Adirondack Business Class

[Blackwolf]

Having been a passenger on The Adirondack several times, riding the full route between NYP and MTR before taking other routes through Canada on VIA Rail (both east to Halifax on The Ocean and west on the Windsor Corridor to connect with The Canadian through to Vancouver,) I have come to wonder why such a popular train has not been graced with the upgrade choice of Business Class. The times I've been on this train, it has either been very full or completely sold out. Plus a large number of the passengers rode all the way across the border, more than the two Amfleet II cars designated as the full-route cars lashed to the rear of the consist would hold, meaning some of the MTR passengers who boarded in southern New York State had to ride in a less comfortable Amfleet I seat the whole route.

Which makes me wonder. If the Maple Leaf provides an upgraded service choice, why not Adirondack? It would undoubtedly be popular, provide more revenue space with an added car, and make for an even more enjoyable trip for those who opt to notch up their service class.

Is it because of a car shortage with the right seating arrangement? Is it because the route is financed by New York State? Perhaps it is train length? I'll likely be on the route again this Spring traveling south and into the States with my wife before connecting with the Westbound LSL for Chicago, and I can assure you that if the class was offered, I would upgrade in an instant. I'm assuredly not the only one.

 

[Anderson]

I think it has to do with two things:

1) The "to-Montreal" passengers are supposed to be in long distance Amfleet coaches, which provides at least as much legroom as normal BC. This doesn't always happen when the number of folks going to Montreal soars high enough, but it's what is supposed to be the case. An upgrade beyond this would require some sort of seating in the vein of either the former Custom class (2-1 seating) or the "old" parlor cars from pre-Amtrak (with either 2-1 seating or 1-1 seating), none of which Amtrak really has to spare.

2) Customs wants folks who are crossing the border to be in as few cars as possible as close to one another as possible, and a BC car might result in a group either being separated from the rest or, failing that, would at least force them to process an extra car.

 

[Blackwolf]

I think it has to do with two things:

1) The "to-Montreal" passengers are supposed to be in long distance Amfleet coaches, which provides at least as much legroom as normal BC. This doesn't always happen when the number of folks going to Montreal soars high enough, but it's what is supposed to be the case. An upgrade beyond this would require some sort of seating in the vein of either the former Custom class (2-1 seating) or the "old" parlor cars from pre-Amtrak (with either 2-1 seating or 1-1 seating), none of which Amtrak really has to spare.

2) Customs wants folks who are crossing the border to be in as few cars as possible as close to one another as possible, and a BC car might result in a group either being separated from the rest or, failing that, would at least force them to process an extra car.

Yup, my experience has been the last two cars on the Adirondack are long-distance Amfleet II coaches for MTR passengers unless something occurs where Amtrak has to substitute, and aside from the all-too-familiar issues with the restrooms quickly being overrun with over use, they are decently comfortable. In the vein of curiosity, I have to wonder what became of the Club and First Class cars from the Metroliner days prior to Acela taking the lead on the NEC. Did they become reconfigured, re-purposed, or are they languishing somewhere? You'd only need three cars set aside, two for service on each consist and one for reserve in case something breaks or needs maintenance.

I digress.

It would be nice if all three international trains had an upgraded class; the Maple Leaf and Cascades have Business Class available, but Adirondack seems neglected as a market. Granted, I am interested in seeing just how well the Wi-Fi works if I get the opportunity. Customs agents have to walk the entire train anyhow, as passengers traveling over the border frequently seem to exceed the capacity of the two LD cars. Adding an additional car with a small number of seats (sold at a premium for added $$$ to Amtrak) is something that DHS and CBP should not have a say in. If they wanted to really add a challenge for Customs, they'd re-introduce the checked luggage service that went away with the discontinuence of D&H's Montreal Limited and Laurentian in 1971. I'd love to see that come back!!

 

[AlanB]

In the vein of curiosity, I have to wonder what became of the Club and First Class cars from the Metroliner days prior to Acela taking the lead on the NEC. Did they become reconfigured, re-purposed, or are they languishing somewhere? You'd only need three cars set aside, two for service on each consist and one for reserve in case something breaks or needs maintenance.

