AGR Sleeper Reservations Cancellation Policy (Rescinded)

[Jim G.]

If I book a sleeper for 20,000 points and I have to cancel, I lose all my points. If I book a sleeper for 20,000 points and Amtrak cancels my train, do I get my 20,000 points back plus another 20,000 since THEY canceled, or is this just a one-sided "shake down".

 

[jis]

I bet it is just a one sided shakedown. Afterall Amtrak is really not any different from any other transportation bureaucracy.

 

[PRR 60]

I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards. I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.

And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.

I know you defend Amtrak to the Nth degree no matter what, but suggesting that this new policy is OK because you "strongly suspect" they will have some hidden policy that will allow exceptions at the discretion of agents is simply not acceptable. Even if that were true, I can't make travel decisions based on the hope that Amtrak has some undocumented, double-secret rule that allows someone to override the public policy if they feel like it.

Come on, Alan. Say it. This new policy stinks! Amtrak, in this case, is wrong! I know you want to. It will feel good.

 

[PRR 60]

What is interesting to me is that with both the paid fare refund policy and now the AGR award travel cancellation policy, Amtrak has hammered the long distance sleeper passengers far worse than any fare class. With paid travel, sleeper passengers can only get a 90% refund from the point the reservation is made, and cannot get any refund 14 days or less before the date of travel. At least with paid travel, you can get a voucher for full value toward future travel. Of course, we sadly know the new deal for AGR travel.

Compare that to Acela First Class. Both paid and AGR travel is fully refundable right up to the time of departure. Cancel a 10:00am Acela First Class trip at 9:55am and you get all your money or points back. Cancel a July 20 sleeper trip on July 7, and you get nothing back. What does that tell you about who Amtrak thinks is the most valuable passenger.

 

[crescent2]

I wasn't aware of the huge difference in cancellation policy (Acela vs sleeper) mentioned by PRR60. This makes me feel even worse! I do intend to write AGR and Amtrak about the new policy. Posting on FB couldn't hurt, either.

So, at present, the only (partial) way to try to protect your points is to pay for the reservation in cash, then change it to AGR points closer to departure time (but not "at the last minute," BEFORE 14 days out, which still gives zero protection for the last 15 days)? But you'll only get 90% of your money back? An e-voucher would do me no good because I would not ever have occasion to use it. GRRR

My HH points have transferred to AGR, but now I'm hesitant to make my reservations. Not liking this. Call this panic if you must, but had I known of this policy change before I transferred all those HH points, I probably would not have transferred them. Too late now.

I am very pro-Amtrak, but this policy does stink and they need to hear about it from everyone who doesn't like it! (If there's anyone out there who does like it, I guess they need to hear from you, too, to be fair.)

 

[crescent2]

Just checked the regular forum and found one answer to my above question in Post #41:

"Doug Varn has been named General Manager for long-distance services."

I'm about to introduce myself to Mr. Varn for starters.

 

[RRrich]

All those points/miles that transfer 1:1 to AGR (UR, Starpoints, etc) will NOT be transferred until required. My AGR mastercard is no longer in my wallet.

If this is panicking, so be it but I find myself guided by two principles 1) Do not allow temporary inconveniences to cause you to suffer long-term consequences, and 2) What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

 

[calwatch]

I think that a 10% deduction in points, equivalent to the penalty for a paid trip, would be fair. As for my trips, I am going to be more inclined to book even later than usual. Thus, instead of Amtrak selling that roomette at a high bucket, I may be taking the last one, and they get no paid revenue.

 

[jis]

All those points/miles that transfer 1:1 to AGR (UR, Starpoints, etc) will NOT be transferred until required. My AGR mastercard is no longer in my wallet.

If this is panicking, so be it but I find myself guided by two principles 1) Do not allow temporary inconveniences to cause you to suffer long-term consequences, and 2) What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

I use my AGR Mastercard mostly for Amtrak related expenses only. Since I get Eqlite Qualifying Points for passing certain thresholds on my United President Plus Card, I tend to charge almost everything to that card, and it also has no foreign exchange fee, so is good for charging in foreign currency too, which I happen to do quite a bit of for various reasons. So no I am not chaning my behavior about anything as a result of this obviously ill advised move by Amtrak.

