A plan for improving Amtrak Southeast service

[WICT106]

Part of any plan to improve service should include: straightening of curves, flattening of inclines, more straightaway track. Use Eminent Domain powers if necessary (and believe you me, it will be necessary at some point in time). IF the RRs are reluctant to upgrade their track to FRA class 5 or better, then at least provide funding so that the track will allow for as high an average speed as FRA class 4 track regime will allow.

Also: before adding any additional routes, let's see if we can increase the frequency of service for the routes that are already in existence.

 

[GG-1]

These are the same issues that have been discussed over and over on this forum, so I think Eric's statement borders on the ridiculous - and I know he knows better.

Mahalo for the vote of confidence, possibly in another message Joel Webber said it better. But Still I can not feel that Amtrak does all that it can to operate a passenger Railroad. I know that I haven't all the answers, but just in the way cancellations sometime occur, and the Bus substitutions. Then again, Does these upper management people do all they can to convince both the public, and therefore the funding sources, to back their decisions.

Some years ago I found it difficult to buy a seat on the Broadway limited, yet it got canceled for lack of ridership.

The Desert Wind was always close to capacity, yet it's schedule to Los Vegas wasn't the most convent. Why was it canceled. officially to get California an Los Vegas to partially fund the route.

How does anyone trully explaine a feeling? I work in theater. I canot explaine how much energy and feeling I get when the Audience enjoys the show. A number of years ago a local newspaper critic called, in 1/2inch letters, the Sesaeme Street Show "Childish and Imature", In the Review was a picture of some 6 year old, in extasy. That image is the reason I do my job. I want to beleive the People an Amtrak are that dedicateed to their's. I am sorry but I dont.

But I also feel the Majority of them are fantastic employees, again the wrong few are not. And I still probably haven't explained my feeling adequately.

Aloha

 

[had8ley]

These are the same issues that have been discussed over and over on this forum, so I think Eric's statement borders on the ridiculous - and I know he knows better.

Mahalo for the vote of confidence, possibly in another message Joel Webber said it better. But Still I can not feel that Amtrak does all that it can to operate a passenger Railroad. I know that I haven't all the answers, but just in the way cancellations sometime occur, and the Bus substitutions. Then again, Does these upper management people do all they can to convince both the public, and therefore the funding sources, to back their decisions.

Some years ago I found it difficult to buy a seat on the Broadway limited, yet it got canceled for lack of ridership.

The Desert Wind was always close to capacity, yet it's schedule to Los Vegas wasn't the most convent. Why was it canceled. officially to get California an Los Vegas to partially fund the route.

How does anyone trully explaine a feeling? I work in theater. I canot explaine how much energy and feeling I get when the Audience enjoys the show. A number of years ago a local newspaper critic called, in 1/2inch letters, the Sesaeme Street Show "Childish and Imature", In the Review was a picture of some 6 year old, in extasy. That image is the reason I do my job. I want to beleive the People an Amtrak are that dedicateed to their's. I am sorry but I dont.

But I also feel the Majority of them are fantastic employees, again the wrong few are not. And I still probably haven't explained my feeling adequately.

Aloha

No Eric, your past posts have indicated how you feel. You are not alone in your feelings towards some of the backwards ways that Amtrak is run. You reminded me of the time I carried two "Dream Come True" kids on my back the length of a 12 business car special. If you could have seen their eyes light up when they were able to ride the engine. This was in

early fall. I found out later that one boy died Christmas Eve and the other the day after Christmas. I will never forget the looks on their faces when they boarded both the train and the engines; somehow you can't ever put those events in life to rest.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Part of any plan to improve service should include: straightening of curves, flattening of inclines, more straightaway track. Use Eminent Domain powers if necessary (and believe you me, it will be necessary at some point in time). IF the RRs are reluctant to upgrade their track to FRA class 5 or better, then at least provide funding so that the track will allow for as high an average speed as FRA class 4 track regime will allow.
Also: before adding any additional routes, let's see if we can increase the frequency of service for the routes that are already in existence.

Actually, successful HSR systems often seem to have steeper grades than a lot of the freight track in the US. There's always going to be a tradeoff between tight curves, steep grades, and having to spend lots of money on tunnels and bridges when you're on terrain that isn't flat for miles around, and it turns out that high speed passenger rail tolerates grades better than heavy freight.

