Acela is so expensive!

[SouthernServesTheSouth]

Train...no hassle

Plane.....weather problems, over booked flights, cancelled flights, TSA, still have to get to city

 

[jebr]

Yes, trains never have hassles or delays, especially due to weather.

ETA: This is just on the NEC. While it's more than likely better than the airlines, let's not romanticize it or make it seem perfect when it's just good. I won't get started on the insanity that happens outside the NEC.

 

[jis]

And we will also avoid talking about the insanity that happens more regularly than we'd like on the NEC too

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[NE933]

The insanity has osmoted all throughout the world. It's everywhere.

 

[Anderson]

Yeah, that gets to the point where exact timing and exact origin/destination start to make a difference.

As far as WAS-BOS, that leans far more towards the plane, which is why the Acela is best treated like two separate segments, WAS-NYP and NYP-BOS. There's a hell of a lot of turnover at NYP. That's also what the 7-year-ago-OP asked about (WAS-NYP).

Just as a general thought here, but Amtrak has been able to break into markets up to about BOS-PHL in length (which comes to somewhere around four hours, give or take). The prevailing logic before had been a three-hour limit (hence the push with the Metroliners back in the 60s)...but that was also in an era of the unlimited Eastern shuttle at a fixed price. It was a time when there was a passing chance of an airline pulling a fresh plane up to the terminal for two additional passengers, either non-existent or negligible airport security, etc.

50 years later (more or less), the variables of airport security and flight availability have apparently bumped that bar up an hour or so. That being said, there's very little endpoint traffic on the Acela (I think I've done a straight endpoint run all of once) and that was never the intended target market. Amtrak has attempted to target that market with the NEC Future proposal (which is another discussion entirely).

 

[afigg]

Yes, when we discuss the Acela vs air travel markets, it is mainly WAS, BAL to NYP and NYP to BOS markets with some BOS-PHL/WIL market share. But the Acela is not just competing against air travel, but car travel as it gets a mix of business travelers and personal travel from people who are willing to pay the higher fares.

Since 2007, Amtrak has incrementally jacked up the Acela prices (with no improvements in trip time), but stills sell the tickets, as demand still exceeds the supply at the peak morning and late afternoon periods.

We don't have the September 2014 ridership and revenue numbers yet, so I can't compare FY2014 vs FY2007, but for fun, here is FY2013 vs FY07 for the Acela and the NE Regionals.

Acela Acela NE Regional NE Regional
FY Ridership Revenue Ridership Revenue
FY2007 3,191,321 $403,571,410 6,836,646 $424,721,134
FY2013 3,343,143 $530,820,821 8,044,216 $568,744,563

Yes, Amtrak took in $127 million in revenue from the Acela in FY2013 than they did in FY2007. Tidy increase. But note the revenue and ridership increase for the Regionals.

 

[jis]

As more cars become available from Midwest and more Regionals become 9 car trains and perhaps some train car trains I expect that we will continue to see the healthy growth in ridership and revenue on the Regionals.

 

[Anderson]

Yes, when we discuss the Acela vs air travel markets, it is mainly WAS, BAL to NYP and NYP to BOS markets with some BOS-PHL/WIL market share. But the Acela is not just competing against air travel, but car travel as it gets a mix of business travelers and personal travel from people who are willing to pay the higher fares.

Since 2007, Amtrak has incrementally jacked up the Acela prices (with no improvements in trip time), but stills sell the tickets, as demand still exceeds the supply at the peak morning and late afternoon periods.

We don't have the September 2014 ridership and revenue numbers yet, so I can't compare FY2014 vs FY2007, but for fun, here is FY2013 vs FY07 for the Acela and the NE Regionals.

Acela Acela NE Regional NE Regional
FY Ridership Revenue Ridership Revenue
FY2007 3,191,321 $403,571,410 6,836,646 $424,721,134
FY2013 3,343,143 $530,820,821 8,044,216 $568,744,563

Yes, Amtrak took in $127 million in revenue from the Acela in FY2013 than they did in FY2007. Tidy increase. But note the revenue and ridership increase for the Regionals.

