Additional Service from New York/Philadelphia to Pennsylvania

[Literalman]

I read most of the report, and I didn't see anything about through service between Reading and New York, only separate Allentown-Reading and Allentown–New York services being proposed. Surely through service would attract more passengers. Reading might have its own service to New York via Philadelphia by the time anything can get established in the Lehigh Valley, but if new service can get established east and west from Allentown, additional frequencies Reading–New York and more city pairs (connecting Reading directly with Bethlehem, Easton, Phillipsburg, and North Jersey points) would benefit both lines.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I read most of the report, and I didn't see anything about through service between Reading and New York, only separate Allentown-Reading and Allentown–New York services being proposed. Surely through service would attract more passengers. Reading might have its own service to New York via Philadelphia by the time anything can get established in the Lehigh Valley, but if new service can get established east and west from Allentown, additional frequencies Reading–New York and more city pairs (connecting Reading directly with Bethlehem, Easton, Phillipsburg, and North Jersey points) would benefit both lines.

I wonder if a NY - Allentown - Reading train should be extended to Harrisburg, which besides serving Lebanon and Hershey ( a popular tourist destination) would also allow connections at Harrisburg to the Pennsylvanian and perhaps someday through service to Chicago. One can dream.

 

[railiner]

I wonder if a NY - Allentown - Reading train should be extended to Harrisburg, which besides serving Lebanon and Hershey ( a popular tourist destination) would also allow connections at Harrisburg to the Pennsylvanian and perhaps someday through service to Chicago. One can dream.

Connecting service perhaps, but the route via the Lehigh Valley would take much longer for thru trains beyond Harrisburg, than the current routing thru Philly and Lancaster…

 

[jis]

Connecting service perhaps, but the route via the Lehigh Valley would take much longer for thru trains beyond Harrisburg, than the current routing thru Philly and Lancaster…

You beat me to it.

In addition NS would charge a King;s ransom before it lets any passenger train on their primary connection to the New York area, thus making this service remarkably cost ineffective.

 

[Amtrak25]

Penn-DOT shelled out a $200 million gift to NS to in effect restore the Three Rivers on a 250 mle double track line.

Not a good omen for Allentown - Musconetcong, which is mostly single track and has no passenger station facilities, except maybe Phillipsburg (not important enough for Trans Bridge to stop there and Easton station looks like 1946 Berlin) plus bring the ex-CNJ back from nature from Musconetcong to High Bridge, NJ.

 

[UserNameRequired]

.. Easton station looks like 1946 Berlin...

I had to go look at that with maps/street view and it looks like an amazing place to go explore!

 

[jis]

PennDOT's contribution to the Reading and Allentown discussion....

https://northpennnow.com/penndot-st...lehigh-valley-to-lansdale-would-p8428-188.htm

The full report in PDF can be found here:

https://penncapital-star.com/wp-con...high-Valley-Passenger-Rail-Study-03132024.pdf

 

[BlackDiamond]

Connecting service perhaps, but the route via the Lehigh Valley would take much longer for thru trains beyond Harrisburg, than the current routing thru Philly and Lancaster…

I didn't explain it well. My proposal would only extend from Reading to Harrisburg. My reference to through trains was a restoration of something like the Broadway or Three Rivers that would run Philadelphia - Harrisburg - Chicago. So you would have to connect in Harrisburg.

I realize that with NS hostility to passenger trains and the fact that this is their major freight route from the New York area west, adding service would be an uphill battle.

 

[MARC Rider]

I didn't explain it well. My proposal would only extend from Reading to Harrisburg. My reference to through trains was a restoration of something like the Broadway or Three Rivers that would run Philadelphia - Harrisburg - Chicago. So you would have to connect in Harrisburg.

I realize that with NS hostility to passenger trains and the fact that this is their major freight route from the New York area west, adding service would be an uphill battle.