I think that:

1) freight mainlines tend to be pretty saturated

2) If we had double track rights of way dedicated to passenger service (with a little express freight thrown in as track capacity allows) where we could attract enough passengers (which probably requires high speeds) we could probably keep those tracks reasonably saturated with passenger trains

I see no reason why building new high speed passenger track should be delayed while there are negotiations with freight railroads about minor upgrades.

If you want useful negotiations with freight railroads, those ought to focus on rights of way that are useful for commuter rail, such as two of the MARC lines, both VRE lines, and the MBTA's Worcester Line.

 

[George Harris]

Let us not forget, ALL countries that have had successful high speed rail had good if not overwhelming ridership on the passenger trains that already had. That will also be true for California, particularly considering that the current seven times a day rail from San Francisco to Los Angeles requires a bus on both ends of all but one, and that is either Caltrain (not advertized, even) or a bus on the SF end only of the the Coast Starlight, the most erratic of the bunch.

 

[TampAGS]

•New daily Southerner service between San Antonio and Atlanta via Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, and Montgomery; Thruway bus connection from Atmore to Pensacola for connection with train #110 to Florida.•New daily Gulf Wind service between New Orleans and Miami via Mobile, Tallahassee, Jacksonville, and Orlando; Connections with trains #1/2/58/59 in New Orleans; Services the Gulf Coast during more reasonable times than previous service offered.

•New daily Sunset Limited service between Los Angeles and New Orleans; Connections with trains #62/63 in New Orleans for Mobile, Orlando, Miami, and all intermediate stops.

•New three-times-weekly Sunshine State service between Orlando and Pensacola via Jacksonville, with Thruway bus connection out of Pensacola for connection with train #120 to Montgomery/Atlanta.

•Expanded Amtrak service for the key markets of Atlanta and Houston

•New, faster service between Atlanta and Florida offered three times weekly

Train #119/120

The Southerner

•San Antonio - Houston – New Orleans – Mobile – Montgomery – Atlanta

•Daily departures

•Connects with trains #19/20 in Atlanta for points North

•Amtrak Thruway Bus connection from Atmore station to Pensacola for connections with trains 110/111 to Florida three times weekly

•Equipment: Superliner Coaches (2), Cross Country Café (1), Superliner Sleeping car (1)

Note: To avoid overlap, passengers traveling between NOL-ATL/ATL-NOL only will be encouraged to use trains 19/20; Trains 119/120 are available for booking NOL-ATL / ATL-NOL but with a higher fare bucket. Passengers traveling between NOL and all stops prior to ATL are excluded from this.

Train #62/63

The Gulf Wind

•New Orleans – Mobile – Tallahassee – Jacksonville – Orlando - Miami

•Daily departures

•Connects with trains #1/2/58/59 in New Orleans

•Equipment: Amfleet 2 coaches (3), Amfleet Diner/Lounge, Viewliner Sleeping car; Checked baggage service available.

Train #110/111

The Sunshine State

•Orlando – Jacksonville – Tallahassee – Pensacola

•Three weekly departures

•Amtrak Thruway Bus connection from Pensacola to Atmore for connections to/from trains 119/120.

•Connections to/from Silver Service trains in Orlando to/from South Florida

•Equipment: Amfleet 2 coaches (2), Florida Business Class, Cafe

I'm all for increasing service to and within Florida and the rest of the south, but it seems like many of your proposed routes terminate prematurely in Orlando. Tampa Union Station sees the third highest number of passengers in the state, falling only behind Sanford and Orlando. Tampa surpasses Miami by nearly 25% of their total ridership. This was the case last year despite the fact that Tampa only receives two trains a day, versus the four daily trains visiting Miami and nearly every other Florida station.

Add to this the fact that during the last fiscal year, Tampa posted the highest growth in the state. Ridership to/from Tampa increased by 33.5%, which is more than double the average growth for Florida as a whole, and more than triple the gain seen nationwide. I think any plans for expanded service must include more Tampa trains.

