Adding a Second LD Frequency

[The Metropolitan]

One of the things we tend to always refer to when regarding the LD trains is how a number of potentially key stops are passed in the middle of the night. Still another issue is that the limited supply of seats hampers room for growth on this network.

So my question to you is this: If Amtrak were to test running a second frequency on ONE of its (single) overnight LD trains for a period of one year to test its effect on demand, which train do you think would be the best to get the nod? Consider which train offers the best possibilties for growth while adding convenience to crucial markets. Another factor worth considering would be wether Superliner or Amfleet/Viewliner stock would be easier to find enough units to supply the train, or other options (such as truncating the Cardinal at WAS and using Superliners to supply Viewliners for an added frequency on one of the single level trains).

The reason I chose the single overnighters is that this experiment could be run with just two added trainsets (though I believe some like the Capitol could be accomplished with one). I realize that the Starlight is more than a 24 hour cycle, but with proper schedule, could still possibly done with two added sets. The schedule of the second frequency would be 8-16 hours opposite the existing frequency to ensure daylight stops at places where the current schedule stops at night and in the wee hours of the morning.

Some random notes:

Cardinal was not included since it is less than daily.

Silver Service was not listed, as by and large it is twice and even thrice daily in spots.

I considered adding services like the Pennsylvanian and Maple Leaf, but since these trains make most stops at decent times, opted to omit these.

 

[George Harris]

I picked the Lakeshore because if there is any route that cries for mulit frequency service, this is it. Although today this line is too slow, I never did understand why the New York Central did not try a City of New Orleans style day train.

George

 

[yarrow]

doesn't meet your criteria but my dream would be the return of the western star to complement the empire builder

 

[The Metropolitan]

I know its a hard choice between some of these. I know the LSL screams for another frequency, though I also like another possibility as well. Check this concept out:

1) Look into shortening the Cardinal to Washington DC using Superliners, if available.

2) With the Viewliner Sleepers freed from this #50/51, create the following train, comprised of A-IIs or A-I 60 seaters for coaches and the single sleeper, running the following schedule:

Leave Boston on the time of train #67 and proceed to Washington DC as train #17.

(Add a connection train from WAS to NPN using #67)

Continue this train (#17) South on the route of the Crescent. Leaving Washington at 7:30am, it should arrive in Atlanta about 9:15, thus making all intermediate stops at convenient hours, such as Charlotte at about 3:30pm. Contuning past Atlanta, it would offer an additional night of service for the sleeper, arriving in New Orleans just past 8:00am.

For the return, train #18 would be based on #66's times, with the NPN service operated by a connecting train to WAS, which would become #66.

Departure from NOL would be at 7:30pm, arriving in Atlanta right about 7:45am. From there to WAS, all stops would be at convenient times, such as Charlotte at 1:30pm. Arrival in DC would be at the reasonable time of about 9:45pm, with departure at 10:00pm continuing to Boston on #66's times, and arriving the next morning!

An alternate form of this idea would be to simply follow the route of the Carolinian to Charlotte and continuing on to NOL, adding about one hour in travel time, but creating a one seat ride between NOL, ATL, CLT, RGH, and RVR, many of which were not directly connected before.

Maybe this could be the "James Brown," or for those around Providence, the "Midnight Train to Georgia!" And it would create a same day connection for both the Sunset and CNO in NOL!!!

 

[gswager]

It's not on the list, but I would add an extension of Pacific Surfliner ("Coast Daylight") to San Francisco.

 

[AlanB]

It's not on the list, but I would add an extension of Pacific Surfliner ("Coast Daylight") to San Francisco.

From what I understand, that may actually be closer to reality than you think. California is really pushing rather hard on a "day" train between LAX and San Fran. Assuming other factors and current progress, such a train might actually become reality within the next year. I'm not sure if it would run Surfliner equipment, Amfleet, or even possibly Horizon, but there is considerable support and pressure for such a train.

 

[battalion51]

I'm with Greg. Coast Daylight taking the Inland route into the city of San Francisco.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I vote for the Lakeshore just on population and past history.

I was recently looking at a 1959 Pennsylvania timetable and seem to recall it showed about 5 trains a day from CHI to NYC.

Add to that the large rival New York Central (from which we get the Lakeshore) , and add smaller lines like Baltimore & Ohio, Erie-Lackawana and Nickel Plate,(some of which did not reach Manhattan directly, I know) at one the time there were probably about 18 or 20 or so trains a day from NYC to CHI.

That plus various routes and other trains just going part of the way, like NYC to Cleveland, Chicago to Pittsburgh, etc, etc.

None of the other routes listed ever had such frequency.

 

[Sam Damon]

I have to go with the flow here. Another frequency on the LSL route would most likely help Amtrak. I would hope if this would come to pass, a schedule might be worked to hit the Ohio stops at more reasonable hours. I'm not quite sure how that might be done, though.

Even before the scheduling issue, though, there are formidable obstacles in adding a frequency:

1) No Viewliners to spare

2 and 3) CSX and NS, in no particular order.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

A lot of those have merit, but I'd have to say make all currently non-daily trains daily before you multi anything else. That really needs to be the first "frequency increase".

