40 or 50 minutes faster. The time savings won't help as much going to CHI, because all the upgrades are Kalamazoo-Detroit, and DET-CHI will still be 5 hours. But already there are business travelers to/from Battle Creek, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, DET, and its northern suburbs where the 45 minutes saved will count for something.

North Carolina will cut the trip times Charlotte-Raleigh and add another frequency or two, including an earlier morning departure, aiming to gain more business travelers.

New York's Albany station revamping, double-tracking, and new signaling near the capitol city will reduce delays and improve on time performance, bringing even more business travelers to the Empire Corridor.

In Connecticut, the New Haven-Hartford-Springfield Shuttle route is being rebuilt as a commuter line with more frequencies and faster times. Lots more business people will ride this segment after the upgrades are done.

And Virginia is using Stimulus funds to add another track, rebuild a bridge, etc to take 10 minutes out of the time D.C.-Richmond. Now, as reported in another thread, VA won a grant for an added 14 miles of track in the same corridor. The Richmond trains haven't done quite as well as the Lynchburger and the Norfolk train, but a faster trip will get more business riders here too.

Not a Stimulus project, but the San Joaquin recently added a 7th train. An earlier start and some upgrades and tweaking the right of way will have it arrive in Oakland earlier than the current schedules, appealing to some with business in the Bay Area or vice versa in the Central Valley. Estimating 186,000 ridership for the 7th train that started last month, some of those will be business travelers. An 8th frequency is under preparation, with the idea of starting early morning in mid-Valley, rather than waiting for the first train out of Bakersfield to reach the several mid-Valley cities, thereby reaching the Bay Area even earlier and attracting more business riders.

Demonstrating again that the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Particularly for day trains. They're great.

 

[zephyr17]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.

what about buisness travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA, or business men travelling to big cities, without access to a big airport, and at a lower cost, because intermediate stops are of little extra cost to a train, where an airplane would take more than a week to fly from each station stop on the SWC, where currently it takes ~46H.

Business travelers WERE the Super Chief's target demographic. Santa Fe maintained the quality and speed of the service right to the end and business travelers deserted in droves.

No business traveler is going to spend the time to take the train when they can fly from LA to Albuquerque (a much better example than Williams, which is not exactly known as a business hub) or Chicago to Kansas CIty in a couple of hours. Also corporate travel departments will not pay for first class fares, which a Super Chief would be. If a business traveler wanted to get to, say, La Junta, that is what Hertz is for. Fly into Denver or maybe Colorado Springs and pick up a car.

Forget business travelers. For anything outside corridor services of 500 miles or less, they are gone for good. The speed of air travel trumped rail in the 1950s for business travel and it isn't coming back. Chicago-Kansas City is on the outer edge what a business traveler might consider if there was corridor service with relatively frequent, fast and reliable service, but a resurrected Super Chief, no.

I have taken Amtrak for business trips on a couple of occasions and in order to do it, I had to pay the accommodation charges myself (no first class, remember?) take personal days, and struggled with the Finance department that is wholly oriented towards airlines and doesn't understand rail fare structures to get reimbursed. It was a lot of hassle, worth it, but a lot of hassle.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.

what about buisness travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA, or business men travelling to big cities, without access to a big airport, and at a lower cost, because intermediate stops are of little extra cost to a train, where an airplane would take more than a week to fly from each station stop on the SWC, where currently it takes ~46H.

Business travelers WERE the Super Chief's target demographic. Santa Fe maintained the quality and speed of the service right to the end and business travelers deserted in droves.
No business traveler is going to spend the time to take the train when they can fly from LA to Albuquerque (a much better example than Williams, which is not exactly known as a business hub) or Chicago to Kansas CIty in a couple of hours. Also corporate travel departments will not pay for first class fares, which a Super Chief would be. If a business traveler wanted to get to, say, La Junta, that is what Hertz is for. Fly into Denver or maybe Colorado Springs and pick up a car.

Forget business travelers. For anything outside corridor services of 500 miles or less, they are gone for good. The speed of air travel trumped rail in the 1950s for business travel and it isn't coming back. Chicago-Kansas City is on the outer edge what a business traveler might consider if there was corridor service with relatively frequent, fast and reliable service, but a resurrected Super Chief, no.

