Alarm tone sound with emergency brake? (Downeaster)

[SheilaAverbuch]

Hello all,

Forgive me for the basic question. I am writing a children's book for readers aged 12+, and although it's set in the future with lots of advanced tech, I would like the scene that's set on the Downeaster to be as real as possible, and very close to what's there now.

Can anyone let me know: is there an audible noise that would sound if the emergency brake were activated on the Downeaster? Many thanks!

Cheers

Sheila

 

[Seaboard92]

The only audible noise I’m aware of is the air dumping from the main reservoir.

 

[Rasputin]

I have been on several trains over the years which have gone into emergency. The only thing I noticed in each case in the passenger cars was a rapid slowdown to a stop.

 

[zephyr17]

No alarm sounds in passenger cars. Occasionally I've heard the pop and psst of the air. You feel a relatively strong deceleration, but not nearly as strong as standing on the brakes in a car.

 

[Steve4031]

Sometimes you can smell a the wheels heated up from the breaking. I recall the Capitol Limited going into emergency break application after we hit some debris on the track. After the train stopped my gf at the time asked me if the train was on fire because she thought she smelled smoke. I explained what happened was an emergency brake application. The word Emergency alarmed get more. It depends on the travel experience of the people involved in the scenario.

 

[railiner]

I am not certain, but I believe in certain newer types of cars (perhaps transit?), before pulling the brake valve, you must first pull away some type of cover, that will sound a loud audible alarm, to guard against accidental or malicious activation of the brake, not to mention calling attention to other's to see who is doing it...
Escalator's have had a similar type of protection of their stop button for a long time.

 

[SheilaAverbuch]

Sometimes you can smell a the wheels heated up from the breaking. I recall the Capitol Limited going into emergency break application after we hit some debris on the track. After the train stopped my gf at the time asked me if the train was on fire because she thought she smelled smoke. I explained what happened was an emergency brake application. The word Emergency alarmed get more. It depends on the travel experience of the people involved in the scenario.

@Steve4031 I love the smell thing - thank you!

 

[SheilaAverbuch]

No alarm sounds in passenger cars. Occasionally I've heard the pop and psst of the air. You feel a relatively strong deceleration, but not nearly as strong as standing on the brakes in a car.

@zephyr17 that's great thanks. In my book, characters are standing in the vestibule when the emergency brakes go. Is it realistic for them to be injured, bloody nose, broken arm? I really want a hard and rough stop but not sure if that's realistic.

 

[SheilaAverbuch]

Hello all, while I'm at it, folks -- what are your thoughts on how much of the Downeaster could be controlled totally electronically, without manual intervention? As I mentioned, my book is set in the future, so MAYBE none of the following would be a problem, but I'd be interested in how much of the following functionality is possible now, WITHOUT manual intervention:

1. Can emergency brake be activated electronically or must it be manually done? (an evil person in my book is trying to remotely, electronically hit the brakes -- is that possible, or totally fiction?)
2. Can external doors be opened electronically or do they need a person to physically open them?
3. Can internal doors be operated by a button? I rode the Downeaster in early June and tried to check all of this, but I have gaps in my notes.

Thank you for putting up with all my rookie questions!

 

[zephyr17]

@zephyr17 that's great thanks. In my book, characters are standing in the vestibule when the emergency brakes go. Is it realistic for them to be injured, bloody nose, broken arm? I really want a hard and rough stop but not sure if that's realistic.

Not in a normal emergency brake application. It is a quick stop but not that hard. You'd have to have a derailment for that.

I've been on several trains that have gone into emergency. In none of them did passengers sustain any injury.

 

[zephyr17]

Hello all, while I'm at it, folks -- what are your thoughts on how much of the Downeaster could be controlled totally electronically, without manual intervention? As I mentioned, my book is set in the future, so MAYBE none of the following would be a problem, but I'd be interested in how much of the following functionality is possible now, WITHOUT manual intervention:

1. Can emergency brake be activated electronically or must it be manually done? (an evil person in my book is trying to remotely, electronically hit the brakes -- is that possible, or totally fiction?)
2. Can external doors be opened electronically or do they need a person to physically open them?
3. Can internal doors be operated by a button? I rode the Downeaster in early June and tried to check all of this, but I have gaps in my notes.