The Metroliner First Class cars are today's Club-Dinette cars, those business class cars with the 2 & 1 seating. Although there are more Club-Dinette cars than there were Metroliner FC cars. They took out half the seats from the Metroliner FC cars and put in tables on one end. Viola, a Club-Dinette.

Then Amtrak took other cafe cars and either pulled out half the tables or what ever else was on one end, took the other half of those FC seats pulled out and put them into that car. Viola, another Club-Dinette.

Which is why during the Acela brake debacle, Club-Dinette's became very scarce for a few months as Amtrak converted many of them back into Metroliner FC cars so as to maintain some sort of premium service on the NEC.

 

[Anderson]

I think it has to do with two things:

1) The "to-Montreal" passengers are supposed to be in long distance Amfleet coaches, which provides at least as much legroom as normal BC. This doesn't always happen when the number of folks going to Montreal soars high enough, but it's what is supposed to be the case. An upgrade beyond this would require some sort of seating in the vein of either the former Custom class (2-1 seating) or the "old" parlor cars from pre-Amtrak (with either 2-1 seating or 1-1 seating), none of which Amtrak really has to spare.

2) Customs wants folks who are crossing the border to be in as few cars as possible as close to one another as possible, and a BC car might result in a group either being separated from the rest or, failing that, would at least force them to process an extra car.

Yup, my experience has been the last two cars on the Adirondack are long-distance Amfleet II coaches for MTR passengers unless something occurs where Amtrak has to substitute, and aside from the all-too-familiar issues with the restrooms quickly being overrun with over use, they are decently comfortable. In the vein of curiosity, I have to wonder what became of the Club and First Class cars from the Metroliner days prior to Acela taking the lead on the NEC. Did they become reconfigured, re-purposed, or are they languishing somewhere? You'd only need three cars set aside, two for service on each consist and one for reserve in case something breaks or needs maintenance.

I digress.

It would be nice if all three international trains had an upgraded class; the Maple Leaf and Cascades have Business Class available, but Adirondack seems neglected as a market. Granted, I am interested in seeing just how well the Wi-Fi works if I get the opportunity. Customs agents have to walk the entire train anyhow, as passengers traveling over the border frequently seem to exceed the capacity of the two LD cars. Adding an additional car with a small number of seats (sold at a premium for added $$ to Amtrak) is something that DHS and CBP should not have a say in. If they wanted to really add a challenge for Customs, they'd re-introduce the checked luggage service that went away with the discontinuence of D&H's Montreal Limited and Laurentian in 1971. I'd love to see that come back!!

If you get to a situation that you've got three or more trains per day running into MTR (One from Boston, the Adirondack, and some form of revived Montrealer), that might actually happen. Honestly, in the absence of a respectable-speed train to Montreal (the Adirondack north of Albany does not qualify as this), the lack of an overnight train on the route makes me very unhappy and makes planning such a trip borderline hell from anywhere south of WAS.

In the vein of curiosity, I have to wonder what became of the Club and First Class cars from the Metroliner days prior to Acela taking the lead on the NEC. Did they become reconfigured, re-purposed, or are they languishing somewhere? You'd only need three cars set aside, two for service on each consist and one for reserve in case something breaks or needs maintenance.

The Metroliner First Class cars are today's Club-Dinette cars, those business class cars with the 2 & 1 seating. Although there are more Club-Dinette cars than there were Metroliner FC cars. They took out half the seats from the Metroliner FC cars and put in tables on one end. Viola, a Club-Dinette.

Then Amtrak took other cafe cars and either pulled out half the tables or what ever else was on one end, took the other half of those FC seats pulled out and put them into that car. Viola, another Club-Dinette.

Which is why during the Acela brake debacle, Club-Dinette's became very scarce for a few months as Amtrak converted many of them back into Metroliner FC cars so as to maintain some sort of premium service on the NEC.

Two questions:

1) Did Metroliner FC cars have the "cafe" area in the middle? I'm guessing so from what you're saying, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

2) Where (other than 66/67 and the Maple Leaf) are Club-Dinettes in use?

 

[J-1 3235]

2) Where (other than 66/67 and the Maple Leaf) are Club-Dinettes in use?

The Downeaster

 

[OBS]

The Vermonter also has a split club for Business class.

