Airline fare and class discussion

[railiner]

All of the domestic airlines, with the exception of AA’s NY<>CA flights, have eliminated first class, and top out at business class, although some do offer a third “extra room” coach category…

 

[AmtrakBlue]

All of the domestic airlines, with the exception of AA’s NY<>CA flights, have eliminated first class, and top out at business class, although some do offer a third “extra room” coach category…

Really? This is Delta.

 

[Trogdor]

All of the domestic airlines, with the exception of AA’s NY<>CA flights, have eliminated first class, and top out at business class, although some do offer a third “extra room” coach category…

It’s international where US carriers have eliminated first. Domestically, they all call it first with few exceptions.

 

[jis]

All of the domestic airlines, with the exception of AA’s NY<>CA flights, have eliminated first class, and top out at business class, although some do offer a third “extra room” coach category…

The major US carriers all have First Class on domestic flight. They have or are in the process of getting rid of First Class on international overseas flights But each of them has a JV partner which offers international First Class Suites of some variety or the other.

 

[Anderson]

The major US carriers all have First Class on domestic flight. They have or are in the process of getting rid of First Class on international overseas flights But each of them has a JV partner which offers international First Class Suites of some variety or the other.

To be fair, International First has always been a different animal vs Domestic First.

Of course, the US is goofy in calling Domestic First "First". In much of the rest of the world, the relevant class would be called Business.

 

[jis]

To be fair, International First has always been a different animal vs Domestic First.

Of course, the US is goofy in calling Domestic First "First". In much of the rest of the world, the relevant class would be called Business.

Well, in Europe what is called Business is effectively an Economy Seat with the middle seat blocked off on most airlines. So given that standard the US ones are indeed First Class

 

[Anderson]

Well, in Europe what is called Business is effectively an Economy Seat with the middle seat blocked off on most airlines. So given that standard the US ones are indeed First Class

This is true. Interestingly, at least on BA you get a "full meal" on flights that would never get more than a drink+snack in the US (e.g. I remember getting finger sandwiches and tea on BA on both DUB-LHR and BRU-LHR...the latter might not even get in-flight beverage service in F on some US operations).

[I remember there was a big deal that BA, IIRC, leased a couple of planes from one of the ME3 to deal with an equipment shortage...so those planes had an "actual" premium cabin.]

 

[Cal]

Really? This is Delta.
View attachment 31887

Pretty sure that’s domestic first, which isn’t “first class” in the way we think of it. It’s basically just a larger seat with better meals. the OP meant that few offer lie flat or considerably better seats anymore, other than American (who is phasing it out soon anyway).

 

[jis]

Pretty sure that’s domestic first, which isn’t “first class” in the way we think of it. It’s basically just a larger seat with better meals. the OP meant that few offer lie flat or considerably better seats anymore, other than American (who is phasing it out soon anyway).

Both United and Delta offer lie flat seats in First Class on selected domestic flights. I am booked on one from Orlando to Newark in a couple of weeks.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Pretty sure that’s domestic first, which isn’t “first class” in the way we think of it. It’s basically just a larger seat with better meals. the OP meant that few offer lie flat or considerably better seats anymore, other than American (who is phasing it out soon anyway).

Well, I'm old and since I have never flown first class, I still think of the 2 x 2 wider seats with meal as First Class.

 

[jebr]

First class on airlines is about as consistent as business class on Amtrak.

 

[Anderson]

Both United and Delta offer lie flat seats in First Class on selected domestic flights. I am booked on one from Orlando to Newark in a couple of weeks.

What I think I've seen, in general, is that while United and Delta will have lie-flats on some flights, they won't (necessarily) have a marketed equivalent to Domestic First on the same flights. For example, Delta will generally have:
Domestic: Main Cabin, Comfort+, and First Class
International: Main Cabin, Comfort+, Premium Select, and Delta One

[Note: I am ignoring "Basic Economy" as a "cabin" as those seats are Main Cabin seats, just on a restrictive ticket.]

Where things get...odd...is with those Domestic Delta One flights, where you end up with Premium Select being dropped (probably due to some mix of booking system complications and ticket interactions). And of course, this is also ignoring situations where you get an internationally-configured widebody on another route and the lie-flats just get sold as First.