Thank you for putting up with all my rookie questions!

An emergency brake application happens when the train brake line loses pressure. One of the most common reason is the air line connectors between cars breaks apart. The connectors between the cars are "glad hands" and designed to come free under stress rather than tear. Kids leaving a pile of rocks on the tracks can do it. Running over a shopping cart can do it. The engineer obviously can dump the air, and those emergency brake handles dump the air. The engineer will only do emergency braking if there is something or someone on the tracks. It is discouraged because it can cause flat wheels because the wheels can freeze and skid rather than roll.

Trains going into emergency is not uncommon though. The worst consequence is usually delay, not injury, as the train has to be inspected by the conductor before proceeding.

On one trip the train went into emergency because duct tape that was patching the brake line came off. I heard it in discussions between the conductor doing the inspection and the head end on my scanner. They repaired it by applying new duct tape.

On most Amtrak equipment (Superliner, Amfleet, Horizons and Talgos. Can't speak to Acelas, or Surfliners) doors between cars can be manually operated, though it can take a bit of muscle. Normal operation is you use a pressure pad on the door which triggers pneumatic opening. Exterior doors can be manually opened. On Superliners, at least, they are entirely manual. You turn handles to release the door. Don't recall Amfleets or others. I've ridden a lot more Superliners than anything else.

I think for what you want in terms if character injury you are talking derailment, not an emergency brake application.

 

[SheilaAverbuch]

An emergency brake application happens when the train brake line loses pressure. One of the most common reason is the air line connectors between cars breaks apart. The connectors between the cars are "glad hands" and designed to come free under stress rather than tear. Kids leaving a pile of rocks on the tracks can do it. Running over a shopping cart can do it. The engineer obviously can dump the air, and those emergency brake handles dump the air. The engineer will only do emergency braking if there is something or someone on the tracks. It is discouraged because it can cause flat wheels because the wheels can freeze and skid rather than roll.

Trains going into emergency is not uncommon though. The worst consequence is usually delay, not injury, as the train has to be inspected by the conductor before proceeding.

On one trip the train went into emergency because duct tape that was patching the brake line came off. I heard it in discussions between the conductor doing the inspection and the head end on my scanner. They repaired it by applying new duct tape.

On most Amtrak equipment (Superliner, Amfleet, Horizons and Talgos. Can't speak to Acelas, or Surfliners) doors between cars can be manually operated, though it can take a bit of muscle. Normal operation is you use a pressure pad on the door which triggers pneumatic opening. Exterior doors can be manually opened. On Superliners, at least, they are entirely manual. You turn handles to release the door. Don't recall Amfleets or others. I've ridden a lot more Superliners than anything else.

I think for what you want in terms of what you need to do for character injury you are talking derailment, not an emergency brake application.

Ugh, ok, thank you! A derailment won't work in the story sadly ( because, and here I'm causing even more problems for myself, I'd like the train to split once it's stopped and only the forward cars keep going). I wonder if I'll just have to go totally fiction and put a disclaimer in the end notes!

Btw here is a video I took in the vestibule. Do these external doors look totally manual to you? How would someone standing at the doors know whether the door external doors are locked or open? Thank you for all your help @zephyr17 !

 

[zephyr17]

That's an Amfleet and I think the panel operates the door and it electrical. I don't see the dogging handles that Superliners have, plus I think they are pocket doors, the don't swing inward like those on Supeiners. I do know that Amfleet doors are not remotely operated and even if electrically operated, that has to be done by crew member standing there. I'll be on an Amfleet train (Maple Leaf) in November I'll take a closer look. You've got my curiosity up. One of the eastern members, where Amfleets commonly operate, may want to chime in.

As to an emergency brake application would not ordinarily cause a passenger train to break in two (somewhat more likely on a freight train).

