Acela 21 (Avelia Liberty) development, testing and deployment (2018 - 1Q 2024)

[GBNorman]

https://www.thrillist.com/amphtml/news/nation/amtrak-acela-express-trains-upgrade

This article appeared on a Google news feed this morning. Who knows, maybe I'll get in a joyride before my "one way trip topside".

Now on seating configuration; riding backwards? Get used to it. If passengers are more interested in their "playthings" than the view, rotating seats are a hindrance to the power and USB connections.

I guess my first exposure to "ride backwards" was overseas during '60. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. Where fixed seating is in place with the commuter agencies (that means most of 'em), it has always seemed to me that forward riding fills first.

 

[railiner]

I miss the days when commuter MU's had 'walkover' and later 'flipover' seats, everyone got to ride forwards back then....

 

[cpotisch]

ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?

Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot. The rotations generally remain the same. However, when manipulations and service disruptions occur, the question was asked regarding what resources are available for pointing and are we willing to delay the train to satisfy the diagram. The answer was an emphatic NO.

So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.

If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.

 

[cocojacoby]

ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?

Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot. The rotations generally remain the same. However, when manipulations and service disruptions occur, the question was asked regarding what resources are available for pointing and are we willing to delay the train to satisfy the diagram. The answer was an emphatic NO.

So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.

If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.

Well the pictures seem to show digital seat numbers, so that is a real possibility. But I do think that there will be 50% of the passengers that may be in for a big surprise not knowing the ropes of seat picking.

 

[Thirdrail7]

If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.

That may work with some of the equipment but what happens if the you have programmed cars featuring 2x1 seating in a specific direction and the trains is backwards?

What happens if you took first class/sleepers/business class to be on a particular side of the train and the equipment is improperly pointed and now the person doesn't have their "ocean view?"

What happens if you selected first class because it is supposed to be in the rear of the train and you wanted to avoid the noise from the horn and engine. Now, you show up and it it is on the head end?

These are items that plagued the last seat selection process and they have run into these issues with the current pilot(gee, who didn't see that coming?). Some passengers have demanded refunds or reassignment.

It SHOULD be easier as long as the seat is uniform, but when you throw in tables (which may now be the first seat on the left since the train is backwards) and other variables, it can get challenging.

 

[cpotisch]

If the seating layout is "symmetrical", would it be possible for the assigned seats to be relative to the direction of travel? So if you chose the leftmost seat of the front row when you booked, regardless of what direction the train set itself is pointing, you would just be put in the leftmost seat of the front row when you board.

That may work with some of the equipment but what happens if the you have programmed cars featuring 2x1 seating in a specific direction and the trains is backwards?

What happens if you took first class/sleepers/business class to be on a particular side of the train and the equipment is improperly pointed and now the person doesn't have their "ocean view?"

What happens if you selected first class because it is supposed to be in the rear of the train and you wanted to avoid the noise from the horn and engine. Now, you show up and it it is on the head end?

These are items that plagued the last seat selection process and they have run into these issues with the current pilot(gee, who didn't see that coming?). Some passengers have demanded refunds or reassignment.

It SHOULD be easier as long as the seat is uniform, but when you throw in tables (which may now be the first seat on the left since the train is backwards) and other variables, it can get challenging.

Firstly, I'm thinking specifically about Acela right now, so I'm going to preclude sleepers from this, as well as the engine sound since Acela power cars are on both ends.

Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.

 

[cocojacoby]

As long as the rest of the world operates trains at upto 220mph with backward facing seats without any issue I just tend to see this repeated discussions/arguments as a peculiarly American pastime. The few that have genuine issues can be accommodated like they are elsewhere.

OK. Now I think I will duck to let the fusillade launched this way go by unharmed. [emoji57]

Obviously not true in Japan.

 

[mfastx]

Riding backwards sucks. I am susceptible to motion sickness and once had to ride backwards on a regional train in France, it really messed me up. Too bad, but hopefully they allow you to choose your seat like an airline to ensure you are facing forwards.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.

The layout may be the same but the side of the train you're sitting on will differ depending on the pointing. You'd be in the same seat, but that seat may not be on the side of the train you'd like. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know this is a consideration on the Pennsylvanian, the Empire Service and the Boston line where some passengers want a certain view while others want to avoid the sun.

 

[cpotisch]

Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.

The layout may be the same but the side of the train you're sitting on will differ depending on the pointing. You'd be in the same seat, but that seat may not be on the side of the train you'd like. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know this is a consideration on the Pennsylvanian, the Empire Service and the Boston line where some passengers want a certain view while others want to avoid the sun.