 

[nti1094]

All of the domestic airlines, with the exception of AA’s NY<>CA flights, have eliminated first class, and top out at business class, although some do offer a third “extra room” coach category…

Mostly correct, however united has a ton of flights with 777-300’s and 787-10 and 787-9 planes configured with inter nation Polaris. I live in memphis but always if going to SFO fly to IAH and change to the one or two Dreamliners they run daily on the route. It’s the Auckland flight, they turn it and run the domestic tag then turn it to run to Aisha or Australia and cycle back the other way. They do that in every hub, probably to dump in their marketers and protect their turf, but I love taking advantage of it. The Dreamliner (and probably, though have yet to fly one, the A350) totally change the flying experience. Truly the biggest leap in aerospace since the 747. They are incredible machines. So incredibly quiet, feels solid, I have never seen a plane hit turbulence and hold so solid in it, or not landed with dry eyes or dry mouth. Don’t get me wrong 9 times out of 10 Intake Amtrak (yes I use long distance trains not as a land cruise, I use them to travel) but if I have to get somewhere or bedrooms are offensively overpriced, I will fly. I always download the PDF (updated monthly)from the United Cargo website that lists every widebody flight in the US. It’s amazing how many they fly. From that timetable I then go book one of those flights.

 

[jis]

What I think I've seen, in general, is that while United and Delta will have lie-flats on some flights, they won't (necessarily) have a marketed equivalent to Domestic First on the same flights. For example, Delta will generally have:
Domestic: Main Cabin, Comfort+, and First Class
International: Main Cabin, Comfort+, Premium Select, and Delta One

[Note: I am ignoring "Basic Economy" as a "cabin" as those seats are Main Cabin seats, just on a restrictive ticket.]

Where things get...odd...is with those Domestic Delta One flights, where you end up with Premium Select being dropped (probably due to some mix of booking system complications and ticket interactions). And of course, this is also ignoring situations where you get an internationally-configured widebody on another route and the lie-flats just get sold as First.

United sells lie flats simply as first on flight flown by international hard product, except for PS flights. We have several International 757 flown flights between MCO and EWR as domestic First.

 

[Anderson]

United sells lie flats simply as first on flight flown by international hard product, except for PS flights. We have several International 757 flown flights between MCO and EWR as domestic First.

I flew on an International 787 LAX-IAH after the last PPC run. 2-2-2 is an...odd...config for that bird.

(DL ends up with "straight First" International 777s/767s domestically. MCO-ATL is a surprisingly common routing. I used to take advantage of that on ATL-SEA...PHF-ATL-SEA with a bed on the long leg was nice.)

 

[jiml]

Unlike their US partner UA, Air Canada follows the Euro model of calling the domestic front cabin Business for all of North America including the Caribbean and Mexico. You get the non lay-flat seats and "meh" meals (or no meal at all depending on distance). However, if you can nail one of the occasional wide-bodies on a domestic route they call it Signature Service and charge a premium for enhanced service. A domestic aircraft on an international route sees the front cabin sold as Premium Economy.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Pretty sure that’s domestic first, which isn’t “first class” in the way we think of it. It’s basically just a larger seat with better meals.

In my experience domestic first is a bigger seat, better pitch, expanded beverages, cleaner restroom, priority boarding, priority security, priority check-in, priority luggage, priority standby/re-booking, etc. If you're a tall person who dislikes waiting in lines it's a godsend. It's also nice to pay one inclusive price that avoids a bunch of nickle and dime nonsense. Ironically the one thing I almost never see are actual meals. Even when I'm flying to the East or West coast it's usually a snack tray or snack box.

the OP meant that few offer lie flat or considerably better seats anymore, other than American (who is phasing it out soon anyway).

I have not seen life flat seating domestically (other than repositioning flights) and nobody is getting rid of lie flat seating on long haul flights (that I know of). I think this change only applies to a tiny percentage of domestic flights from NYC/WDC to California.

First class on airlines is about as consistent as business class on Amtrak.

To be fair first class on AA, DL, and UA is more consistent than anything I've seen on Amtrak.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

When I read the OP's post I was all like 'wha....??" - I flew to Grand Junction over the weekend and there was certainly first class on three of the flights (actually had a 737 to Junction - flight back was regional/commuter jet).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

When booking a domestic flight on AA I confirmed that "First Class" purchases are coded as "J" and booked as Business. I had to go back to December 2019 to find a domestic trip that was still coded and booked as "First Class" below the surface. AA's new long haul Flagship Suite looks modern and tasteful (see below). I like the colors and design better than standard Business on All Nippon Airways, but this brings up a potentially interesting observation. While "First Class" as a product has been vanishing for years the concept behind it still remains in some form. For instance, ANA has a standard Business Class product on moderate yield routes but features "THE Room" for premium routes. In a similar vein JL's "Sky Suite" can be three different products depending on the route. The hard product found on a premium route in Business Class is in many ways just a denser version of what First Class used to provide. We may not have supersonic travel or true First Class but with modern 150Mbps in-flight Internet I can work faster than even a Concorde could deliver me.