The movie Silver Streak notwithstanding, remember that emergency braking takes place when pressure is lost in the train air brake line. If the train breaks in two, air pressure by definition is lost and the brakes clamp on on both halves of the train since both have lost pressure. In order for the front half to proceed, the air line valve (angle c-ck, iirc) on the last car if the front half must be closed. This is a manual operation and had to be done from the exterior of the train. The engineer could then charge the air line and release the brakes on the front half.

 

[SheilaAverbuch]

That's an Amfleet and I think the panel operates the door and it electrical. I don't see the dogging handles that Superliners have. I do know that Amfleet doors are not remotely operated and even if electrically operated, that has to be do by crew member standing there. I'll be on an Amfleet train (Maple Leaf) in November I'll take a closer look. You've got my curiosity up. One of the eastern members, where Amfleets commonly operate, may want to chime in.

As to an emergency brake application would not ordinarily cause a passenger train to break in two (somewhat more likely on a freight train).

The movie Silver Streak notwithstanding, remember that emergency braking takes place when pressure is lost in the train air brake line. If the train breaks in two, air pressure by definition is lost and the brakes clamp on on both halves of the train since both have lost pressure. In order for the front half to proceed, the air line valve (angle c-ck, iirc) on the last car if the front half must be closed. This is a manual operation and had to be done from the exterior of the train. The engineer could then charge the air line and release the brakes on the front half.

Oops, @zephyr17, just to clarify: in my story, emergency stopping doesn't 'break' the train, it's a later action by the bad guy, a hacker. First, bad guy emergency-stops the train. Everyone is evacuated. I guess both of these could be done by what hackers call social engineering (convincing a human to take an action by lying to them, so maybe the conductor could be fooled into both stopping and evacuating the train). Then, a few scenes later, the bad guy splits the train (somehow! hopefully with an electronic signal, because by now, the conductor has also left the train). I've tried to research how train cars are decoupled, and I *think* it is done with an electronic signal, so it's feasible that a hacker could do this. I am deeply in the realm of sci-fi now, though, I think! I would welcome any feedback, and thank you for letting me access your brain!

 

[ehbowen]

Set your story fifty years in the future and you can get away with almost anything. Of course, when dealing with railroading you've got to be careful. Take a railroader from 1949 and set him down on almost any Class 1 line today and he'd be right at home after only a few weeks' catch-up...maybe even just days!

 

[Seaboard92]

If you want to do some research I could see if a friend of mine at a tourist railroad in the southeast would let you shadow operations. It’s really easy to open doors in all honesty on the older equipment that’s mostly retired.

As far as splitting the train on stopping with one part going on. As long as the air releases from the whole train to get it going. And the angle **** is closed on the moving side of the split it would work.

Granted there is no way to access the angle **** while moving, and it can only be done by hand.

I’m a writer too by the way.

 

[SheilaAverbuch]

@zephyr17 @Seabord92 thank you both so much (that's great btw @seabord92 -- what do you write? Thank you too for the offer of shadowing but I am in Scotland, to make things even more complicated!): I've re-read what you said there, Zephyr17, and I understand now (I think) that the front half could not go on without manual intervention on the exterior of the train. Ok. Another question if you don't mind -- could the ENTIRE train start moving again, following an emergency brake application, without manual intervention?

Maybe @ehbowen I should take your advice and set this way in the future! But the problem is that I am in near-final edits, and I'm under contract with a publisher, and that would trash the whole story and I'd miss my deadline. The problem is that I'd like the train to be able to operate driverlessly and do a WHOLE lot of stuff that's computerized and electronic. But that's not the Downeaster of today. If anyone is interested, I just read this interview with the Chief Innovation Officer at SNCF (France) on their plans to order its first driverless trains by 2023. I'll upload the PDF here so you don't need to go through registration etc at that site: I'd love to know what you all think about driverless: good, bad, ugly?

 

[ehbowen]

Maybe @ehbowen I should take your advice and set this way in the future! But the problem is that I am in near-final edits, and I'm under contract with a publisher, and that would trash the whole story and I'd miss my deadline. The problem is that I'd like the train to be able to operate driverlessly and do a WHOLE lot of stuff that's computerized and electronic. But that's not the Downeaster of today. If anyone is interested, I just read this interview with the Chief Innovation Officer at SNCF (France) on their plans to order its first driverless trains by 2023. I'll upload the PDF here so you don't need to go through registration etc at that site: I'd love to know what you all think about driverless: good, bad, ugly?