I have taken Amtrak for business trips on a couple of occasions and in order to do it, I had to pay the accommodation charges myself (no first class, remember?) take personal days, and struggled with the Finance department that is wholly oriented towards airlines and doesn't understand rail fare structures to get reimbursed. It was a lot of hassle, worth it, but a lot of hassle.

100% agreement.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

In that case, HSR is the way to go, 220 MPH will beat an airplane from short to medium distances, like CHI-MSP, a route that I live at the MSP end of.

On a plane, you catch a train from downtown to the airport, (30 min), go through security (30-45 min), wait for your plane (60-90 min), board (10 min), taxi to the runway (5-15 min), takeoff (10 min) cruise (30 min) decend (15 min), land (5 min), get off (5-10 min), walk/ take tram to airport exit (10-20 min), catch the (MSP) blue line to downtown MPLS (15 min), and if you want to go to St. Paul, catch the green line.

total CHI-MPLS (225-295 min)

On a train you get to the train station (10-30 min), wait for boarding (10-30 min), board (10 min), go to St. Paul, (180 min) get off (5 min), and if you want to go MPLS, catch the green line to MPLS.

total CHI-MSP HSR:205-255 min

This applies to many situations,

SAS AUS DFW

HOU DFW

CHI STL KCY

CHI MKE Madison Lacro, Roch, MSP

San Diego LAX San Louis Ob. SFO

WAS BAL PHL NYP NHV PVD BOS

and many more, I am a little iffy on abbreviations, hopefully you can make sense of them

 

[CCC1007]

In that case, HSR is the way to go, 220 MPH will beat an airplane from short to medium distances, like CHI-MSP, a route that I live at the MSP end of.

On a plane, you catch a train from downtown to the airport, (30 min), go through security (30-45 min), wait for your plane (60-90 min), board (10 min), taxi to the runway (5-15 min), takeoff (10 min) cruise (30 min) decend (15 min), land (5 min), get off (5-10 min), walk/ take tram to airport exit (10-20 min), catch the (MSP) blue line to downtown MPLS (15 min), and if you want to go to St. Paul, catch the green line.

total CHI-MPLS (225-295 min)

On a train you get to the train station (10-30 min), wait for boarding (10-30 min), board (10 min), go to St. Paul, (180 min) get off (5 min), and if you want to go MPLS, catch the green line to MPLS.

total CHI-MSP HSR:205-255 min

This applies to many situations,

SAS AUS DFW

HOU DFW

CHI STL KCY

CHI MKE Madison Lacro, Roch, MSP

San Diego LAX San Louis Ob. SFO

WAS BAL PHL NYP NHV PVD BOS

and many more, I am a little iffy on abbreviations, hopefully you can make sense of them

Have you done any research into which corridors are already set up for trips like this?
WAS to NYP already has semi-highspeed in the form of the NER and Acela, and the California HSR is already under construction.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

In that case, HSR is the way to go, 220 MPH will beat an airplane from short to medium distances, like CHI-MSP, a route that I live at the MSP end of.

On a plane, you catch a train from downtown to the airport, (30 min), go through security (30-45 min), wait for your plane (60-90 min), board (10 min), taxi to the runway (5-15 min), takeoff (10 min) cruise (30 min) decend (15 min), land (5 min), get off (5-10 min), walk/ take tram to airport exit (10-20 min), catch the (MSP) blue line to downtown MPLS (15 min), and if you want to go to St. Paul, catch the green line.

total CHI-MPLS (225-295 min)

On a train you get to the train station (10-30 min), wait for boarding (10-30 min), board (10 min), go to St. Paul, (180 min) get off (5 min), and if you want to go MPLS, catch the green line to MPLS.

total CHI-MSP HSR:205-255 min

This applies to many situations,

SAS AUS DFW

HOU DFW

CHI STL KCY

CHI MKE Madison Lacro, Roch, MSP

San Diego LAX San Louis Ob. SFO

WAS BAL PHL NYP NHV PVD BOS

and many more, I am a little iffy on abbreviations, hopefully you can make sense of them

Have you done any research into which corridors are already set up for trips like this?
WAS to NYP already has semi-highspeed in the form of the NER and Acela, and the California HSR is already under construction.

no research, well nit much, just a few feasibility reports, but some of these are perfect candidates for rails up construction, with many supporters, but not enough, in most cases