 

[Donctor]

Empire stuff / Ethan Allen

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I believe some of the midwestern trains also use the 2-1 set up in Horizon cars.

 

[AlanB]

Two questions:

1) Did Metroliner FC cars have the "cafe" area in the middle? I'm guessing so from what you're saying, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Yes. It was in the middle, unlike the Acela's where the prep area is at the end of the car.

2) Where (other than 66/67 and the Maple Leaf) are Club-Dinettes in use?

Maple Leaf, Downeaster, Empire Service, Pennsy (for a while), Palmetto (at least for a while, not sure if it still has one) most of the trains out of Chicago (although some of the Club-Dinette cars are Horizon cars, not Amfleets, but they still got the seats from the Metroliners), Missouri River Runners (again could be Horizon or AMF), and I think even the one single level Pacific Surfliner has a Club-Dinette. I should also mention that the seats were recovered and modernized a bit too, but the frames are original.

 

[Donctor]

Maple Leaf, Downeaster, Empire Service, Pennsy (for a while), Palmetto (at least for a while, not sure if it still has one) most of the trains out of Chicago (although some of the Club-Dinette cars are Horizon cars, not Amfleets, but they still got the seats from the Metroliners), Missouri River Runners (again could be Horizon or AMF), and I think even the one single level Pacific Surfliner has a Club-Dinette. I should also mention that the seats were recovered and modernized a bit too, but the frames are original.

Neither the Pennsylvanian nor the Palmetto seems to have run with club/dinettes after the consist change last fall.

 

[AlanB]

Maple Leaf, Downeaster, Empire Service, Pennsy (for a while), Palmetto (at least for a while, not sure if it still has one) most of the trains out of Chicago (although some of the Club-Dinette cars are Horizon cars, not Amfleets, but they still got the seats from the Metroliners), Missouri River Runners (again could be Horizon or AMF), and I think even the one single level Pacific Surfliner has a Club-Dinette. I should also mention that the seats were recovered and modernized a bit too, but the frames are original.

Neither the Pennsylvanian nor the Palmetto seems to have run with club/dinettes after the consist change last fall.

Which is why I added "for a while" meaning that they used to run with those cars.

 

[montgomerySutton]

If you get to a situation that you've got three or more trains per day running into MTR (One from Boston, the Adirondack, and some form of revived Montrealer), that might actually happen. Honestly, in the absence of a respectable-speed train to Montreal (the Adirondack north of Albany does not qualify as this), the lack of an overnight train on the route makes me very unhappy and makes planning such a trip borderline hell from anywhere south of WAS.

Absolutely agreed... I would try to take this trip once a year or so now -- but I would easily make it 2 or 3 times as frequently if I could do an overnight train from NYP to Montreal. Has this ever even been tried?

 

[AudenHoggart]

If you get to a situation that you've got three or more trains per day running into MTR (One from Boston, the Adirondack, and some form of revived Montrealer), that might actually happen. Honestly, in the absence of a respectable-speed train to Montreal (the Adirondack north of Albany does not qualify as this), the lack of an overnight train on the route makes me very unhappy and makes planning such a trip borderline hell from anywhere south of WAS.

Absolutely agreed... I would try to take this trip once a year or so now -- but I would easily make it 2 or 3 times as frequently if I could do an overnight train from NYP to Montreal. Has this ever even been tried?

Wasn't the Montrealer overnight between NYP and Montreal?

 

[Anderson]

If you get to a situation that you've got three or more trains per day running into MTR (One from Boston, the Adirondack, and some form of revived Montrealer), that might actually happen. Honestly, in the absence of a respectable-speed train to Montreal (the Adirondack north of Albany does not qualify as this), the lack of an overnight train on the route makes me very unhappy and makes planning such a trip borderline hell from anywhere south of WAS.

Absolutely agreed... I would try to take this trip once a year or so now -- but I would easily make it 2 or 3 times as frequently if I could do an overnight train from NYP to Montreal. Has this ever even been tried?

Wasn't the Montrealer overnight between NYP and Montreal?

It was. I don't recall why precisely it got the axe, but years of track troubles in Vermont may have killed ridership (especially with the Adirondack likely being more reliable), and I think VT might have meddled as well.