Acela Acela Acela NE Regional NE Regional NE Regional
FY Ridership Revenue PPR Ridership Revenue PPR
FY2007 3,191,321 $403,571,410 $126.46 6,836,646 $424,721,134 $62.12
FY2013 3,343,143 $530,820,821 $158.78 8,044,216 $568,744,563 $70.70
Change +4.76% +31.53% +25.56% +17.66% +33.91% +13.81%

Here's the thing: The Acela has basically been slammed up against some degree of a capacity wall most of this time (a break for the recession notwithstanding) and Amtrak has been trying to outrun the demand wall. Too many sold-out trains are a problem, since it forces away late-booking travelers on those loose expense accounts. Amtrak does not want that to happen, so Acela fares have been climbing a wall lately. The Regionals have started seeing this more recently (last 2-3 years) amid rising ridership (a non-trivial portion of which is follow-through ridership from VA which does not get covered here).

 

[PerRock]

Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.) Air time is just over an hour, so total time is probably about four hours (2 hours on the start, an hour at the end.)

In comparison, Acela first class starts at $277 and goes up from there. 2 hours and 50 minutes, though assume an additional hour there as well (half hour on either end) to get to destination.

Of course, by the time someone would add taxi fare on either end, it'd probably be a wash either way, depending on what time exactly they needed their flight.

Jebr, your comparing Apples to Oranges. For an accurate comparison you need to be looking at the up-scale airline seats, not the cheap economy class seats. Checking Delta (as that was the primary carrier pictured. Biz Class for tomorrow (10-15) starts at $297 and goes up from there.

It's probably the #1 thing that annoys me when people complain about Amtrak fares. They'll say that a sleeper is too expensive on Amtrak & then compare the cost to an economy airline seat. If you're going to look at an upgraded Amtrak seat (Biz, Slep, 1st) make sure you look at an upgraded airline seat as well!

peter

Authors Note: So in writing this I looked at a couple different flight websites. In the end I quoted from Delta themselves. However most sites had prices in about the same range, Google Flights however found flights for almost $100 cheaper, that none of the other sites found. An 1st class seat on US Air for $207!

 

[jis]

It depends on the temporal length of the journey. For example I routinely fly economy cross country on a 5-6 hour flight, but I will not travel coach on Amtrak for 2.5 to 3 days to travel between the same two points. OTOH on the NEC it is no contest. I will always take a Regional or Acela.

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[jebr]

Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.) Air time is just over an hour, so total time is probably about four hours (2 hours on the start, an hour at the end.)

In comparison, Acela first class starts at $277 and goes up from there. 2 hours and 50 minutes, though assume an additional hour there as well (half hour on either end) to get to destination.

Of course, by the time someone would add taxi fare on either end, it'd probably be a wash either way, depending on what time exactly they needed their flight.

Jebr, your comparing Apples to Oranges. For an accurate comparison you need to be looking at the up-scale airline seats, not the cheap economy class seats. Checking Delta (as that was the primary carrier pictured. Biz Class for tomorrow (10-15) starts at $297 and goes up from there.

It's probably the #1 thing that annoys me when people complain about Amtrak fares. They'll say that a sleeper is too expensive on Amtrak & then compare the cost to an economy airline seat. If you're going to look at an upgraded Amtrak seat (Biz, Slep, 1st) make sure you look at an upgraded airline seat as well!

peter

Authors Note: So in writing this I looked at a couple different flight websites. In the end I quoted from Delta themselves. However most sites had prices in about the same range, Google Flights however found flights for almost $100 cheaper, that none of the other sites found. An 1st class seat on US Air for $207!

I was. In the post, it shows in small print in the lower right hand corner of each fare that it is a first class seat, not an economy seat. (I had to dig a bit to find the option to only show first class fares, but I was able to find it.)

 

[Shortline]

Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.)

First class on a regional jet (Delta Connection or American Eagle), eh?

Trust me, the train is much, much, much, much, much more comfortable.

I personally prefer FC on Regional jets-unlike MD80/88/737/A320 and larger AC, the RJ's have a FC cabin with 2-1 seating, which I like. I usually book early enough to book the single seat side. Even without that, the 2 side is still larger than an Amtrak BC seat in the non-2-1 cars, and equivalent to the 2-1 BC on the Wolverine.

While I generally do NOT like coach on Regional airliners, and avoid the CRJ 100/200 at all costs, I do enjoy FC on the CRJ 700/900, and EMB 175's. I spend a lot of time on the larger RJ's, and usually in First. Not a bad way to travel at all.

The thing about Acela, is the exclusivity of it. It's really not THAT much faster than a Regional train, but sometimes minutes count, and the clientele tend to be more professional, than the average coach train. Similar to BC on the Pennsylvanian, even though it's essentially the same as one of the Amfleet II coaches, the BC cars tend to be quieter, cleaner, and have a more professional feel, which I prefer. Worth the extra to upgrade, just for the difference in surroundings.