I wish I could say I contributed to this growth personally, but I only discovered Amtrak in September, just prior to their fiscal year's end. For the remainder of the calendar year, though, I averaged one trip a week.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I'm all for increasing service to and within Florida and the rest of the south, but it seems like many of your proposed routes terminate prematurely in Orlando. Tampa Union Station sees the third highest number of passengers in the state, falling only behind Sanford and Orlando. Tampa surpasses Miami by nearly 25% of their total ridership. This was the case last year despite the fact that Tampa only receives two trains a day, versus the four daily trains visiting Miami and nearly every other Florida station.

I'm pretty convinced that between the number of cities in Florida, some of which aren't even served by Amtrak at all currently, and the number of places one might want to go to from those various Florida cities, having at least 20 trains entering Florida and 20 trains leaving Florida every hour during the day could work very well if the trains were fast enough to attract large enough fractions of automobile and airplane users.

 

[TampAGS]

I'm all for increasing service to and within Florida and the rest of the south, but it seems like many of your proposed routes terminate prematurely in Orlando. Tampa Union Station sees the third highest number of passengers in the state, falling only behind Sanford and Orlando. Tampa surpasses Miami by nearly 25% of their total ridership. This was the case last year despite the fact that Tampa only receives two trains a day, versus the four daily trains visiting Miami and nearly every other Florida station.

I'm pretty convinced that between the number of cities in Florida, some of which aren't even served by Amtrak at all currently, and the number of places one might want to go to from those various Florida cities, having at least 20 trains entering Florida and 20 trains leaving Florida every hour during the day could work very well if the trains were fast enough to attract large enough fractions of automobile and airplane users.

Amtrak's intrastate fares are certainly more competitive than any offered by the airlines, especially when booking at the last minute. I would think that if the right city connections were in place and adequate publicity was employed, Amtrak could capture a significant portion of the airlines' intrastate business. The only people for whom rail would not seem the better option would be those that are in an über-hurry. But that all depends on how fast the trains would run.

The automobile crowd would be a tougher sell. Going from A to B on a train may be easy enough, but beyond the station, getting to A.a or B.b may be next to impossible without a car given our present intracity transit infrastucture.

 

[Bane]

I was amazed to hear Grehound's fare to ride from New Orleans to Atlanta~ $78 ONE WAY on Mondays through Thursdays and $84 on the week-ends (almost equal to the airlines lowest fare). What more incentive does Amtrak need? I guess my knocking at Amtrak's door needs to change into a battering ram. Here we go...

Can you imagine the HUB ATL could be if there was also service to Jacksonville, Memphis, and Cincinnati? They place would be booming!

And Nashville right :-D

 

[NativeSon5859]

Here are some of the "proposed" times I came up with. Some of the city codes are not right but I'm sure you'll recognize what they are.

#120 (SAS-HOS-NOL-ATL)

Dp. SAS 3:15p

Ar. HOS 8:05p

Dp. HOS 8:35p

BPT 10:30p

LCH 11:54p

LFT 1:38a

NEI 2:05a

SRV 3:25a

Ar. NOL 6:15a

Dp. NOL 7:00a

BSL 8:13a

GPT 8:35a

BXI 8:48a

PSC 9:13a

MOE 10:10a

ATM 11:00a

EVG 12:15p

GRV 1:15p

Ar. MGM 2:00p

Dp. MGM 2:15p

Ar. ATL 7:00p

#119 (ATL-NOL-HOS-SAS)

Ar. SAS 2:00p

Dp. HOS 9:05a

Ar. HOS 8:40a

BPT 6:02a

LCH 4:15a

LFT 2:36a

NEI 2:09a

SRV 12:35a

Dp. NOL 11:00p

Ar. NOL 10:00p

BSL 7:52p

GPT 7:30p

BXI 7:17p

PSC 6:52p

MOE 5:55p

ATM 5:05p

EVG 3:50p

GRV 2:50p

Dp. MGM 2:05p

Ar. MGM 1:50p

Dp. ATL 11:05a

#62 (NOL-JAX-ORL-MIA)