Aside from NS hostility, I think extending Allentown service through Reading, Lebanon and Hershey to Harrisburg would be a low priority if I were planning new routes in the region. The existing Keystones to Harrisburg already run at 100+ mph, and there's no way that any Lehigh Valley service would come close to being competitive for New York - Harrisburg service. Hersey is really in the Harrisburg train service catchment, so they're already decently served by the Keystones, and Lebanon could arguably be in the Lancaster service catchment of the Keystones. Yeah, sure, If thery spend the big bucks and somehow managed to muscle NS, they might be able to have a reasonably successful service, but I would think there are other new rail services in this part of the country that would have a higher priority and a better chance of success. I think those would be Philly - Reading, Philly to Allentown, and Allentown to New York, maybe with an extension to Reading. And that seems ti be what the pros in the planning world are looking at.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Aside from NS hostility, I think extending Allentown service through Reading, Lebanon and Hershey to Harrisburg would be a low priority if I were planning new routes in the region. The existing Keystones to Harrisburg already run at 100+ mph, and there's no way that any Lehigh Valley service would come close to being competitive for New York - Harrisburg service. Hersey is really in the Harrisburg train service catchment, so they're already decently served by the Keystones, and Lebanon could arguably be in the Lancaster service catchment of the Keystones. Yeah, sure, If thery spend the big bucks and somehow managed to muscle NS, they might be able to have a reasonably successful service, but I would think there are other new rail services in this part of the country that would have a higher priority and a better chance of success. I think those would be Philly - Reading, Philly to Allentown, and Allentown to New York, maybe with an extension to Reading. And that seems ti be what the pros in the planning world are looking at.

I was thinking this Harrisburg connection would primarily be to serve the Lehigh Valley area. With a metro population approaching 1 million it seems there might be enough demand for this. The alternative would be to backtrack to New York or Philadelphia to make westward connections.

Anyway I don't want to beat a dead horse - I realize that getting the obvious New York - Allentown, Philly - Allentown and Philly - Reading done will be hard enough as it is and should be the main focus of this effort.

 

[leccy]

Can anyone explain to me the "High Bridge" option? How do you get from Allentown to High Bridge on "existing freight lines"?
'

 

[railiner]

Can anyone explain to me the "High Bridge" option? How do you get from Allentown to High Bridge on "existing freight lines"?
'

Not sure, but maybe the former CNJ, that NJT used to use as far as Phillipsburg?

 

[BlackDiamond]

Can anyone explain to me the "High Bridge" option? How do you get from Allentown to High Bridge on "existing freight lines"?
'

From OpenRailwayMap it looks like there is a line partially abandoned that connects High Bridge to Washington, then you would use the Washington secondary to reach Phillipsburg. A somewhat roundabout way but it avoids the NS main line until Phillipsburg.

Looking at the map again, it looks like the RVL also continues to Phillipsburg so you don't need to use the Washington Secondary.

 

[Amtrak25]

Can anyone explain to me the "High Bridge" option? How do you get from Allentown to High Bridge on "existing freight lines"?
'

The NS, former LV, from Allentown to some point west of the Pattenburg tunnel, a shoe-fly track onto the ex-CNJ, and to High Bridge via Glen Gardner and Hampton, which is out of use and needs a total rebuilding.

I remember seeing the shoe-fly track from the Amtrak foliage special in 2016, but can't see it on Google Satellite.

The former CNJ from west of the Pattenburg connection to Phillipsburg is severed at I-78, has receded back to nature west of it, and is not an option.

 

[Septa9739]

So in reading the report, I think it got a few things right, and a few things wrong. I think that it is correct in asserting New York would be in one sense easier. Personally, I think the High Bridge alternative better. I think it would be better to run New York to Harrisburg, as that would take advantage of the extant crew and mechanical facilities. Most NYP-HAR riders would likely keep using the Keystone, but frankly there aren’t that many of them. The Hershey market is I think the more significant intermediate draw, and at that point, just finish the job. Service to Lebanon would also be a draw for the PA Dutch, who heavily utilize public transportation. Lebanon to Lancaster Thruway service should be considered.

