Adding a Second LD Frequency

[daveyb99]

Thinking about my one idea, I actually spent some time fleshing it out The more I think about it, the more I like it - have a lookat this mock up:

Looking back, it seems a must to modify #66 to leave NOL 45 minutes to an hour later, time that would absorbed on the NEC (30 mins at WAS, the remainder at NYP). This would secure a reasonable connection from the Sunset, and offer ATL NB service at a more reasonable hour (630am), while putting this train more in between the Carolinian and the Piedmont.

You forgot to include a schedule for trains #819/#820 or #866/#867.

Both would cut off at MERIDIAN, MS, travel JACKSON, MONROE, SHREVEPORT, DALLAS, FT. WORTH.

Remember to include a Thru Sleeper, Thru Coach(s), Thru Diner, Thru Lounge !!!!!

 

[RailThunder]

Probably best sticking with the population and numbers. That said I would love to see an additional frequency between Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul. Preferrably over the BNSF (former Q Morning Zephyr Route) along the Missippi River.

 

[WICT106]

I think that I would like to see a second frequency over the entire Empire Builder route, and not just St. Paul - Chicago. One has to think in terms of the entire network, and not just between major population centers. Remember, there can be as much if not more traffic on the intermediate stops as from the major centers of population.

Having written that, I voted for the Capitol Ltd., as that is one train that appears to have a route made up of corridors and several significant intermediate stops.

 

[frj1983]

For me, it was a toss up between the Lake Shore Limited and the Capital Limited. I certainly agree with all regarding ridership demand between NYC/Boston and Chicago. I have also heard many folks say they would take the train from Washington to Pittsburgh or even Cleveland if the service times were more "reasonable".
Deimos

Deimos,

I have heard many people say this before (not just Chicago-East Coast, but in other areas as well) and it drives me nuts!! Why? because these are the same people who will drive many miles to the airport and then take the midnight red-eye to their destination because it is cheaper. So that excuse does not wash with me.

And: I'm going to vote for something not on the list: a second frequency from Chicago to California.

 

[Trogdor]

Deimos,
I have heard many people say this before (not just Chicago-East Coast, but in other areas as well) and it drives me nuts!! Why? because these are the same people who will drive many miles to the airport and then take the midnight red-eye to their destination because it is cheaper. So that excuse does not wash with me.

How do you know they're the same people? Have you interviewed them?

There are plenty of people that avoid red-eye flights whenever possible. Further, many red-eye flights are actually similar to an overnight train in that they leave the west coast late in the evening, and arrive in the midwest/eastern US in the morning. There are very few flights that actually depart or arrive between 01:00 and 05:00.

And: I'm going to vote for something not on the list: a second frequency from Chicago to California.

Define "California." There are already three routes that serve California from Chicago.

 

[frj1983]

Deimos,

I have heard many people say this before (not just Chicago-East Coast, but in other areas as well) and it drives me nuts!! Why? because these are the same people who will drive many miles to the airport and then take the midnight red-eye to their destination because it is cheaper. So that excuse does not wash with me.

How do you know they're the same people? Have you interviewed them?

There are plenty of people that avoid red-eye flights whenever possible. Further, many red-eye flights are actually similar to an overnight train in that they leave the west coast late in the evening, and arrive in the midwest/eastern US in the morning. There are very few flights that actually depart or arrive between 01:00 and 05:00.

And: I'm going to vote for something not on the list: a second frequency from Chicago to California.

Define "California." There are already three routes that serve California from Chicago.

OK,

You are correct, they are obviously not the same people. None-the-less, if you really want to travel, what time the train, plane, or car leaves is not going to make that much difference...you'll simply adjust.

OK, I was also imprecise, either the Southwest Chief or the California Zephyr.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I'd go with the Lake Shore Limited, so it could run thru Ohio at Decent times.

AMEN!!!

 

[Railbender]

I'd go with the Lake Shore Limited, so it could run thru Ohio at Decent times.

AMEN!!!