AA Flagship Suite

The upcoming Premium Economy cabin looks similar to the current setup with new colors, larger screens, and a bit more privacy.

AA Premium Economy

I understand why people are hesitant to give up what we have now but I might be willing to give cabins like these a chance on Amtrak if the price and service were competitive (feels like a big IF though).

 

[jis]

I flew on an International 787 LAX-IAH after the last PPC run. 2-2-2 is an...odd...config for that bird.

That is the outgoing Type 1 layout with the old Diamond Seats in as delivered state on the oldest 787-9s. They are being converted to Type 2 layout with Polaris pods and those are 1-2-1.

I really like the 1-1-1 layout Polaris on the TATL 767s.

(DL ends up with "straight First" International 777s/767s domestically. MCO-ATL is a surprisingly common routing. I used to take advantage of that on ATL-SEA...PHF-ATL-SEA with a bed on the long leg was nice.)

Incidentally AA is getting rid of its International First Class Suite, the last of the US3 to do so. It is going with the Flagship Suite Business Class product instead, which is more or less similar to Delta One or United Polaris.

Maenwhile Lufthansa just unveiled their Alegris First Class Suite Plus product which will be launched in their A350 fleet starting in 2024. That one seems to be right up there in the same category as Emirates and Etihad Suites.

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/n...suite-plus-private-room-above-the-clouds.html

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Maenwhile Lufthansa just unveiled their Alegris First Class Suite Plus product which will be launched in their A350 fleet starting in 2024. That one seems to be right up there in the same category as Emirates and Etihad Suites.

The last few years have been a weird look for LH. First they retire nearly everything with a First Class cabin, only to un-retire the same aircraft after failing to meet contractual obligations. Then they start refurbishing soon-to-be-retired aircraft for reasons unexplained. Then they aim for the moon with the best hard product available while leaving the soft product to rot and die. LH was a great mid-market option with above-average service in the before times, but post-pandemic reviews have been absolutely scathing.

Speaking of the ME3 the new AA Flagship Suite above looks a lot like a Qatar Business Suite below.

I'm a fan of reverse herringbone suites and I'd be willing to try this if it lines up for a future trip.

 

[jis]

Speaking of the ME3 the new AA Flagship Suite above looks a lot like a Qatar Business Suite below.

I'm a fan of reverse herringbone suites and I'd be willing to try this if it lines up for a future trip.

Stands to reason since afterall AA is now aligned with Qatar, isn't it?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Stands to reason since afterall AA is now aligned with Qatar, isn't it?

I had no awareness of this and I'm still out of sync in the post-pandemic era. After several tedious and awkward trips in 2021 and 2022 I finally regained my travel legs at the beginning of 2023, over two decades after routine travel became common for me. I realize I do not travel as often as some but it was still odd and confusing to feel like a travel novice again. Here's hoping the future is reasonably predictable again.

 

[jis]

I had no awareness of this and I'm still out of sync in the post-pandemic era.

The US3-ME3 alignments look as follows:

1. AA - QR
2. UA - EK
3. DL - ?

Of course the only one of the classic Gulf States ME3 left to pick is Etihad.

After several tedious and awkward trips in 2021 and 2022 I finally regained my travel legs at the beginning of 2023, over two decades after routine travel became common for me. I realize I do not travel as often as some but it was still odd and confusing to feel like a travel novice again. Here's hoping the future is reasonably predictable again.

I felt similarly disoriented when I first flew in August last year, and that was a trip to India that involved a giant IROPS, being rerouted and rebooked by UA from a EWR - (UA) - DEL - (Vistara) - CCU, to EWR - (UA) - MUC - (LH) - BOM - (AI) - CCU arriving almost exactly 24 hours later, all due to a UA mechanical issue at EWR. UA did provide hotel and food in Newark.

But since then I have managed to get more into the groove though I am not traveling anywhere near as much as I did before the pandemic. There are some blessings that come with retired life I suppose. Now it is only pleasure flying, and not much business flying.

 

[andytiedye]

JetBlue Mint is technically Business Class, but with lie-flat seats and real meals.