The Philadelphia area service is a little more of a hot mess. I don’t believe the Stony Creek branch will only be six minutes more than service through Jenkintown-Wyncote. The branch is a winding mess, always has been always will be. The Manayunk/Norristown also has some nasty curves that you don’t notice because they are just beyond stations. It should, without question, be routed through Jenkintown. Additionally, as has been discussed elsewhere, this extant all diesel routing from Norristown is practically mythical. Yes a southbound connection exists, but northbound requires either miles of “wrong way” operation, or building a flyover in a tight urban area, or reconfiguring a large interlocking system. Such work is exceedingly expensive, and considering it was just redone… It would make sense for SEPTA to operate Doylestown to Center City via Norristown, because the travel time is laughable anyway, and the local connections could be more valuable. Conshohocken is an ugly drive from Doylestown, but a booming job center. The dual mode theory is shortsighted here. SEPTA owns the whole ROW. Doublestack freight is not a problem, save for bits and pieces in the Lehigh Valley. They have to rebuild the entire ROW and signal system anyway, just string the wires and save the time. The people who would use this service are commuters, so service to Market East and Suburban would be more valuable anyway. It should be scheduled with a stop at Lansdale, a stop at Jenkintown-Wyncote, and then lead or follow a West Trenton into town, stoping Fern Rock if necessary and then Temple. SEPTA has slots that can make that work. It should be unreserved, hourly, and clockface, to interface better with SEPTA, and to allow commutable times. In a crazy world, it and the Keystone, could be paid via the SEPTA Key. But this assumes, that people will buy into trails to rails. That is the real challenge to Philadelphia Service.

 

[jis]

The NS, former LV, from Allentown to some point west of the Pattenburg tunnel, a shoe-fly track onto the ex-CNJ, and to High Bridge via Glen Gardner and Hampton, which is out of use and needs a total rebuilding.

I remember seeing the shoe-fly track from the Amtrak foliage special in 2016, but can't see it on Google Satellite.

Actually it is quite visible just to the west of Bllomsbury. See near the left edge of this screenshot (copyright Google Maps)



Frankly, if they actually do the Allentown thing my bet is it would be done through Hackettstown and not via ex-CNJ. That keeps the passenger traffic completely off NS Main Lines all the way to Phillipsburg. NS might even sell or lease the Washington Secondary to Amtrak. And the PennDOT and Federal DOT can arm wrestle NS in Pennsylvania, and do whatever horsetrading needs to be done. It is quite clear that NJ will do nothing if they can help it. At least not until there is a sea change in the government in Trenton.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The Philadelphia area service is a little more of a hot mess. I don’t believe the Stony Creek branch will only be six minutes more than service through Jenkintown-Wyncote. The branch is a winding mess, always has been always will be. The Manayunk/Norristown also has some nasty curves that you don’t notice because they are just beyond stations. It should, without question, be routed through Jenkintown. Additionally, as has been discussed elsewhere, this extant all diesel routing from Norristown is practically mythical. Yes a southbound connection exists, but northbound requires either miles of “wrong way” operation, or building a flyover in a tight urban area, or reconfiguring a large interlocking system. Such work is exceedingly expensive, and considering it was just redone… It would make sense for SEPTA to operate Doylestown to Center City via Norristown, because the travel time is laughable anyway, and the local connections could be more valuable. Conshohocken is an ugly drive from Doylestown, but a booming job center. The dual mode theory is shortsighted here. SEPTA owns the whole ROW. Doublestack freight is not a problem, save for bits and pieces in the Lehigh Valley. They have to rebuild the entire ROW and signal system anyway, just string the wires and save the time. The people who would use this service are commuters, so service to Market East and Suburban would be more valuable anyway. It should be scheduled with a stop at Lansdale, a stop at Jenkintown-Wyncote, and then lead or follow a West Trenton into town, stoping Fern Rock if necessary and then Temple. SEPTA has slots that can make that work. It should be unreserved, hourly, and clockface, to interface better with SEPTA, and to allow commutable times. In a crazy world, it and the Keystone, could be paid via the SEPTA Key. But this assumes, that people will buy into trails to rails. That is the real challenge to Philadelphia Service.

I was a little confused about the reference to "Doylestown to Center City via Norristown" - I assume this is via the Stony Creek Branch? That would be a very circuitous routing.