& PA (Erie) AMEN, AMEN!!!

If folks here could go to NY City or Chicago, or Cleveland or Buffalo leaving any time between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. either way....you wouldn't believe how busy the Erie, PA Station would be!!! We have 4 major colleges/universities in very close proximity to the station... And lots of elderly population that would love that option, I bet!

When was the last time there was a second (or more) train comparable to the Lake Shore Limited?

 

[had8ley]

Just for the record, there was a brief period when the Crescent (possibly when it was called the Southern Crescent) did indeed have through cars, both sleeper and coach, from Boston.
In fact it even had a through sleeper from Boston to Los Angeles. It ran three days a week, coordinated with the Sunset Limited, and it meant spending the night overnight in NOL in your room. (when you weren't out partying)

This was probably the mid-70's.

Now THAT is a ride I wish I had taken.

Goinig on back in years, there have been some trains with at least through cars from Boston to fForida.

Believe it or not the "Southern" Crescent would be in excess of 20 cars in busy times of the year (and the Southern kept a busy train full.) It was nearly impossible to go into the diner after leaving Atlanta heading for New York. There was a bar lounge car with two drawing rooms and a master room (the ONLY public train sleeping room with a shower at that time.) The Soutern even had 11 bedroom only cars with a real shower room at the end of the car. The Amtrak car that went from the East Coast to LA looked pretty dismal compared to the stainless steel cars that the Southern provided. I even remember curtains on the roomettes instead of sliding doors. The A/C always seemed to go out at the most critical times in the Amtrak car and the Southern sleepers were full so the poor through Amtrak passengers either smothered or rode in coach. About the only advantage to riding the Amtrak car was that it layed overnight in New Orleans and you could do the French Quarter and come back and sleep it off waiting on #1 to depart. As an added luxury the Southern Crescent pulled a dome parlor car between New Orleans and Atlanta tri-weekly. Sadly, the bean counters claimed that the losses for the train in the mid 70's were in excess of 7 1/2 million dollars. Quite a sum of money in those days. It was some time later when it was discovered that the Southern had added up all the station costs, along with the agent's salary (who also handled freight and train order paper work) into falsely showing that the train was a money pit. Almost thirty years later Amtrak is still running it seven days a week and for that I am very grateful.

 

[user 1215]

I'd like to see the Super Chief added to the SW Chief for twice daily service between Chicago and LA on the fastest route West!

 

[WICT106]

I've written it before, and I will write it again: All of the once per day routes need a second frequency of service, and the 3x per week trains need to go to once per day each way. We also need funding to alleviate the chokepoints and capacity challenges on the freight RR's ( at least on the sections of track shared by passenger and freight trains.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Just for the record, there was a brief period when the Crescent (possibly when it was called the Southern Crescent) did indeed have through cars, both sleeper and coach, from Boston.

In fact it even had a through sleeper from Boston to Los Angeles. It ran three days a week, coordinated with the Sunset Limited, and it meant spending the night overnight in NOL in your room. (when you weren't out partying)

This was probably the mid-70's.

Now THAT is a ride I wish I had taken.

Goinig on back in years, there have been some trains with at least through cars from Boston to fForida.

Believe it or not the "Southern" Crescent would be in excess of 20 cars in busy times of the year (and the Southern kept a busy train full.) It was nearly impossible to go into the diner after leaving Atlanta heading for New York. There was a bar lounge car with two drawing rooms and a master room (the ONLY public train sleeping room with a shower at that time.) The Soutern even had 11 bedroom only cars with a real shower room at the end of the car. The Amtrak car that went from the East Coast to LA looked pretty dismal compared to the stainless steel cars that the Southern provided. I even remember curtains on the roomettes instead of sliding doors. The A/C always seemed to go out at the most critical times in the Amtrak car and the Southern sleepers were full so the poor through Amtrak passengers either smothered or rode in coach. About the only advantage to riding the Amtrak car was that it layed overnight in New Orleans and you could do the French Quarter and come back and sleep it off waiting on #1 to depart. As an added luxury the Southern Crescent pulled a dome parlor car between New Orleans and Atlanta tri-weekly. Sadly, the bean counters claimed that the losses for the train in the mid 70's were in excess of 7 1/2 million dollars. Quite a sum of money in those days. It was some time later when it was discovered that the Southern had added up all the station costs, along with the agent's salary (who also handled freight and train order paper work) into falsely showing that the train was a money pit. Almost thirty years later Amtrak is still running it seven days a week and for that I am very grateful.