 

[Blackwolf]

Here is the letter I've sent:

Dear Amtrak Guest Rewards,

Add me to the list of very concerned Amtrak Guest Rewards members. The new policy change that imposes a draconian penalty for having to cancel a sleeper reservation within a 15-day window of travel is unacceptable. The minimalist clarification that no difference will be calculated between a voluntary cancellation and one that is borne from true emergency on the customer's part is absolutely offending. I am far from alone in this feeling, and the numbers of detractors would be incredibly massive from likely every AGR member if all of them were aware of this new change. If you are looking to reduce the number of people who are willing to be members in the program, and in a round-a-bout way reduce the number of customers riding your system, this new policy being instituted is a very effective way of starting.

Especially when combined with the numerous other changes within the last 4 months.

My advice, and I sincerely hope there are willing ears to listing on AGR's side, is to drop the new policy. Loosing thousands of points, of which has likely taken years and many thousands of dollars of Amtrak spending to accumulate, because someone was forced to cancel a trip without any recourse is ridiculous. This is not the industry standard, and it makes a formerly attractive program quite the opposite now. It also penalizes the Long-Distance first class rider, something Amtrak should not be doing by any margin. I can completely sympathize that reducing the number of people suddenly canceling sleeper reservation trips without penalty is needed. May I recommend that, instead of forcing members to forfeit all of their points, that a 10% penalty be instituted? This could either be through points deducted, or through a percentage of the cash value of the room being canceled at the current price bucket in ARROW. Certainly less ideal than the no penalty system in effect until January 1st, but massively better than this troubling new policy being instituted.

Thank you for your attention into this matter. Coming from a dedicated supporter of the Amtrak system, I know you value hearing from your passengers and members. I hope that level heads will prevail, and a reconsideration can be made.

 

[Bob Dylan]

As a retired Government hand who spent many years in the DC Puzzle Factory, I am very familiar with how bad Policies such as this are arrived at! A "working Group" or "task force" (or whatever the current term is that they are using in WAS is?)comes up with a brilliant idea! Then lacking experienced, strong Leadership, such as existed (exists?)@ Amtrak , this ill advised policy is implemented! The biggest problem with this model of operation is that there is zero chance for feedback or input from the stakeholders/customers/clients until after these bad ideas become policy!

Possibly if enough Amtrak Customers utilize the available methods of communicating with 60 Mass , this Policy will be modified or even withdrawn and revamped allowing input from us? :help: (But don't bet the mortage on it!) Hopefully the new GM Mr. Varn (and other Senior managers) whom I m sure some of our members know, will be open to taking a look @ this ill advised policy! :unsure:

 

[Ispolkom]

Even going to a straight points/dollar value conversion at $.02/point outside of rule busters or something in that vein wouldn't really be the end of the world (and it would allow them to cram down a decent liability sitting on their books).

I've often wondered why AGR doesn't go for a points per dollar method for AGR awards, like Southwest Airlines' Rapid Rewards. It would get rid of the complaints that different agents quote different costs for the same trip and it would eliminate anomalies in pricing (why does New York-Chicago cost the same number of points as Chicago-Los Angeles-Seattle).

If most redemptions are one-zone coach, it shouldn't be hard to fix the ratio so that it's a wash for them. It would hurt me, personally, but I couldn't expect AGR to worry about the interests of someone who is devoted to gaming their system.

What is interesting to me is that with both the paid fare refund policy and now the AGR award travel cancellation policy, Amtrak has hammered the long distance sleeper passengers far worse than any fare class.

That makes sense to me. Riders in the Northeast Corridor and the Chicago area have other travel options, such as Megabus and airlines. If you're a long-distance sleeper passenger, like I am (probably 98% of my Amtrak travel is in a sleeper), Amtrak is the only game in town. The make things more restrictive for us, because they can.

 

[AlanB]

Just checked the regular forum and found one answer to my above question in Post #41:

"Doug Varn has been named General Manager for long-distance services."

I'm about to introduce myself to Mr. Varn for starters.

June,

I rather suspect that Mr. Varn has anything to do with this policy at all and I'm not sure what he could do about it since he's the manage of long distance services, not AGR.

I think that you'd be far better served by writing to Amtrak's President Mr. Joseph Boardman and/or Mr. Michael Blakey the head of the AGR program. Both can be reached by simply writing to their attn at the general address for Amtrak.

 

[AlanB]

The make things more restrictive for us, because they can.