 

[Rafi]

I know its a hard choice between some of these. I know the LSL screams for another frequency, though I also like another possibility as well. Check this concept out:
1) Look into shortening the Cardinal to Washington DC using Superliners, if available.

2) With the Viewliner Sleepers freed from this #50/51, create the following train, comprised of A-IIs or A-I 60 seaters for coaches and the single sleeper, running the following schedule:

Leave Boston on the time of train #67 and proceed to Washington DC as train #17.

(Add a connection train from WAS to NPN using #67)

Continue this train (#17) South on the route of the Crescent. Leaving Washington at 7:30am, it should arrive in Atlanta about 9:15, thus making all intermediate stops at convenient hours, such as Charlotte at about 3:30pm. Contuning past Atlanta, it would offer an additional night of service for the sleeper, arriving in New Orleans just past 8:00am.

For the return, train #18 would be based on #66's times, with the NPN service operated by a connecting train to WAS, which would become #66.

Departure from NOL would be at 7:30pm, arriving in Atlanta right about 7:45am. From there to WAS, all stops would be at convenient times, such as Charlotte at 1:30pm. Arrival in DC would be at the reasonable time of about 9:45pm, with departure at 10:00pm continuing to Boston on #66's times, and arriving the next morning!

An alternate form of this idea would be to simply follow the route of the Carolinian to Charlotte and continuing on to NOL, adding about one hour in travel time, but creating a one seat ride between NOL, ATL, CLT, RGH, and RVR, many of which were not directly connected before.

Maybe this could be the "James Brown," or for those around Providence, the "Midnight Train to Georgia!" And it would create a same day connection for both the Sunset and CNO in NOL!!!

You know, the above really makes sense. If it were to follow the Carolinian route, I'd suggest just retooling the Carolinian's run times to serve as the main train, since it's a day train between New York and Charlotte now anyway. While I have a loyalty to the Crescent route (my family lives in Culpeper, and my corporate headquarters are in Atlanta, so I frequent the train quite a bit), the fact of the matter is that the Carolinian route from WAS to GBO serves a larger population that's more likely to use the train on a more frequent basis (I think) than the route the Crescent takes. The only stumbling block would be splitting the Newport News segment south of Washington. I don't know that Richmond Staples Mill (RVR) has the facilities for switching, even though it's just north of Acca yard.

The eventual plan is for Richmond Main Street Station's (RVM) westbound platform and track to be reconstructed to support the Carolinian and Silver Services/Palmetto, however, and since you have to go through Acca yard to get there, perhaps Acca itself is the place to do a non-station-stop split of the train. As long as Main Street can't support the westbound trains, just have them express to Petersburg from Acca Yard, and when Main Street becomes ready, you could have both trains board on either side of the station simultaneously.

Rafi

 

[Steve4031]

I know its a hard choice between some of these. I know the LSL screams for another frequency, though I also like another possibility as well. Check this concept out:
1) Look into shortening the Cardinal to Washington DC using Superliners, if available.

2) With the Viewliner Sleepers freed from this #50/51, create the following train, comprised of A-IIs or A-I 60 seaters for coaches and the single sleeper, running the following schedule:

Leave Boston on the time of train #67 and proceed to Washington DC as train #17.

(Add a connection train from WAS to NPN using #67)

Continue this train (#17) South on the route of the Crescent. Leaving Washington at 7:30am, it should arrive in Atlanta about 9:15, thus making all intermediate stops at convenient hours, such as Charlotte at about 3:30pm. Contuning past Atlanta, it would offer an additional night of service for the sleeper, arriving in New Orleans just past 8:00am.

For the return, train #18 would be based on #66's times, with the NPN service operated by a connecting train to WAS, which would become #66.

Departure from NOL would be at 7:30pm, arriving in Atlanta right about 7:45am. From there to WAS, all stops would be at convenient times, such as Charlotte at 1:30pm. Arrival in DC would be at the reasonable time of about 9:45pm, with departure at 10:00pm continuing to Boston on #66's times, and arriving the next morning!

An alternate form of this idea would be to simply follow the route of the Carolinian to Charlotte and continuing on to NOL, adding about one hour in travel time, but creating a one seat ride between NOL, ATL, CLT, RGH, and RVR, many of which were not directly connected before.

Maybe this could be the "James Brown," or for those around Providence, the "Midnight Train to Georgia!" And it would create a same day connection for both the Sunset and CNO in NOL!!!

I Kind of like the James Brown idea. He has some gret songs for listening to on the train such as "Its Not the Express, It's the Monorail, and Make it Funk." On a more flippant note, they could put names on some of cars to commeorate his songs. Like on a long distance coacdh,"It's Too Funky in Here". I know I am a little far out, but it is kind of fun.

