American Eagle - helicopter collision

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Trogdor

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Somewhat surprised there isn’t already a thread on this here.

Was shocked to wake up to that news this morning. As one who doesn’t watch TV (seriously, at all), I didn’t see the news last night. Went to bed around 9 or 9:30 pm.

Didn’t hear anything even though I have a view of the edge of DCA from my apartment and live less than 1.5 miles from where the plane went down.
 
Years ago, cut my teeth on that approach the CRJ was to make. For the CRJ that is not a really short runway. It is more than adequate The approach is very straight forward. Once flight accepts landing on 33 the tower will clear next aircraft into position and hold runway 36. Tower says cleared to land 33 cross 36 or report across 36 during bad visibility situations. Once acknowledge land on 33 tower clears next airplane to taxi into position and hold runway 36. Once 33 landing clears 36 the aircraft in position is cleared to take off runway 36.

Now Bolling AFB is a real monster especially when it was still an active air force station. Do not know the situation now but Bolling and WASH used common frequencies with any military traffic not landing cross over center of field. Do not remember Bolling altitudes then but now helicopters are supposed to cross over at 200 feet AGL. Also, helicopter was not in Bolling airspace. The CRJ was in DCA airspace and at ~~400+ feet AGL.

Cannot ever remember a nighttime landing on 33 so cannot comment on visibility. With so many ground LED lights must be much more difficult now.
 
When I lived in DC( 70s-2001),,I used to frequently use DCA( National), mostly flying on the old Eastern Shuttle, until a co-worker turned me on to BWI and Amtrak when I needed to go somewhere on the NEC or Fly,which I did frequently.

Dulles was too far away and required a long drive in Heavy Traffic while BWI was much less busy and easy to get to/from via Amtrak.

Even then National was very busy,,and actually dangerous ( the Air Florida Crash was the last straw for me)due to all the traffic, Military,Commercial and Private, and the Restrictions on Flight paths due to the Ban on overflying most of the District.
 
I was surprised too....

One another board I follow, which shall remain nameless, there was some interesting, if unconfirmed, information about the choppers origin....
I've been quietly following the wild west as well (reddit aviation). That rumor, based on where the helicopter's tracking started, in the fancy western suburbs around McLean, was countered by an assertion that tracking doesn't always start where the plane starts. Reports now are that is was flying to and from Fort Belvoir, near Mount Vernon, south of the airport. Military planes can have the transponder off, and in the tower are tracked from the ground by triangulation, it's said. What is confirmed is that the helicopter was supposed to be under 200 feet and along the east bank of the Potomac at the crash site, instead of about 375 feet and in the middle of the river. The other issue is one controller in the tower instead of two. My prediction is that due to the labor shortage, the FAA will not broadly fire/resign controllers, as has been more or less threatened politically, but may add new ones on a less inclusive basis, maybe using contractors or the military. The NTSB may get drawn into politics as well, which would be a first.

Broadly, the military is a different world, highly respected in my parts, but well-known enough to garner some realism, inside and out. It has its own labor challenges, and has a rules-based diversity that even extends to non-citizen recruits, such as from Mexico and the Philippines, US territory for the whole first half of the 20th century. Naval areas like San Francisco and Norfolk have higher Filipino populations than some cities in the Philippines. (Just an example of diversity, not related to the helicopter.) The rules have worked out to be a strength. They can be jarring to outsiders. As an example, a captain asleep in the bunk when a ship crashes loses his or her command, and career (officers have to advance). It was big news when that practice was not followed in an incident in the western Pacific a few years ago. Another example of order is that the top admiral in North American NATO is always French. (The de Gaulle rift is over.) That may explain why French shipping giant CMA CGM has its US HQ in Norfolk.

DCA used to be restricted to flights serving St. Louis and east. Once that restriction was lifted, it's been continuously growing, and mandated by Congress to allow more flights. It is now somehow a hub for American Airlines. With the general increase in flying, it's not clear IAD and BWI could handle the percentage they used to. BWI would certainly give it a go. Back in my day EWR in New Jersey was tumbleweeds and now it's highly congested. DCA is ultra convenient to Washington, and even LGA in New York is fairly so. I took a fast water taxi to Wall Street from there once, from the pretty former Pan Am terminal, the old Marine Air Terminal. Miami has a similar Art Deco former seaplane terminal, now the surprisingly compact City Hall.

It strikes me the new Silver Line Metro to IAD is somewhat like the 1970s Train to the Plane on the NYC subway, the lux version of the A Train. It also takes an hour, and a taxi is also usually faster, but not only train nerds find the Metro more relaxing and predictable. The latter didn't really apply to the Train to the Plane, despite the marketing. The Silver Line is successful, despite the lamentable compromises building it.

One suggestion I've read is for military training around DCA to take place after 10 PM, when commercial flights end, and the reason there was one controller rather than two at 8:30 PM. (They're overworked and the supervisor let one go home.)

For those of us who remember the 14th Street Bridge crash in 1982, also into an icy Potomac, it's now even more heroic to remember two bystanders named Roger Olian and Lenny Skutnik jumping into the water to save people. Reminiscent of Sullenberger on the Hudson. Sadly it's not often possible. And that taxi trip to IAD is more dangerous than flying.
 
I heard the ATC recording which was posted by a private pilot who obtained it from FAA. From it it is clear that PAT25 (the helicopter) asked for, was granted, and accepted visual navigation. So it was on it to avoid collisions with aircraft that were operating in controlled space along well established glide path.

Of course we will know for sure what really happened only after the NTSB inquiry is completed. But at present it would appear that no fault can be ascribed to the commercial flight.
 
But at present it would appear that no fault can be ascribed to the commercial flight.
That was really never in question - the AA flight was doing exactly what it was supposed to be doing and was instructed to do.

What I'm wondering - and will most likely be part of the investigation - does the military have an attitude of "we are the military we can do whatever we want" which hinders the Air Traffic Control from declining orders or giving specific orders? Or does the Air Traffic Control have more authority since they are federal?

To me, it is concerning that these flight paths were so close to begin with. If the airport is going to use runway 33 (which I think it should be able to and needs to be able to) - helicopters should not be permitted to fly in that area. So if helicopters need to take that route, the ATC needs to give them permission only when they will not be using runway 33.

Of course all of this is in hindsight - and will be solved by experts who know a lot more about planes then I do. I'm pretty sure I've had at least one of the flight attendants who was on-board.. I fly those smaller AA flights through Charlotte frequently. If it was her, she was so nice and was genuinely excited to be a flight attendant. So sad.
 
Years ago, cut my teeth on that approach the CRJ was to make. For the CRJ that is not a really short runway. It is more than adequate The approach is very straight forward. Once flight accepts landing on 33 the tower will clear next aircraft into position and hold runway 36. Tower says cleared to land 33 cross 36 or report across 36 during bad visibility situations. Once acknowledge land on 33 tower clears next airplane to taxi into position and hold runway 36. Once 33 landing clears 36 the aircraft in position is cleared to take off runway 36.

Now Bolling AFB is a real monster especially when it was still an active air force station. Do not know the situation now but Bolling and WASH used common frequencies with any military traffic not landing cross over center of field. Do not remember Bolling altitudes then but now helicopters are supposed to cross over at 200 feet AGL. Also, helicopter was not in Bolling airspace. The CRJ was in DCA airspace and at ~~400+ feet AGL.

Cannot ever remember a nighttime landing on 33 so cannot comment on visibility. With so many ground LED lights must be much more difficult now.
The approach is not straight forward, it’s a GPS approach with turns. With the restrictions and all the other distractions it’s dangerous.
 
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