Maybe not fifty years in the future, but perhaps two or three--or even in the here and now as long as you specify a "point of divergence" a couple of years in the past. You see, while the Downeaster is operated by Amtrak, it's actually sponsored (and paid for) by the state of Maine (you can find more information elsewhere on this forum from some knowledgeable folks). So, for the purposes of your story, just state that the powers-that-be in Maine got fed up with Amtrak's clunky old equipment from the 1970s and operating procedures from the 1870s and allowed themselves to be seduced by a high-tech start-up company into re-equipping the train and automating its operation. Of course, there are still a few bugs in the system...or perhaps some disgruntled employee has absconded with a copy of the keys to the kingdom....

In the Real World, automated operation is a non-starter in the litigious environment of the USA, unless you're talking about operations entirely within fenced-in yards or industrial operations...no trespassers, no grade crossings. But, for the purposes of your story...well, these high-tech companies (which have never accomplished anything in the Real World!) can spin a proposal which sounds most enticing to decision makers who likewise are insulated from reality....

 

[Acela150]

As far as splitting the train on stopping with one part going on. As long as the air releases from the whole train to get it going. And the angle **** is closed on the moving side of the split it would work.

Granted there is no way to access the angle **** while moving, and it can only be done by hand.

I'm dying here! LOL! It censored something that isn't supposed to be censored. Although, I follow the logic.

 

[lstone19]

Not in a normal emergency brake application. It is a quick stop but not that hard. You'd have to have a derailment for that.

I've been on several trains that have gone into emergency. In none of them did passengers sustain any injury.

"Emergency" is really just the name for the maximum performance brake setting. It does not imply there is some sort of dire emergency and that the train stops instantly and sends bodies flying. Train brakes are designed to be fail-safe so a failure of a component of the braking system can cause an emergency brake application. That, along with other things that might cause an engineer to put the train in emergency (someone or something fouling the track such as a pedestrian or automobile) makes it an everyday occurrence (I would be surprised in Amtrak ever had a day with no train having an emergency brake application). To the extent that you (the OP) or the general public thinks its rare and therefore to the news media, newsworthy, is because they aren't aware just how common it is.

As to the OP's technology questions, while there has been technology added to improve train handling, at their core, for most trains, brakes are largely unchanged for 100 years and can function just fine strictly with air. That will be true of any Amtrak train of today designed to be coupled to other standard railroad equipment. But as others have said, since you're setting this in the future, feel free to design your own equipment that has new features and doesn't need to be compatible with today's standard railroad equipment.

 

[Qapla]

Keep in mind ... it is your book and your train - you can have it do whatever you want since this is a fiction story. Most people reading such a story would not know if trains really run and operate like the one in your book.

I have read many books that the story sounds good and the action is "fun" - even if it is fictitious ... that usually doesn't matter in the long run.

If you want your train to stop so fast it throws people to the floor, have it do that. If you want it to be able to move on after blowing off and disconnecting half the train - make it happen. Your train can do whatever you want your train to do even if the real thing cannot do that - most people reading the book won't care if it is 100% accurate ... as long as the story is entertaining and mostly believable.

Look at how popular the Jack Reacher books are - and many of the things in those stories could never happen and don't work quite the way Lee Child portrays them ... but, readers don't care.

 

[railiner]

Keep in mind ... it is your book and your train - you can have it do whatever you want since this is a fiction story. Most people reading such a story would not know if trains really run and operate like the one in your book.

I have read many books that the story sounds good and the action is "fun" - even if it is fictitious ... that usually doesn't matter in the long run.

If you want your train to stop so fast it throws people to the floor, have it do that. If you want it to be able to move on after blowing off and disconnecting half the train - make it happen. Your train can do whatever you want your train to do even if the real thing cannot do that - most people reading the book won't care if it is 100% accurate ... as long as the story is entertaining and mostly believable.

