Acela 2151 Stalled in Queens

[jis]

Neither Acela nor any LIRR equipment have traps and stairs.
There's 3rd rail there. No way.

Moreover if it stalled on the new Amtrak duck under track, it would be a pretty odd and unpleasant walk to any other train too, assuming of course said new track is in service.

 

[Rasputin]

Moreover if it stalled on the new Amtrak duck under track, it would be a pretty odd and unpleasant walk to any other train too.

Oh, so there is an excuse after all. Those people are lucky to get out alive and should be singing high praise to Amtrak for protecting them against what could have been an utter disaster.

 

[Amtrak25]

That's an excuse for not removing people right there onto another train, not for moving it to another location any sooner than 7 hours hence.

 

[TheCrescent]

Neither Acela nor any LIRR equipment have traps and stairs.
There's 3rd rail there. No way.

Then Amtrak ought to have a set of portable stairs available.

I’m not going to sit in a stalled train for 7 hours, no matter what.

 

[OBS]

Then Amtrak ought to have a set of portable stairs available.

I’m not going to sit in a stalled train for 7 hours, no matter what.

It has a set....I wouldn't be in such a rush to try and use them, trust me.

 

[TC_NYC]

Brown said when it did start moving again, there was a smell of smoke that made the last stretch of the journey scary. It was “not a good situation, shame on Amtrak," she said.

That makes me think the brakes would not release.

 

[Acela150]

Besides a rescue engine you also need a crew. Perhaps there were none available and they had to call someone off the extra board? That might take a couple of hours alone.

Their are typically several yard crews on duty during a day. So this most likely wasn't the issue.

Shove it back to Woodside where passengers could have been placed on the next LIRR train from Jamaica or Port Washington to Penn Station within a few minutes, then haul their supertrain equipment into Sunnyside. If to the Port Washington branch, LIRR could easily single thread around it with a crossover just east of the station.

This isn't an option as Amtrak crews would need to be qualified on the territory, rules, etc of the LIRR, and LIRR crews aren't qualified on Acela equipment.

These situations are SOOO annoying for the crews stuck on the trains, because they can never get ACCURATE info regarding rescue times or plans. The crews were undoubtedly told it will be 60-90 minutes.... then another hour, then not sure how much longer, etc.

It is very hard to keep passengers satisfied when even the operating crew can't get accurate time frames for response times. I went thru this probably 100 times over my career.

Their is so much truth to this. Especially as an OBS crew member who doesn't have a radio we can't provide any good info. This happened to me recently on the Builder when my 12 car went on the ground at MKE.

Here’s a solution:

Stop all train traffic along that stretch of track for 15 minutes.

Let the passengers walk off the train.

Let them board the next LIRR train that goes by, on the way to NYP.

I was on a train on the NEC about 20 years ago. It broke down. We got off the train and walked along the tracks and were picked up. It was an easy solution.

Not a safe and practical solution at all. That opens the door to someone getting hurt and suing.

 

[Amtrak25]

Three LIRR fan trips in the 1990's ran to Connecticut. Amtrak and MN crews came along for qualifications boarding at Harold, while the LIRR engineer was at the throttle the whole time

Since the Acela was dead in the water, the LIRR crew need not be qualified on it. A LIRR engineer could have been on their own engine towing the dead Acela to Woodside. Once everyone got off, proceed to Corona, run around, and haul it back to Sunnyside.

Amtrak E60's have hauled dead LIRR MU's and LIRR diesels have shoved dead NJT trains into Penn Station and back to Jersey.

 

[Rasputin]

Just wondering what the protocol would have been in this situation if a passenger or crew member had a medical emergency? Would they have to wait the required seven hours before receiving treatment?

 

[TheCrescent]

Not a safe and practical solution at all. That opens the door to someone getting hurt and suing.

Keeping people on a stalled train for 7 hours is not a safe and practical solution at all. That opens the door to someone getting hurt (medical emergency?) and suing (lost business due to missed meetings etc.). These days, anyone can sue for anything at any time and fear of lawsuits is not a reasonable reason to keep people on a train for 7 hours.