Nope. You'd be on the same side. Here's what it would look like:

 

[Thirdrail7]

You're missing an important point. The diagram on the website must conform to the seat number on the train, which is (currently) fixed.

Using the diagram you made above, let's say the seats are numbered/lettered by row (like the current set.) Let's say that is car 3204.

When you board the train, car 3204 row 1/seat 1 is the blue seat is what you selected in your diagram., The red seat at the rear in the same direction of travel is row 12/seat 1.

The rows will not change by pointing.

So, if don't you loop or wye the train when it departs a terminal, row 12 will be at the front of the car. However, if you loop or wye the train, it will once again be in the rear...on the opposite side of the train. The reason you're not imagining this is because you're not considering things like bathrooms, handicapped seating, doors or tables being on a specific end. Your diagram just puts in an equal amount of seats where presumably, the row numbers can be changed at a whim. That may be an option but I'd think ti would remain fixed since ADA accessible seating has positioning and it would be difficult to nail down if you randomly changed row numbers.

 

[cpotisch]

You're missing an important point. The diagram on the website must conform to the seat number on the train, which is (currently) fixed.

Using the diagram you made above, let's say the seats are numbered/lettered by row (like the current set.) Let's say that is car 3204.

When you board the train, car 3204 row 1/seat 1 is the blue seat is what you selected in your diagram., The red seat at the rear in the same direction of travel is row 12/seat 1.

The rows will not change by pointing.

So, if don't you loop or wye the train when it departs a terminal, row 12 will be at the front of the car. However, if you loop or wye the train, it will once again be in the rear...on the opposite side of the train. The reason you're not imagining this is because you're not considering things like bathrooms, handicapped seating, doors or tables being on a specific end. Your diagram just puts in an equal amount of seats where presumably, the row numbers can be changed at a whim. That may be an option but I'd think ti would remain fixed since ADA accessible seating has positioning and it would be difficult to nail down if you randomly changed row numbers.

Couldn't they have a little display or something that shows the seat number? Either way, that was to demonstrate that you can have a car with the same seating layout relative to the direction of travel, regardless of which way the train set is pointing.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Couldn't they have a little display or something that shows the seat number?

The current equipment has this. Even the regular equipment has seat/row numbers. I'm confident the new set will have something similar.

Either way, that was to demonstrate that you can have a car with the same seating layout relative to the direction of travel, regardless of which way the train set is pointing.

Annd your demonstration failed. Let's try this one more time. Using your diagram above, let's take the picture on the right and say the blue seats are row one and that is the "A" end of the coach. Let's say the red sets are the "b" end of the coach and instead of a row of seats, You have a table with four seats surrounding it.

Under normal circumstances, the train will depart NY with this car on the head end of the train. So, the tables are at the rear of the coach. Seat two is a backwards facing seat, with an inland (garden) view. When you arrive in Boston, the train was scheduled to change direction in the station. So, when you depart, the tables would be at the front of the coach and seat 2 would be a forward facing seat, with an inland view. However, there is a problem and the wye the entire train. When you depart, the tables are once again at the rear of the coach and now seat 2 which would have normally been a forward facing seat on this leg is once again a backward facing seat. Additionally, you now are on the side with the shore view.

This is why there have been issues. and this is why Acela asked about pointing solutions.

If you still don't understand, take out a pen and paper and draw it out.....like I just had to do.

 

[cpotisch]

Couldn't they have a little display or something that shows the seat number?

The current equipment has this. Even the regular equipment has seat/row numbers. I'm confident the new set will have something similar.

Either way, that was to demonstrate that you can have a car with the same seating layout relative to the direction of travel, regardless of which way the train set is pointing.

Annd your demonstration failed. Let's try this one more time. Using your diagram above, let's take the picture on the right and say the blue seats are row one and that is the "A" end of the coach. Let's say the red sets are the "b" end of the coach and instead of a row of seats, You have a table with four seats surrounding it.

Under normal circumstances, the train will depart NY with this car on the head end of the train. So, the tables are at the rear of the coach. Seat two is a backwards facing seat, with an inland (garden) view. When you arrive in Boston, the train was scheduled to change direction in the station. So, when you depart, the tables would be at the front of the coach and seat 2 would be a forward facing seat, with an inland view. However, there is a problem and the wye the entire train. When you depart, the tables are once again at the rear of the coach and now seat 2 which would have normally been a forward facing seat on this leg is once again a backward facing seat. Additionally, you now are on the side with the shore view.