Look at how popular the Jack Reacher books are - and many of the things in those stories could never happen and don't work quite the way Lee Child portrays them ... but, readers don't care.

I agree...I have found that when watching movies depicting various 'disaster's' involving transportation, or other infrastructure, if I point out technical error's by the producer's that are 'fake', it mostly annoys those watching with me, that only see it for the entertainment value...they are not interested in being 'educated' as to what is technically accurate. I have since learned to see it their way, and enjoy the story and not nitpick the errors...

Of course, if watching with other knowledgeable viewer's, it can become a 'contest' to see who can spot the most error's...

 

[Seaboard92]

I’m a fiction writer but mostly for screen and stage. That’s what I like to do as a hobby. Nothing published as of yet.

But as far as things go if you had an ancient locomotive by that time from the 50s with a deadman’s pedal. Throw a lunchbox on it and open the throttle. It’ll run till it derails. Now a days they’ve changed how that works so engineers can’t cheat the system.

But for the most part I think for a children’s book no one will notice how accurate it is. Best of luck.

Trains also have electrostatic brakes (think that’s the relevant term) so when they are applied hard it doesn’t stop the wheel completely and prevents flat spots from being made on the wheel. Basically it pumps on and off. The most notable time I’ve felt them was on the rear of a 24 car train.

 

[zephyr17]

Oops, @zephyr17, just to clarify: in my story, emergency stopping doesn't 'break' the train, it's a later action by the bad guy, a hacker. First, bad guy emergency-stops the train. Everyone is evacuated. I guess both of these could be done by what hackers call social engineering (convincing a human to take an action by lying to them, so maybe the conductor could be fooled into both stopping and evacuating the train). Then, a few scenes later, the bad guy splits the train (somehow! hopefully with an electronic signal, because by now, the conductor has also left the train). I've tried to research how train cars are decoupled, and I *think* it is done with an electronic signal, so it's feasible that a hacker could do this. I am deeply in the realm of sci-fi now, though, I think! I would welcome any feedback, and thank you for letting me access your brain!

The train can get moving after an emergency brake application assuming the air line is intact, once the air pressure is pumped back up. Procedurally the train must be inspected.

All of these systems are mechanical, not electronic. North American cars are uncoupled by pulling a physical cut lever, which unlocks the coupler knuckle. Someone on the ground pulls the cut lever. None of this could be done remotely electronically/digitally.

None of these things are complex. Many more technically inclined railfans know how cut levers and angle c-cks work. The most plausible scenario is your bad guy pulls an emergency brake handle, opens a manually operated door, gets out, closes an angle c-ck, pulls the cut lever at the same place, gets back on. Assuming he cased where the conductor was on the train, and not where he intends to do this, it could be done in just a couple minutes. No flying bodies or passenger injuries in the stop though.

Issues, assuming your bad guys does all this quickly and undetected.
How does the closed angle co-k and opened cut lever escape the conductor's notice on the inspection?
How does the engineer not notice when getting underway that he only has half his train?

If you want something electronic to manipulate, consider the signal system, which is electronic. You could set the signal for a normal stop, then your bad guy could get out, uncouple the car, and get back on without the nature of the stop initiating an inspection.

 

[zephyr17]

I’m a fiction writer but mostly for screen and stage. That’s what I like to do as a hobby. Nothing published as of yet.

But as far as things go if you had an ancient locomotive by that time from the 50s with a deadman’s pedal. Throw a lunchbox on it and open the throttle. It’ll run till it derails. Now a days they’ve changed how that works so engineers can’t cheat the system.

But for the most part I think for a children’s book no one will notice how accurate it is. Best of luck.

Trains also have electrostatic brakes (think that’s the relevant term) so when they are applied hard it doesn’t stop the wheel completely and prevents flat spots from being made on the wheel. Basically it pumps on and off. The most notable time I’ve felt them was on the rear of a 24 car train.

I know the decelostat braking sysytems that pulses brakes to prevent flat spots operates in in service brake applications, does it also operate in emergency applications when the train line air pressure is lost?