In this situation, the right solution is "whatever gets people to a station or replacement train asap". That's what Amtrak did 20 years ago when my train broke down on the NEC; we got off, walked along the tracks and were picked up by a replacement train.

 

[joelkfla]

Just wondering what the protocol would have been in this situation if a passenger or crew member had a medical emergency? Would they have to wait the required seven hours before receiving treatment?

No doubt emergency responders would have been called to the train. They weren't incommunicado, and they were in an urban area.

 

[TheCrescent]

No doubt emergency responders would have been called to the train. They weren't incommunicado, and they were in an urban area.

So that’s the solution next time this happens: call an ambulance and the ambulance crew can get passengers off the train.

Ridiculous? Yes, but better than spending 7 hours on a train.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Their are typically several yard crews on duty during a day. So this most likely wasn't the issue.

This isn't an option as Amtrak crews would need to be qualified on the territory, rules, etc of the LIRR, and LIRR crews aren't qualified on Acela equipment.

Their is so much truth to this. Especially as an OBS crew member who doesn't have a radio we can't provide any good info. This happened to me recently on the Builder when my 12 car went on the ground at MKE.


Not a safe and practical solution at all. That opens the door to someone getting hurt and suing.

Can OBS take their own Scanners or a Radio aboard while working Steve?

I've never seen this in my 50+ years of riding, and never thought to ask an OBS or T&E Crew Member.

 

[Acela150]

Keeping people on a stalled train for 7 hours is not a safe and practical solution at all. That opens the door to someone getting hurt (medical emergency?) and suing (lost business due to missed meetings etc.). These days, anyone can sue for anything at any time and fear of lawsuits is not a reasonable reason to keep people on a train for 7 hours.

In this situation, the right solution is "whatever gets people to a station or replacement train asap". That's what Amtrak did 20 years ago when my train broke down on the NEC; we got off, walked along the tracks and were picked up by a replacement train.

The train had power, heat, food etc. How isn't that a safe environment? The train could be stuck in the middle of no where with no power, heat, food, etc.

Do I think that 7 hours is to long? Yes. However, people have been stuck on trains for days. And I am NOT exaggerating. Also, that area is full of Third Rail at 750 Volts DC. One person steps on that? They're dead in an instant. If a medical emergency occurs EMS can be dispatched and the situation can be handled by the appropriate personnel.

 

[Acela150]

So that’s the solution next time this happens: call an ambulance and the ambulance crew can get passengers off the train.

Ridiculous? Yes, but better than spending 7 hours on a train.

If you're having a true medical emergency? Yes. But just cause "you want off"? No.

Can OBS take their own Scanners or a Radio aboard while working Steve?

I've never seen this in my 50+ years of riding, and never thought to ask an OBS or T&E Crew Member.

I honestly don't know the policy on this Jim. I do keep my scanner in my backpack although I haven't used it.

 

[amtrakpass]

I don't know the logistics of it but there is plainly a way to shut off third rail when there is maintenance going on with a dispatcher or something. Also I think Amtrak and LlRR both have trained their crews to be able to evacuate trains through the tunnels in case of an emergency like a terrorist attack. But really the easiest thing seems to be to have another engine drag the disabled train to a station platform. The brakes should be able to be cut out and released for that purpose even if they are not working for normal operation. But even if the brakes don't release the most that would happen dragging it at very low speed to a station platform or other access point would be flatspots on the wheels which could then be changed out(as is done on a lifecycle basis anyway)

 

[TheCrescent]

The train had power, heat, food etc. How isn't that a safe environment? The train could be stuck in the middle of no where with no power, heat, food, etc.

Do I think that 7 hours is to long? Yes. However, people have been stuck on trains for days. And I am NOT exaggerating. Also, that area is full of Third Rail at 750 Volts DC. One person steps on that? They're dead in an instant. If a medical emergency occurs EMS can be dispatched and the situation can be handled by the appropriate personnel.

There is NO excuse for keeping people on a stalled train in Queens for 7 hours. Come up with whatever arguments you’d like as to why each solution doesn’t work, but what happened was unacceptable, period.
If people in charge took the approach of shooting down every potential solution, they should be fired, as their job is to make things happen, particularly getting people off the train quickly.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

So that’s the solution next time this happens: call an ambulance and the ambulance crew can get passengers off the train.