I did not know the 11 bedroom sleepers had a shower. I was fully aware of the master room shower of course. But that shower in the 11 bedroom car--did that get advertised much or at all? I never knew that. I never saw it advertised, I don't think---just the master room shwoer which of course had been with the original 1949-50 equipment.

 

[had8ley]

Just for the record, there was a brief period when the Crescent (possibly when it was called the Southern Crescent) did indeed have through cars, both sleeper and coach, from Boston.

In fact it even had a through sleeper from Boston to Los Angeles. It ran three days a week, coordinated with the Sunset Limited, and it meant spending the night overnight in NOL in your room. (when you weren't out partying)

This was probably the mid-70's.

Now THAT is a ride I wish I had taken.

Goinig on back in years, there have been some trains with at least through cars from Boston to fForida.

Believe it or not the "Southern" Crescent would be in excess of 20 cars in busy times of the year (and the Southern kept a busy train full.) It was nearly impossible to go into the diner after leaving Atlanta heading for New York. There was a bar lounge car with two drawing rooms and a master room (the ONLY public train sleeping room with a shower at that time.) The Soutern even had 11 bedroom only cars with a real shower room at the end of the car. The Amtrak car that went from the East Coast to LA looked pretty dismal compared to the stainless steel cars that the Southern provided. I even remember curtains on the roomettes instead of sliding doors. The A/C always seemed to go out at the most critical times in the Amtrak car and the Southern sleepers were full so the poor through Amtrak passengers either smothered or rode in coach. About the only advantage to riding the Amtrak car was that it layed overnight in New Orleans and you could do the French Quarter and come back and sleep it off waiting on #1 to depart. As an added luxury the Southern Crescent pulled a dome parlor car between New Orleans and Atlanta tri-weekly. Sadly, the bean counters claimed that the losses for the train in the mid 70's were in excess of 7 1/2 million dollars. Quite a sum of money in those days. It was some time later when it was discovered that the Southern had added up all the station costs, along with the agent's salary (who also handled freight and train order paper work) into falsely showing that the train was a money pit. Almost thirty years later Amtrak is still running it seven days a week and for that I am very grateful.

I did not know the 11 bedroom sleepers had a shower. I was fully aware of the master room shower of course. But that shower in the 11 bedroom car--did that get advertised much or at all? I never knew that. I never saw it advertised, I don't think---just the master room shwoer which of course had been with the original 1949-50 equipment.

Bill,

We came upon the 11 bedroom shower car completely by accident. We had a pass for the family in two bedrooms from New Orleans to New York but were informed by the boarding conductor in Atlanta that we had been bumped into another car. (The Southern issued green slip passes which stated that you might have to make room for revenue passengers.) It was odd being in room "H" of a sleeper which was coupled up with about 5 other cars in Atlanta to the train that came out of New Orleans. My best recollection was someone mentioning that the car was used primarily on Southern business car trains. My thoughts, at the time, was the car was being deadheaded north for a business car move and they took advantage of an oversold opportunity and used the space for revenue as well as non revenue passengers when they got in a pinch for sleeper space. We only saw the car once in our many jouneys on the "Southern Crescent." In retrospect, the trip was well enjoyed and only occurred once. To answer your question I do not think the car was ever a "regular" in consists of Southern's #1 and #2.