 

[SubwayNut]

The Montrealer, running on an overnight schedule (via New London at the time instead of Springfield) was replaced by the daylight route Vermonter we have on June 1, 1995 when (I assume) cuts threatened the discontinuation of the Montrealer and the Vermont Agency of Transportation stepped in to fund the train as a 403 and wanted it on a daylight schedule (what state funding the operation would fund a train who's schedule was designed for passengers going through the state, not too the state). The tracks from St. Albans north to Montreal were (and still are) in terrible shape so that part of the route was abandoned and thruway bus service connected (as a regularly scheduled Vermont Transit route) to Montreal until that was discontinued a few years ago.

Can't you connect same-day from the Adirondack to the Ocean?

 

[TCRT]

Can't you connect same-day from the Adirondack to the Ocean?

According to relevant timetables, it doesn't look like it, but it's close. The Adirondack arrives at 7:10PM but the Ocean departs at 6:30PM. Re-timing the Adirondack to leave one hour earlier at 7:15AM instead of 8:15AM (which, coincidentally, is when the Maple Leaf currently departs) would perhaps allow this, but it would still be tight. Leaving even earlier from NYP (currently the exclusive domain of the Carolinian, Cardinal, and Palmetto) might make such a thing work, but I would wonder what the effects on ridership might be.

 

[Palmland]

Although I do miss the 2/1 BC cars on the Palmetto, the change to a full cafe and AmII coach for BC has provided needed additional capacity as the BC was often full during the northern part of its run. A trip a couple weeks ago had 22 in BC into Richmond from the south - more than the 18 capacity of the 2/1 cars.

Train 66/67, the overnight train from Boston/Washington/NewportNews still has them. But their removal from the Palmetto and Pennsylvanian means they are currently stored (unless sent to Beech Grove for modification). I suspect the real reason is that NY state doesn't want to finance an extra car and there may be an operating issue with a longer train - more power required or siding / station capacity to handle a longer train.

 

[NY Penn]

IINM there were also issues with the customs checks at Rouses Point: they only wanted a certain number of cars with passengers.

 

[afigg]

Can't you connect same-day from the Adirondack to the Ocean?

According to relevant timetables, it doesn't look like it, but it's close. The Adirondack arrives at 7:10PM but the Ocean departs at 6:30PM. Re-timing the Adirondack to leave one hour earlier at 7:15AM instead of 8:15AM (which, coincidentally, is when the Maple Leaf currently departs) would perhaps allow this, but it would still be tight. Leaving even earlier from NYP (currently the exclusive domain of the Carolinian, Cardinal, and Palmetto) might make such a thing work, but I would wonder what the effects on ridership might be.

Moving the Adirondack to an even earlier departure from NYP would make connections from the south on an early Regional or Acela, NJ Transit, and LIRR more difficult. Looking at the schedule, the #110 Regional departing WAS at 4 AM and #2150 Acela departing WAS at 5 AM are connecting trains to the Adirondack. Don't how people from WAS do this, but there are likely some in PHL or WIL who use these connecting trains.

The Adirondack should see some trip time reductions with the funded track upgrades on the NYP to Schenectady section and maybe some with the bypass 2nd track project south of Saratoga Springs. A major trip time reduction of an hour or more could be achieved if an agreement can be reached to have all the US and Canadian customs inspections and screening done at the Montreal station and not at the border. I would think that they would use most, if not all, of what trip time reductions they get for an earlier arrival in Montreal, not so much for connections to VIA trains, but because an earlier arrival before diner time would get more passengers.

 

[Anderson]

Per the above: The Adirondack is already a nightmare to connect to. If they moved it much earlier, I'd be inclined to beg Amtrak to just run the train through from WAS and do an engine swap somewhere so that travel to/from MTR from points other than New York was practical.

Actually, I'm wondering how much business the Adirondack could pick up from originating in WAS. If they could get the trip time down by a noticeable amount (IIRC there are plans for this in the works), using the saved time to extend the train over Amtrak-controlled trackage to WAS would pick up a big through market.

 

[NY Penn]

Another good question is how much business a WAS-NYP-MTR night train might get.