Dp. NOL 5:30p

BSL 6:43p

GPT 7:05p

BXI 7:18p

PSC 7:43p

MOE 8:33p

ATM 9:20p

Ar. PNS 11:10p

Dp. PNS 11:35p

CRV 12:38a

CHP 2:08a

TLH 5:18a

MAD 6:38a

LKC 7:28a

Ar. JAX 9:10a

Dp. JAX 9:25a

PKA 10:38a

DLD 11:23a

WPK 12:09p

Ar. ORL 12:45p

Dp. ORL 1:00p

KSM 1:22p

WHV 2:14p

SEB 2:55p

WPB 4:44p

DLB 5:13p

DRB 5:29p

FLL 5:52p

HLW 6:08p

Ar. MIA 6:45p

#63 (MIA-ORL-JAX-NOL)

Ar. NOL 11:30a

BSL 9:31a

GPT 9:08a

BXI 8:55a

PSC 8:30a

MOE 7:40a

ATM 6:45a

Dp. PNS 5:15a

Ar. PNS 5:00a

CRV 3:20a

CHP 1:47a

TLH 12:34a

MAD 11:10p

LKC 10:00p

Dp. JAX 8:55p

Ar. JAX 8:35p

PKA 7:10p

DLD 6:25p

WPK 5:39p

Dp. ORL 5:20p

Ar. ORL 5:05p

KSM 4:38p

WHV 3:52p

SEB 3:06p

WPB 1:39p

DLB 1:14p

DRB 1:00p

FLL 12:42p

HLW 12:26p

Dp. MIA 12:00p

#110 (PNS-JAX-ORL)

Dp. PNS 8:30p

CRV 9:33p

CHP 11:03p

TLH 2:13a

MAD 3:33a

LKC 4:23a

Ar. JAX 6:05a

Dp. JAX 6:20a

PKA 7:33a

DLD 8:18a

WPK 9:04a

Ar. ORL 9:40a

#111 (ORL-JAX-PNS)

Ar. PNS 8:30a

CRV 7:02a

CHP 5:30a

TLH 4:07a

MAD 2:43a

LKC 1:33a

Dp. JAX 12:28a

Ar. JAX 12:13a

PKA 10:48p

DLD 10:03p

WPK 9:17p

Dp. ORL 8:55p

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

NativeSon, I am curious about how familiar you are with the old timetables, quite a bit I suspect.

I notice the eastbound schedule, that is, the NOL-JK part of it, is quite similar to some of the schedules of the former Gulf Wind. The westbound, JK to NOL that is, is quite similar to the old schedule of the Sunset Limited. Of course most schedules change through the years.

I notice you have given them numbers based on north south rather than east west, am I correct? FWIW the old Gulf Wind was considered east west (at least between Flomaton and Jacksonville)and its numbers were 60 westbound and 61 eastbound. But between NOL and FLomaton its equiment was joined with and was run in conjunction with other trains which were from NYC southbound and to Cincinnati northbound and those numbers were north south.

Day locals from Pensacola to Flomaton and from Jacksonville to Flomaton were considerd pure east west and numbered accordingly, 63 eastbound-62 westbound and 65 eastbound-64 westbound.

I am not sure I am making any sense at all, feel free to blow this off..I am just curious whether it was a coincidence you got close to the old numbers, just wandered if you knew something about the old trains. You are probably right in considering your proposed schedule north south train, just wandering.

Oh and bTW, just for the record,I played around with stuff like this myself. I have ruined many a good old timetable by "re-equipping" the trains in it (i.e. ordering 100 new coaches, 70 new sleepers, etc) , marking up faster schedules, etc. I could kick myself when I see that today. But it was fun. My parents had no idea why I "played with timetables" so much..

 

[NativeSon5859]

NativeSon, I am curious about how familiar you are with the old timetables, quite a bit I suspect.
I notice the eastbound schedule, that is, the NOL-JK part of it, is quite similar to some of the schedules of the former Gulf Wind. The westbound, JK to NOL that is, is quite similar to the old schedule of the Sunset Limited. Of course most schedules change through the years.

I notice you have given them numbers based on north south rather than east west, am I correct? FWIW the old Gulf Wind was considered east west (at least between Flomaton and Jacksonville)and its numbers were 60 westbound and 61 eastbound. But between NOL and FLomaton its equiment was joined with and was run in conjunction with other trains which were from NYC southbound and to Cincinnati northbound and those numbers were north south.

Day locals from Pensacola to Flomaton and from Jacksonville to Flomaton were considerd pure east west and numbered accordingly, 63 eastbound-62 westbound and 65 eastbound-64 westbound.