This is why there have been issues. and this is why Acela asked about pointing solutions.

If you still don't understand, take out a pen and paper and draw it out.....like I just had to do.

I see. So the main issue is that it has tables at one end and therefore it will be flipped around with a view of the opposite side. Hypothetical solution: Tables at both ends.

To put it another way, do you agree that if the layout is identical when flipped 180º, it will work in either direction, assuming that the seat numbers aren't assigned to specific physical seats? Not saying they should do this. I'm just asking if they did do this.

 

[jis]

I don’t think this is manageable unless you are able to have better control on train composition and orientation.

 

[Acela150]

ThirdRail, I understand your point about reserving seats. Which that's not an issue. But there is one issue.. How will people know which way the trainset is going say 3 months before they board? e.g Which end the First Class Car is on. Heck no one know where the First Class car is until they board. Now if you're in the know about the Trainset rotation then you can somewhat predict which end it'll be on. But is this something that is being worked out?

Three months in advance? You may not know which way the train is going to point 20 minutes before it is released from the yard. This is one of the main problems with assigned/pre-selected seating and is something that still plagues the seat assignment pilot.

So, it will ALWAYS have to the potential to be an issue.

Exactly my point.

The pointing of the HST. Cause I'm going to assume FC will be only at one end like the current HST.

Let's say you reserve seat 4A and that is at a table on Train 2150 and you think the FC car is the last car of the train so you think you'll be facing forward. But FC ends up at the front and now your going backwards.

I just don't see this being without issues from Pax.

 

[bretton88]

Is it sad that in Turkey (a developing country), I can buy a ticket for their HST service a month in advance and know which direction and side of the train I am on but Amtrak can't guarantee tomorrow? Why have other countries mastered this but not Amtrak?

 

[Acela150]

Is it sad that in Turkey (a developing country), I can buy a ticket for their HST service a month in advance and know which direction and side of the train I am on but Amtrak can't guarantee tomorrow? Why have other countries mastered this but not Amtrak?

Merica!! That’s why. [emoji53]

 

[PVD]

It isn't always as hard to do something as it is to decide you actually want to do it.

 

[gatelouse]

Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.

 

[OBS]

Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.

Then you need a general manager in charge of electronic seat displays and a foreman to oversee the technician in charge of setting the displays as well as the technician person...way too costly....

 

[Ryan]

Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.

In the example above with 2x1 seating, you’ve just changed the seat to a single to a double.

 

[Ziv]

So the article said that a prototype Avelia trainset would be available in 2019. Will it actually carry passengers alongside the existing Acelas or will it just do test runs with no revenue passengers? I imagine the latter, but the former would be cool to see. Who knows, maybe in 2020 you would be able to book a ride on the future of Amtrak, a year before the rest of the trainsets start to show up.

http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/09/us-amtrak-reveals-interior-design-of-its-future-alstom-avelia-trains/

 

[cpotisch]

Put the seat numbers on electronic displays and adjust them according to the direction the train is pointing. Voila—seat 1A is always front left and facing the same direction every time.

In the example above with 2x1 seating, you’ve just changed the seat to a single to a double.

Nope. I don't want to argue on this one and I'm probably not properly articulating my point, but when it's rotated 180º, the layout is always the same. This means that you can always have the exact same seat, so long as they make sure the numbers are switched properly.

DISCLAIMER: Again, I'm not actually saying they should do this. This is just a hypothetical layout and an idea that physically could work, but probably wouldn't make practical sense.

 

[cpotisch]

Now I'm not saying they should do this, but if in the first class car, the 2x1 seating switched in the middle, such that what was the single seat side turns into the two seat side facing the other way, the layout would always be the same, regardless of the direction the train is pointing. Therefore passengers would always end up in the spot they had wanted.

The layout may be the same but the side of the train you're sitting on will differ depending on the pointing. You'd be in the same seat, but that seat may not be on the side of the train you'd like. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know this is a consideration on the Pennsylvanian, the Empire Service and the Boston line where some passengers want a certain view while others want to avoid the sun.

Nope. You'd be on the same side. Here's what it would look like:

Just to clarify, the example on the left is showing where you would put a passenger in 1A when the train set is traveling with the blue seats first, and the example on the right is where 1A would be when the train is traveling with the red seats first. Either way, the seat is facing forwards in the front row, and is always a double. Once the train is there and ready to go, the seat numbers are assigned to the physical seats, and pax will end up facing the correct way in the correct seat on the correct side of the train.