 

[DaveKCMO]

i didn't vote, since i would rarely ever use any of these lines. i echo the comments about increasing the frequencies of those routes that aren't yet daily.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Thinking about my one idea, I actually spent some time fleshing it out The more I think about it, the more I like it - have a lookat this mock up:

Looking back, it seems a must to modify #66 to leave NOL 45 minutes to an hour later, time that would absorbed on the NEC (30 mins at WAS, the remainder at NYP). This would secure a reasonable connection from the Sunset, and offer ATL NB service at a more reasonable hour (630am), while putting this train more in between the Carolinian and the Piedmont.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll attempt a similar timetable for an additional LSL frequency.

 

[saxman]

I voted for the Coast Starlight. This is because there are already 4 choices between CHI and NY.

But here's something to consider if you add a frequency on only one route. It'd be great for the people along the route, but you also have to consider LSL connections. What is it, about 2/3rd of passengers are connecting pax from Western LD trains. I'm assuming this new LSL will leave CHI midmorning or so, yet not trains come in from the west or sourth until afternoon. So yes, you may get lots of local pax to ride the new route, but you won't know the full effects until other connections are made possible. Of there's a few midwest trains that get to CHI early but thats just some. So maybe add several frequencies to other routes as well. I think the Empire Builder would do well with another frequency, plus that would allow you to make a connection on that to the CZ, Chief, and Eagle, which I really think is needed again.

 

[railfangns]

I like your Boston Crescent-Crescent timetable, however there is 1 fly in the ointment .The trains

meet at my hometown of Gainesville Ga and the problem is 1 Amtrak blocks 2 crossings every

time they stop at the station because the platform is too short at the depot.They could close one

or both of the grade crossings eliminating that problem.2 The Gainesville station became unstaffed

about 11 years ago you would have passengers getting on the wrong train unless they reman the

station.3 If both trains were on time one would have to wait outside the station area until the one

in the station departed so the other one could pull in and recieve and discharge passengers it is

double or triple track at the station but it would be dangerous for people to be crossing over

the tracks to reach a train due to heavy NS freight traffic.However the cab drivers here would

love having more Amtrak trains so they can make more $$$$ hauling people up to the mountains.

And the photography chances here would be great getting pictures of amtrak trains meeting

each other almost every day.Many of the smaller stations would have to be upgraded for amtrak

to run 2 trains daily each direction

 

[The Metropolitan]

Ironically, I happened to notice the same thing about an hour ago, and thought to myself "I wonder if that's single track, or if there's only one platform." Thanks for the info. I guess the answer would be to increase the dwell in Charlotte about 10 minutes.

I'll still need to modify almost all of 66's times anyway, so its all fun and games!

 

[rmgreenesq]

I voted for the LSL, but I'd like a one seat trip from BOS to CHI and make the New Yorkers get out at ALB.

Rick

 

[battalion51]

Three words Rick, power in numbers. :lol:

 

[Steve4031]

Thinking about my one idea, I actually spent some time fleshing it out The more I think about it, the more I like it - have a lookat this mock up:

Looking back, it seems a must to modify #66 to leave NOL 45 minutes to an hour later, time that would absorbed on the NEC (30 mins at WAS, the remainder at NYP). This would secure a reasonable connection from the Sunset, and offer ATL NB service at a more reasonable hour (630am), while putting this train more in between the Carolinian and the Piedmont.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll attempt a similar timetable for an additional LSL frequency.

I would Ride thatt round trip. That would be a fun trip. Especially with a diner on it.

 

[Rafi]

I would Ride thatt round trip. That would be a fun trip. Especially with a diner on it.

Not only would it be fun, but it makes Atlanta a perfect business destination by train from either NOL or Washington. As things are right now, I can pretty easily finagle taking the train down to Atlanta from Washington on business, as the cost of the sleeper pretty much compensates for the cost of an evening's car rental, the night at the hotel, and food. That new frequency now gives business travelers from NOL the same luxury. Instead of a wasted day, it's a moving hotel and restaurant.

Rafi

 

[AmtrakFan]

I'd go with the Lake Shore Limited, so it could run thru Ohio at Decent times.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Just for the record, there was a brief period when the Crescent (possibly when it was called the Southern Crescent) did indeed have through cars, both sleeper and coach, from Boston.

In fact it even had a through sleeper from Boston to Los Angeles. It ran three days a week, coordinated with the Sunset Limited, and it meant spending the night overnight in NOL in your room. (when you weren't out partying)

This was probably the mid-70's.

Now THAT is a ride I wish I had taken.

Goinig on back in years, there have been some trains with at least through cars from Boston to fForida.

 

[battalion51]

One of the things I really wish they would do with the Meteor is run it through to Boston. Right now the train arrives at 10:10 and the equipment doesn't go out until the next day about the same time. They very easily could run the train through to Boston and not effect times on the south end. I know there are implications as far as the number of bridge drops they can do, but it'd still be great IMHO.

 

[user 683]

For me, it was a toss up between the Lake Shore Limited and the Capital Limited. I certainly agree with all regarding ridership demand between NYC/Boston and Chicago. I have also heard many folks say they would take the train from Washington to Pittsburgh or even Cleveland if the service times were more "reasonable".

Deimos