I agree they should just bite the bullet and electrify so they can run through the commuter tunnel. This will undoubtedly upset the NIMBYs and the Don't Build Anything Anywhere Ever crowd, but no doubt they would object to the rail line itself. Perhaps the use of clean electric instead of those nasty smoking Diesels will mollify some. Since the right of way was 2 tracks, I think a single track should fit and still allow room to keep the trail. This should only require single tracking from Quakertown into Bethlehem which should still allow a decent schedule.

I have attached below the latest schedules I could find for service Bethlehem to Philadelphia (1976) and Philadelphia to Pottsville/Reading (1971). For a new service a number of the stations south of Jenkintown would be skipped - Logan, Tabor, Tioga, Nicetown and Spring Garden St. no longer exist, and North Broad is not the important interchange it used to be, instead there would be a stop at Fern Rock and possibly Temple U.

 

[Amtrak25]

They could use the ALP45DP locos that EXO in Montreal has (15 of them), now that there is no longer AC electrification in Montreal, not that they are for sale, or that anything in Pennsylvania will happen within 10 years.

 

[jis]

They could use the ALP45DP locos that EXO in Montreal has (15 of them), now that there is no longer AC electrification in Montreal, not that they are for sale, or that anything in Pennsylvania will happen within 10 years.

Or they could simply acquire appropriate DEMU sets. The world is absolutely awash with those these days. Indeed NJT should have acquired those instead of the ALP45DPs if they had half a brain and were not fixated on locomotive hauled trains more appropriate for perhaps the cornfields of Iowa and Nebraska.

 

[MARC Rider]

By the time any of this service comes online, dual mode Airo trainsets should be available, so the lack of electrification beyond Lansdale or Norristown should not be a problem.

 

[PVD]

What electrical system would be in play? I don't recall the EXO units having 12.5 KV capability.

 

[Amtrak25]

Before we think about DEMU trains or just plain, old fashioned diesel shuttles, think about the fact there is no track headed to either Philly or New York.

I don't know a thing about the situation in getting to Philly, but either Hackettstown or High Bridge, forget it. That is even more unlikely than the Lackawanna Cutooff, which at least does not involve NS, just NJT's foot dragging and procrastination to Andover.

 

[Amtrak25]

What electrical system would be in play? I don't recall the EXO units having 12.5 KV capability.

The NJT ones can run on any voltage with 25 or 60 cycles. I don't know about the Montreal ones. 25 cycle transformers is the major issue. No way is SEPTA going to convert to 60, nor is Amtrak.

Maybe GO Transit will buy them if they electrify anything, but I suspect they like to buy new, not Montreal hand-me-downs. Montreal is who bought GO's cast-offs in the past.

 

[PVD]

The NJT ones can run on any voltage with 25 or 60 cycles. I don't know about the Montreal ones. 25 cycle transformers is the major issue. No way is SEPTA going to convert to 60, nor is Amtrak.

Maybe GO Transit will buy them if they electrify anything, but I suspect they like to buy new, not Montreal hand-me-downs. Montreal is who bought GO's cast-offs in the past.

yes, my comment should have read 12kv 25hz, which is the sticking point I was thinking about.

 

[jis]

The NJT ones can run on any voltage with 25 or 60 cycles. I don't know about the Montreal ones. 25 cycle transformers is the major issue. No way is SEPTA going to convert to 60, nor is Amtrak.

Not *any* voltage. Just 25kV and 12kV. Why would SEPTA wish to acquire Exo's old architecture locomotives with two prime units to **** around with when they are already pretty committed to Siemens at this point? I am sure they could scare up a dual mode electric and diesel in short order for SEPTA if so requested. See for example:

https://www.mobility.siemens.com/gl...ling-stock/locomotives/vectron/dual-mode.html

But then again. they should skip that and simply go for EDMUs if they must run trains from diesel outer zones into the center city tunnels. As I said they are pretty much available off the shelf from each of the major suburban train equipment manufacturers. Minimal development if any, needed.
[/quote]
Maybe GO Transit will buy them if they electrify anything, but I suspect they like to buy new, not Montreal hand-me-downs. Montreal is who bought GO's cast-offs in the past.
[/QUOTE]
Or they could palm them off to some other standard gauge country which has 25kV electrification and standard gauge. I am quite certain they use transformers that would work fine with 50Hz since it would be crazy to source a small batch of only 60Hz capable transformers.