I am not sure I am making any sense at all, feel free to blow this off..I am just curious whether it was a coincidence you got close to the old numbers, just wandered if you knew something about the old trains. You are probably right in considering your proposed schedule north south train, just wandering.

Oh and bTW, just for the record,I played around with stuff like this myself. I have ruined many a good old timetable by "re-equipping" the trains in it (i.e. ordering 100 new coaches, 70 new sleepers, etc) , marking up faster schedules, etc. I could kick myself when I see that today. But it was fun. My parents had no idea why I "played with timetables" so much..

Hi Bill, honestly, it was just a coincedence with the train numbers. I was aware of the old Gulf Wind schedule out of NOL, but I never really noticed the train numbers. I just sort of picked them randomly.

And btw, your information is very interesting!

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The automobile crowd would be a tougher sell. Going from A to B on a train may be easy enough, but beyond the station, getting to A.a or B.b may be next to impossible without a car given our present intracity transit infrastucture.

Oh really? It's not like the Auto Plane is a viable concept in commercial service. (I believe there has been a case of someone bringing a two or four seat, slightly disassembled airplane to Oshkosh in the cargo hold of a 747, which suggests you could probably also get one automobile into a 747, or maybe even more than one, but I doubt it's a commercially viable servie.)

If you can figure out how to get loading/unloading times competitive with the Chunnel trains, and build 220 MPH or faster track with enough slots to carry trains full of automobiles, there's a decent chance you can capture the auto market for major city pairs and trips that are more than maybe about four hours by Interstate Highway.

 

[TampAGS]

If you can figure out how to get loading/unloading times competitive with the Chunnel trains, and build 220 MPH or faster track with enough slots to carry trains full of automobiles, there's a decent chance you can capture the auto market for major city pairs and trips that are more than maybe about four hours by Interstate Highway.

If all those pieces were in place and working, I agree it could significantly impact the volume on our highways.

 

I suspect, though that by the time they would need to implement those kinds of improvements, we'll all finally be driving around in the proverbial flying car and vacationing on Mars.

h34r: (<-- not a ninja mask but rather a spacesuit helmet)

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I suspect, though that by the time they would need to implement those kinds of improvements, we'll all finally be driving around in the proverbial flying car and vacationing on Mars.[/size][/font]

I thought one of Obama's goals was to eliminate mid-east oil dependence in the next 10 years. If that means cutting off 17% or whatever it is of our transportation fuel supply, do you have better ideas for how we're going to be able to make such a transition happen without hurting the American working class?

 

[TampAGS]

I thought one of Obama's goals was to eliminate mid-east oil dependence in the next 10 years. If that means cutting off 17% or whatever it is of our transportation fuel supply, do you have better ideas for how we're going to be able to make such a transition happen without hurting the American working class?

I think it sounds like a great idea, and an effective way to cut our demand for oil.

 

I'm just saying the components required for an inter-city high-speed auto train scenario to be successful on that level are numerous and not easily/quickly realized given our geography and existing infrastructure.

 

 

 

[zoltan]

I would say that New Orleans to Mobile warrants several services per day, having a considerable number of decent sized settlements along the way; perhaps a commuter schedule in each direction and a few mid-day services.

Also, a second schedule on the crescent - allowing a fully daytime journey from New York to Atlanta, allowing people to be moved cheaply and comfortably (due to no overnight) in coach, and a much needed night service from Atlanta to New Orleans.

So those are my two main thoughts on services in this region.

 

[Frequent Guest]

Did anyone see the part of the article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution (Sunday edition) referring to the fight between Amtrak high speed rail going through the Freedom Parkway/Beltline (abandoned railbed) area and linking to a multi-modal facility at 5 points. IIR, the bed hasn't been "abandoned" and Amtrak doesn't want it to be but the neighborhood (near the Carter Center) is NIMBYing it.

What's the background on this? I must have been asleep.

 

[MattW]

Yea just read it too. Our [Atlanta's, I'm outside of Atlanta] mayor's full of crap. She has a history of blatantly disregarding state laws (remember the guns at airport thing?) and has repeatedly been against transit alternatives that don't pump money directly into her coffers. If anything could improve Amtrak service, I say go for it!