 

[George Harris]

Sadly, the bean counters claimed that the losses for the train in the mid 70's were in excess of 7 1/2 million dollars. Quite a sum of money in those days. It was some time later when it was discovered that the Southern had added up all the station costs, along with the agent's salary (who also handled freight and train order paper work) into falsely showing that the train was a money pit. Almost thirty years later Amtrak is still running it seven days a week and for that I am very grateful.

For someone who was a fairly regular rider of Southern passenger trains in the early to mid 60's this is not a surprise at all. It was a very normal Brosnan style game to do all that he could to kill off passenger trains by making them to appear to be financial disasters even when they weren't. Why else, would the fairly well patronised Tennessean and Pelican both get the axe before the very lightly patronised Birmingham Special? In fact, the Tennessean went first between Washington and Chattanooga and became a connection to the Pelican at Chattanooga, giving it somethin like a 2:00 am arrival in Memphis. Needless to say they could then point to a drop in ridership to kill this off. In this time fram, the Tennessean should have been profitable as a piggyback train. But if you put the whole cost against passenger revenue and foget the freight revenue, guess what, you have a loser.

George

 

[had8ley]

Just for the record, there was a brief period when the Crescent (possibly when it was called the Southern Crescent) did indeed have through cars, both sleeper and coach, from Boston.

In fact it even had a through sleeper from Boston to Los Angeles. It ran three days a week, coordinated with the Sunset Limited, and it meant spending the night overnight in NOL in your room. (when you weren't out partying)

This was probably the mid-70's.

Now THAT is a ride I wish I had taken.

Goinig on back in years, there have been some trains with at least through cars from Boston to fForida.

Believe it or not the "Southern" Crescent would be in excess of 20 cars in busy times of the year (and the Southern kept a busy train full.) It was nearly impossible to go into the diner after leaving Atlanta heading for New York. There was a bar lounge car with two drawing rooms and a master room (the ONLY public train sleeping room with a shower at that time.) The Soutern even had 11 bedroom only cars with a real shower room at the end of the car. The Amtrak car that went from the East Coast to LA looked pretty dismal compared to the stainless steel cars that the Southern provided. I even remember curtains on the roomettes instead of sliding doors. The A/C always seemed to go out at the most critical times in the Amtrak car and the Southern sleepers were full so the poor through Amtrak passengers either smothered or rode in coach. About the only advantage to riding the Amtrak car was that it layed overnight in New Orleans and you could do the French Quarter and come back and sleep it off waiting on #1 to depart. As an added luxury the Southern Crescent pulled a dome parlor car between New Orleans and Atlanta tri-weekly. Sadly, the bean counters claimed that the losses for the train in the mid 70's were in excess of 7 1/2 million dollars. Quite a sum of money in those days. It was some time later when it was discovered that the Southern had added up all the station costs, along with the agent's salary (who also handled freight and train order paper work) into falsely showing that the train was a money pit. Almost thirty years later Amtrak is still running it seven days a week and for that I am very grateful.

I did not know the 11 bedroom sleepers had a shower. I was fully aware of the master room shower of course. But that shower in the 11 bedroom car--did that get advertised much or at all? I never knew that. I never saw it advertised, I don't think---just the master room shwoer which of course had been with the original 1949-50 equipment.

Bill,

We came upon the 11 bedroom shower car completely by accident. We had a pass for the family in two bedrooms from New Orleans to New York but were informed by the boarding conductor in Atlanta that we had been bumped into another car. (The Southern issued green slip passes which stated that you might have to make room for revenue passengers.) It was odd being in room "H" of a sleeper which was coupled up with about 5 other cars in Atlanta to the train that came out of New Orleans. My best recollection was someone mentioning that the car was used primarily on Southern business car trains. My thoughts, at the time, was the car was being deadheaded north for a business car move and they took advantage of an oversold opportunity and used the space for revenue as well as non revenue passengers when they got in a pinch for sleeper space. We only saw the car once in our many jouneys on the "Southern Crescent." In retrospect, the trip was well enjoyed and only occurred once. To answer your question I do not think the car was ever a "regular" in consists of Southern's #1 and #2.