Ridiculous? Yes, but better than spending 7 hours on a train.

And you’ll be billed for the ambulance, especially when one was not needed.

 

[MARC Rider]

Unpopular opinion: consider awaiting facts before throwing stones.

While I don't have experience with these particular laptops, I do have experience with fancy test laptops and it isn't as easy as going and buying a laptop, it's the millions of dollars (if the OEM is even willing to give you a price) on the license to operate their fancy software on said laptop.

That sounds about right. Back in 2011 or so, I was stuck on a Northeast Regional when the HHP-8 died. We spent a couple of hours in the cold between Rt 128 and Providence waiting for someone to show up with the "million dollar laptop," according to what the crew was telling us.

I don't quite understand why the OEM doesn't just give Amtrak enough licenses so that a laptop with a copy of the "fancy software" is available on board every train. It's not like the software has any value to someone if they don't have an Acela/HHP-8/ACS64/Charger, and there aren't that many other people who own such equipment.

 

[daybeers]

Help me understand why another Amtrak train couldn't have pulled alongside and laid bridge plates down for passengers to travel between the trains? The third rail could've been turned off temporarily if required.

Regardless of if a trillion-dollar laptop was needed, regardless if people were stuck on trains for days in the past, regardless of if the third rail could've killed someone if not turned off, regardless of if the brakes were stuck on, regardless if the crew didn't have much info and weren't qualified for this or that, bottom line is this situation was ridiculous and Amtrak did an extremely poor job of handling it and communicating to the passengers. How many of these passengers won't ever travel by train again?

 

[west point]

Help me understand why another Amtrak train couldn't have pulled alongside and laid bridge plates down for passengers to travel between the trains? The third rail could've been turned off temporarily if required.

That was my thought as well. That has been done before. Only if the train was on a single-track portion would that have not worked. However why was the protect loco at NYP not manned? If it wasn't manned any number of Amtrak engineers that operate on the route that either were there to start to BOS or terminating there could operate the rescue loco. Or they could have gotten one at Sunyside?

Now if it was a problem that required the laptop then as a passenger, I would sue the AX1 builder for building a machine that unnecessarily puts passenger in peril.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The location of the breakdown was problematic. Too close to a shop. “Will just have a mechanic head over to the equipment and fix it there.” Then the delays start pile up. Ever time the National Operations people check in they were told 15 to 30 minutes more needed.

Yes they should of done better, and yes I hope my senior Senator from NY looks into this, or at least calls for a investigation. However I am not holding my breath.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

So there was a time when nobody could access our trucks computer. It’s was a million dollars for software needed. No dealers, no trucking companies would pay for the software. The problem was corrected at some point, after a lot of threats, demands, and a lawsuit. It’s still a sore spot with mangers of the company.

Calling for a ambulance to get you out/off a situation. Yeah seen that happening before. Snow storm and a steep hill. No we could not charge for it. A lot of sweaty firefighters were in disbelief. Not the ambulance crew, just another taxi run for us.

 

[TheCrescent]

So there was a time when nobody could access our trucks computer. It’s was a million dollars for software needed. No dealers, no trucking companies would pay for the software. The problem was corrected at some point, after a lot of threats, demands, and a lawsuit. It’s still a sore spot with mangers of the company.

Calling for a ambulance to get you out/off a situation. Yeah seen that happening before. Snow storm and a steep hill. No we could not charge for it. A lot of sweaty firefighters were in disbelief. Not the ambulance crew, just another taxi run for us.

My suggestion if an ambulance was partially a poor attempt at cynicism and humor.

 

[Ryan]

I don't quite understand why the OEM doesn't just give Amtrak enough licenses so that a laptop with a copy of the "fancy software" is available on board every train. It's not like the software has any value to someone if they don't have an Acela/HHP-8/ACS64/Charger, and there aren't that many other people who own such equipment.

Again, no experience with this particular laptop, but companies interested in continuing to make money aren't particularly motivated to give you the tools needed to fix something yourself and far more interested in making you dependent on them coming out to fix whatever the issue of the day is (for a tidy sum of money, of course).