As already noted by Anthony, they didn't do it "just because they can"; they did it because it would appear that there are enough people taking advantage of the liberal policy and booking trips that they may or may not take and tying up valuable inventory. So we're all paying the price because some chose to abuse the system.

The question now is why did they need to bring a sledgehammer out to fix the problem when a tap hammer probably could fix the problem?

 

[Anderson]

The other thing Amtrak could have done is "stage" the refundability in two or three tiers (such as, say, 100% refundable up to 15 days, 80% 15 days-7 days, 50% refundable 7 days-24 hours, and 0% 24 hours and beyond). Basically...they could have done several different things that would've both been less drastic and less annoying, from a tiered non-refundability/non-exchangability system to a point return fee to just, you know, a major hike in the point cost for sleepers over the course of a few years. If it's a handful of users doing a nasty abuse of things, why not just limit the number of short notice LD point refunds you can get in a given year?

Edit: The other thing that I'm a bit annoyed at being missing is the lack of a 24-hour guaranteed "fix" window. That is frustrating because of how many things can be involved in pulling a trip together. This is one area where I know VIA has a leg up on Amtrak with their booking system (though as I've notes, Amtrak's voucher policy is effectively the same for me).

 

[Ispolkom]

The make things more restrictive for us, because they can.

As already noted by Anthony, they didn't do it "just because they can"; they did it because it would appear that there are enough people taking advantage of the liberal policy and booking trips that they may or may not take and tying up valuable inventory. So we're all paying the price because some chose to abuse the system.

You seem much more comfortable with moral labels than I. What does "liberal" or "abuse" mean to you? How is an abuse of the system to follow the rules, even if my actions do not allow Amtrak to maximize its revenue? Is it an abuse of the system that next week my AGR award begins at Wolf Point, the zone boundary, and not at my departure point further east? Is it an abuse of the system that I booked the trip back in March, before bedroom redemption costs went up?

More to the point, isn't the same behavior that is "abuse" when sleeper passengers do it just as prevalent with Acela tickets? Why are sleeper passengers singled out? Are they we an especially degenerate lot? Or is it the case that Acela has competition, and Amtrak doesn't have as free a hand in rectifying the perceived problems in its rewards program with Acela passengers as it does with those of us who ride sleepers far from 60 Massachusetts Ave? You seem to have data, so I'd love to know.

The question now is why did they need to bring a sledgehammer out to fix the problem when a tap hammer probably could fix the problem?

Perhaps a sledgehammer wielded in flyover country "appears" like a tap hammer in 60 Massachusetts Avenue.

 

[crescent2]

Good for you, Blackwolf!

Thanks, Alan, for the names in Post #63. They will certainly receive letters, and I still intend to include Mr. Varn. LD is his "baby" so anything that affects LD ridership is of interest to him, and he likely has some influence with Mr. Boardman and Mr. Blakey.

I encourage others to let their feelings about this policy be known to those with decision-making authority or influence. If they aren't aware of a problem, they can't/won't fix it.

 

[AlanB]

June,

Actually since AGR probably pays Amtrak less money for rooms, or at least the low bucket price, Mr. Varn would probably be happier if AGR wasn't taking away rooms from customers paying directly for the rooms. I'm sure that he could sell those rooms for more than AGR is paying Amtrak for said rooms.

Regardless, I suspect that Mr. Varn being newly appointed to the post will be far too busy to really care about this matter. He's got his work cut out for him already just trying to deal with and improve the long distance service, rather than spending time on a matter that he has little control over.

I'm not saying don't write him; I just think that he'll have almost no influence, if any, on what happens.

 

[Linda T]

What irks me most about this policy is that I booked my Sept. '13 trip on election day. I was told in no uncertain terms that I would be able to cancel the trip right up to the time the train departs the station. So I spent 40,000 points (2-2 zone roomette redemptions), hopefully nothing will go wrong next September.

Today, I read on FB about this new policy, and that if we cancel within 15 days of travel we'll lose all our points. I called AGR and they assured me that I'd get my points back as long as I called before 9PM the day the train departs, so I asked the guy for his source -- then decided to check here. I found the original source and it clearly states "Any new or existing redemption..." Grrr... I obviously have every intention to take this trip -- I simply LOVE to be on the train. But like everyone else, there's always something that can happen at the last minute. When one needs to take the Cardinal to get just about anywhere, and one's traveling in a roomette, one can't wait till just before departure to buy a ticket.