I forgot to mention the Amtrak headache you got going north of Washington. You were on Southern tracks until you hit D.C. Then it was a whole new ball game. Even though every stop north of Washington was "Discharge only" you could not make a reservation on the Southern train until twenty four hours BEFORE the train left Washington as you were in Amtrak territory. All you had to do was buy a coach ticket~ the sleeper was still free but try and explain to a new ticket agent that you needed to buy a coach ticket on a "discharge only" train. We almost got left in Atlanta trying to get our tickets and finally gave up. The Washington-New York conductor laughed at our story and said, "Don't worry about it."

 

[rtabern]

If I had to pick from those options, I'd say Coast Starlight. You could leave Los Angeles at 10pm... and get into Seattle two days later at like 8:30am. First, it would be nice because then you could get two nights on the train --- and you could connect up the coast... even if the Sunset Limited or Southwest Chief was running very late... without a stay-over in Los Angeles.

I would like to see a 2nd California Zephyr though of all the routes. It seems that train is very crowded in the summer and maybe a second run would be nice. However, you should time it so it's also daylight when going through the Rockies... like they do on 5. Maybe have one train leave at like 11am, the other at 3pm?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Sadly, the bean counters claimed that the losses for the train in the mid 70's were in excess of 7 1/2 million dollars. Quite a sum of money in those days. It was some time later when it was discovered that the Southern had added up all the station costs, along with the agent's salary (who also handled freight and train order paper work) into falsely showing that the train was a money pit. Almost thirty years later Amtrak is still running it seven days a week and for that I am very grateful.

For someone who was a fairly regular rider of Southern passenger trains in the early to mid 60's this is not a surprise at all. It was a very normal Brosnan style game to do all that he could to kill off passenger trains by making them to appear to be financial disasters even when they weren't. Why else, would the fairly well patronised Tennessean and Pelican both get the axe before the very lightly patronised Birmingham Special? In fact, the Tennessean went first between Washington and Chattanooga and became a connection to the Pelican at Chattanooga, giving it somethin like a 2:00 am arrival in Memphis. Needless to say they could then point to a drop in ridership to kill this off. In this time fram, the Tennessean should have been profitable as a piggyback train. But if you put the whole cost against passenger revenue and foget the freight revenue, guess what, you have a loser.

George

Well, somebody seemed to have it in for the Tennessean anyway, as its decline began somewhat before that, as you no doubt realize. It had been a stainless steel streamliner except for some heavyweight pullmans at the rear, when put in serivce in 1941.

However, by about 1960, the coaches and diner were all part of the Pelican and Birmingham Speical non-descript pool of mostly heavyweights, a few modernized. Its last surviving longer distance sleeper was streamlined but then so were the last surviving pullmans on the other two as well.

In otherwords, it truly ceased to be a streamliner.They stopped advertising it as such in the timetable in the mid-50's.

I have heard that its cars were needed more on the Southerner and the Washingotn-Augusta section of the Crescent. so that is good, I guess, but it sure stunk what they did to butcher the Tennessean in the meantime. I have also heard that the 1941 cars built for the Tennessean and the Southerner had only a stainless steel exterior but not stainless in the inside, thus some corrosion problems.

 

[Guest]

One of the things we tend to always refer to when regarding the LD trains is how a number of potentially key stops are passed in the middle of the night. Still another issue is that the limited supply of seats hampers room for growth on this network.
So my question to you is this: If Amtrak were to test running a second frequency on ONE of its (single) overnight LD trains for a period of one year to test its effect on demand, which train do you think would be the best to get the nod? Consider which train offers the best possibilties for growth while adding convenience to crucial markets. Another factor worth considering would be wether Superliner or Amfleet/Viewliner stock would be easier to find enough units to supply the train, or other options (such as truncating the Cardinal at WAS and using Superliners to supply Viewliners for an added frequency on one of the single level trains).