TO Canada

06:00 PM WAS

09:30 PM NYP

07:30 AM MTR

FROM Canada

09:00 PM MTR

06:30 AM NYP

10:00 AM WAS

 

[Blackwolf]

Improving the situation for Customs would work both ways. Since you are now loosing anywhere from just shy of two hours to more than three on occasion at the border for CBP officers to do their job, gaining all of that back to get the train in on its scheduled arrival/departure would be enormous to efficiency. It would mean not having to readjust the NYP departure, and could allow for a later departure from Montreal to allow for connections in Canada (both for the Ocean east and west, and for Corridor connections to Ottawa, Toronto and the like.)

Customs would be much faster when land-based. Not to mention, having a dedicated facility would allow multiple international trains. And the reintroduction of checked baggage service!!

 

[AlanB]

Per the above: The Adirondack is already a nightmare to connect to. If they moved it much earlier, I'd be inclined to beg Amtrak to just run the train through from WAS and do an engine swap somewhere so that travel to/from MTR from points other than New York was practical.

Actually, I'm wondering how much business the Adirondack could pick up from originating in WAS. If they could get the trip time down by a noticeable amount (IIRC there are plans for this in the works), using the saved time to extend the train over Amtrak-controlled trackage to WAS would pick up a big through market.

The problem with any scenario involving WAS is that you either have to run the train out to Queens and around the Sunnyside loop, or everyone gets to ride backwards for part of the trip.

A train leaving Washington with any type of engine on the front arrives into NY of course with the engine still on the front. However, to go to Albany and eventually MTR, the train is now facing the wrong way in Penn Station, the engine needs to be on what was the rear of the train coming up from DC. Now that problem can be solved with a cab car. But again, it means an operation like the Keystones, where you either ride backwards from NYP to PHL and then forwards PHL to HAR or vice versa.

Otherwise the only other alternative is to send the train to Queens and loop it at Sunnyside so that it's now facing in the correct direction to get to Albany. And that's a big waste of time; not to mention that I can just hear passenger complaining when the arrive back at Penn Station 20 minutes after they left it.

 

[afigg]

Per the above: The Adirondack is already a nightmare to connect to. If they moved it much earlier, I'd be inclined to beg Amtrak to just run the train through from WAS and do an engine swap somewhere so that travel to/from MTR from points other than New York was practical.

Actually, I'm wondering how much business the Adirondack could pick up from originating in WAS. If they could get the trip time down by a noticeable amount (IIRC there are plans for this in the works), using the saved time to extend the train over Amtrak-controlled trackage to WAS would pick up a big through market.

If you want a through train to Montreal from WAS and south of NYP, the Vermonter might be a better bet to provide that in a few years. If, of course, if Vermont can extend the Vermonter to Montreal. Slower way to get there, but it will get there the same day. On the other hand, if an hour and a half is taken off the Vermonter trip time from NYP to St. Albans with the funded NHV to St. Albans improvements, and if Montreal is 2 hours from St. Albans, not that much slower than the current Adirondack 10:55 time.

In 2009, NY state submitted a HSIPR ARRA application for $23.5 million for track and signal improvements including 60 to 79 mph speeds between Schenectady and Rouses Point that, if I read it correctly, would cut 12.5 minutes off the trip time, although it also states a 16 minute savings in trip delay times. That application was not selected. It also states, BTW, "Since 2006, CP and NYSDOT have jointly invested approximately $45 million to replace approximately forty-eight miles of track with Continuously Welded Rail (CWR), laying the groundwork for this final push to implement higher passenger train speeds." So there have been improvements to the CP tracks, but the speed improvements haven't been realized awaiting funding for signal upgrades. The application also states that the normal customs inspection stop time at Rouses Point in 2008 averaged 75 minutes with a high of 145 minutes.

So, if NYP-Schenectady trip times can be cut by 15 minutes, another 15-20 minutes Schenectady to Rouses Point (both time savings guesses may be on the low side), and an 60-75 minutes are saved by having both customs inspection take place in Montreal, the Adirondack trip time could perhaps be cut by possibly 2 hours. The Adirondack schedule could be adjusted to leave NYP 30-60 minutes later, providing for later connections from WAS to NYP and get to Montreal an hour plus earlier. Would certainly increase ridership and demand for the train.

It is worth noting that the Adirondack On-Time Performance in December was 88.7%, so there have been improvements to the route.