 

[Shanghai]

I don't like the policy change but understand why the change is being made.

I would like to see a couple of exclusions like a death in family or serious illness.

I am currently in a situation where I must cancel a trip that I booked two months

ago (coast to coast & return all in sleeper accommodations) due to a death in

our family. It would be a nice jester if I could postpone and rebook the trip at

a later time rather than to completely lose my AGR points.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I don't like the policy change but understand why the change is being made.

I would like to see a couple of exclusions like a death in family or serious illness.

I am currently in a situation where I must cancel a trip that I booked two months

ago (coast to coast & return all in sleeper accommodations) due to a death in

our family. It would be a nice jester if I could postpone and rebook the trip at

a later time rather than to completely lose my AGR points.

Sorry to hear of your loss.

 

[dlagrua]

I can understand Amtrak's desire to maximize revenue but the firm non-cancellation policy for AGR trips within a 15 day window needs to be changed. In many cases travelers encounter unexpected circumstances that cause trips to be canceled. Many of us here have elderly parents. In the likelihood that they take seriously ill or pass away; can anyone blame us for canceling? My point is that there should be some exceptions for travelers who need to cancel AGR trips under special circumstances like sickness, and family emergencies.

Accepting that the new cancellation policy holds firm, and that the AGR trip can be transferred (didn't know that it could), I suggest that we set up a new forum area for canceled and available AGR trips. Some trips require 30,000 points and that represents a large potential loss. Rather than give them away and have the member lose everything, the trips could be offered at a minimal cost so at least the ticket owner is not faced with a total loss. If AGR members were offered even 1/2 of the standard low bucket ticket price it may result in better situation for everyone. How does everyone feel about this?

 

[PRR 60]

I can understand Amtrak's desire to maximize revenue but the firm non-cancellation policy for AGR trips within a 15 day window needs to be changed. In many cases travelers encounter unexpected circumstances that cause trips to be canceled. Many of us here have elderly parents. In the likelihood that they take seriously ill or pass away; can anyone blame us for canceling? My point is that there should be some exceptions for travelers who need to cancel AGR trips under special circumstances like sickness, and family emergencies.

Accepting that the new cancellation policy holds firm, and that the AGR trip can be transferred (didn't know that it could), I suggest that we set up a new forum area for canceled and available AGR trips. Some trips require 30,000 points and that represents a large potential loss. Rather than give them away and have the member lose everything, the trips could be offered at a minimal cost so at least the ticket owner is not faced with a total loss. If AGR members were offered even 1/2 of the standard low bucket ticket price it may result in better situation for everyone. How does everyone feel about this?

Selling AGR award travel violates AGR rules and, if caught, the member who sold the trip can have their account cancelled and all remaining points forfeited. That is the same policy as exists with airline programs, and airlines use some pretty sophisticated tools to find suspicious transactions. I have to admit that losing all points for cancelled travel makes the risk of selling more attractive, but I am sure that AU would not support such an exchange forum. I'm not even sure that AGR award trips can have the passenger name changed.

I am hopeful that AGR will reconsider this policy. When they find out how far they are out of the norm set by the airline programs, I hope that they will adjust things to be more competitive. A $100 redeposit fee for cancellations or changes less than 15 days prior to travel would be fine with me (and, by the way, apply that to all travel, not just sleeper). I am willing to accept some risk. All I want is flexibility to make changes if needed without having to depend on the mercy of an agent. Losing all points for the trip is a non-starter for me. This policy, if it stands, will end my long distance travel on Amtrak, and will effectively end the usefulness of AGR in my travel and vacation planning.

 

[crescent2]

Alan, thanks. I'm still going to write all three of them. If for no other reason, he needs to know that Amtrak riders do pay attention to policy and know what the industry standards are. A little reminder that customer satisfaction is important can't hurt.

Shanghai, I'm so sorry for your loss. Prayers for you and your family.

diagrua: I didn't know an AGR redemption could be transferred to another person, either. Are you sure? If so, I think your idea is a good one. Even a slim chance of the trip matching another person's need is better than none. But Amtrak really needs to CHANGE their policy!

Edit:

PRR60: I wrote my reply before yours posted. I figured the awards would not be transferrable. Let's see if Amtrak/AGR can be persuaded to change this ridiculous policy.

 

[AlanB]

AGR Insider over at FT has been heard from regarding this change in policy.

You can view the reply here.