The reason I chose the single overnighters is that this experiment could be run with just two added trainsets (though I believe some like the Capitol could be accomplished with one). I realize that the Starlight is more than a 24 hour cycle, but with proper schedule, could still possibly done with two added sets. The schedule of the second frequency would be 8-16 hours opposite the existing frequency to ensure daylight stops at places where the current schedule stops at night and in the wee hours of the morning.

Some random notes:

Cardinal was not included since it is less than daily.

Silver Service was not listed, as by and large it is twice and even thrice daily in spots.

I considered adding services like the Pennsylvanian and Maple Leaf, but since these trains make most stops at decent times, opted to omit these.

How about a morning departure for the City of NOLA from CHI? It would connect with the westbound Lake Shore and provide an option to avoid a lenghty stopover in CHI. Another possibility could be a morning departure from Chicago to NYC which would make connections with the northbound City of NOLA. It would be very handy for those of us in the Buffalo-Toronto area.

Gord,

Toronto

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

One of the things we tend to always refer to when regarding the LD trains is how a number of potentially key stops are passed in the middle of the night. Still another issue is that the limited supply of seats hampers room for growth on this network.

So my question to you is this: If Amtrak were to test running a second frequency on ONE of its (single) overnight LD trains for a period of one year to test its effect on demand, which train do you think would be the best to get the nod? Consider which train offers the best possibilties for growth while adding convenience to crucial markets. Another factor worth considering would be wether Superliner or Amfleet/Viewliner stock would be easier to find enough units to supply the train, or other options (such as truncating the Cardinal at WAS and using Superliners to supply Viewliners for an added frequency on one of the single level trains).

The reason I chose the single overnighters is that this experiment could be run with just two added trainsets (though I believe some like the Capitol could be accomplished with one). I realize that the Starlight is more than a 24 hour cycle, but with proper schedule, could still possibly done with two added sets. The schedule of the second frequency would be 8-16 hours opposite the existing frequency to ensure daylight stops at places where the current schedule stops at night and in the wee hours of the morning.

Some random notes:

Cardinal was not included since it is less than daily.

Silver Service was not listed, as by and large it is twice and even thrice daily in spots.

I considered adding services like the Pennsylvanian and Maple Leaf, but since these trains make most stops at decent times, opted to omit these.

How about a morning departure for the City of NOLA from CHI? It would connect with the westbound Lake Shore and provide an option to avoid a lenghty stopover in CHI. Another possibility could be a morning departure from Chicago to NYC which would make connections with the northbound City of NOLA. It would be very handy for those of us in the Buffalo-Toronto area.

Gord,

Toronto

Interesting suggestions. Because they have happened before.

Pre-Amtrak, Pennsyvlania Railroad had a "Manhattan Limited' which left CHI around 11 a.m. ish and got to NYC next morning 7 or 8. Arch-rival New York Central probably had something similar but I can't recall just now.

Also Illinois Central had the "Louisiane" which left CHI early-mid morning and got to NOL next morning.

 

[Mike S.]

I voted for the Lake Shore Limited. With the current scheduling, a trip from Buffalo to Cleveland and back is not really practial. They are both big cities (Cleveland is bigger) and I've taken day trips to Cleveland before. However, to get to cleveland, I'd have to leave Buffalo at midnight and get into cleaveland and 3-4AM. And comming home, you leave cleveland at 3-4AM and get into Buffalo at 7am. Not a fun trip.

A LSL leaving NYP at 11pm would get into BUF at 7AM and make it to CLE by around 10-11AM. The return could leave CHI at Noon for a late afternoon run from CLE to BUF.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

While I know you are talking about making daily train doubled, it still makes a LOT more sense to me to focus on making non-daily trains daily FIRST, and also get the southern transcon route running again (Sunset East of NOL to Florida). Then we can work on getting more frequencies on existing routes.

 

[MrFSS]

While I know you are talking about making daily train doubled, it still makes a LOT more sense to me to focus on making non-daily trains daily FIRST, and also get the southern transcon route running again (Sunset East of NOL to Florida). Then we can work on getting more frequencies on existing routes.

And, getting new service to areas that have none!