AmNames

[Greg]

Actually having McDonald's as a supplier of food for the Cafe's, Dinettes, and Bistro's is not such a bad idea. Get past the obvious joking part of it and consider these terms of mine:

- they offer a wider and more appealing selection than even a decade ago, for not so high a price

- since McDonald's is everywhere, you can not only more easily supply comissaries and rail yards with large quanties of perishables that will become breakfast, lunch, and dinner for all the corridor and medium distance trains, as well as lounge meals on the overnight runs, but also enables Amtrak to respond better to running out. If a train is significantly delayed, a local McDonald's can be tapped on a prearranged system to restock the train. Cardinal, or Pennsylvanian anyone?

- Amtrak's large presence as the nation's major intercity rail carrier means it can boost revenues for McDonald's, and in turn, get McDonald's to provide a higher quality selection on trains vs. what you'd normally find in it's fast food restaurants. Less, if any, burgers and fries, and more things like paninis and chicken salad roll-ups. Demand that McDonald's tone down their big yellow 'M' golden arches so that Amtrak's logo branding is the dominant presence.

- Diners on long distance trains are left alone, are not touched by McDonald's

By tapping into and harnessing the power of two large organizations, I seriously see win/win here. Amtrak can finally change it's mummified image, esp. on Northeast Regional cafe cars, in providing a more varied and easier accessable offering in it's cafe car menu's, be better prepared for emergencies that stop trains for hours at a time, or for when high demand exhausts on board supplies, and have tighter control over a greater stream of perishables to originating rail yards and terminals. McDonald's gets a significant new revenue source and a shot in the arm to their own image of supplying cheap fried heart attack food by being called upon to make more of some of their more recent entries and to develop more of them mainly for use on Amtrak trains. 30 million people a year ride us.

Another benefit not food related is that an alliance like this is a supernova of excellent publicity, and any 'green' initiatives that are coming down the pipeline will have a greater impact, be easier to impliment, and have a far reaching effect. For ex: if a method is adopted to replace the styrofoam trays and cups with something that's biodegradeable it will have far reaching effects that benefit the planet and will cause great praise and accolades for both McDonald's and Amtrak.

Let's talk.

I think anything that promotes the further "corporatization" of the nation's food supply is a bad idea. If anything, we (including Amtrak) should trend toward healthier and fresher foods. Perhaps the paninis and chicken salad roll-ups would accomplish this, but I can't fathom riding on Amtrak with McDonalds supplying the "food".

 

[Donctor]

Actually having McDonald's as a supplier of food for the Cafe's, Dinettes, and Bistro's is not such a bad idea. Get past the obvious joking part of it and consider these terms of mine:

- they offer a wider and more appealing selection than even a decade ago, for not so high a price

- since McDonald's is everywhere, you can not only more easily supply comissaries and rail yards with large quanties of perishables that will become breakfast, lunch, and dinner for all the corridor and medium distance trains, as well as lounge meals on the overnight runs, but also enables Amtrak to respond better to running out. If a train is significantly delayed, a local McDonald's can be tapped on a prearranged system to restock the train. Cardinal, or Pennsylvanian anyone?

- Amtrak's large presence as the nation's major intercity rail carrier means it can boost revenues for McDonald's, and in turn, get McDonald's to provide a higher quality selection on trains vs. what you'd normally find in it's fast food restaurants. Less, if any, burgers and fries, and more things like paninis and chicken salad roll-ups. Demand that McDonald's tone down their big yellow 'M' golden arches so that Amtrak's logo branding is the dominant presence.

- Diners on long distance trains are left alone, are not touched by McDonald's

By tapping into and harnessing the power of two large organizations, I seriously see win/win here. Amtrak can finally change it's mummified image, esp. on Northeast Regional cafe cars, in providing a more varied and easier accessable offering in it's cafe car menu's, be better prepared for emergencies that stop trains for hours at a time, or for when high demand exhausts on board supplies, and have tighter control over a greater stream of perishables to originating rail yards and terminals. McDonald's gets a significant new revenue source and a shot in the arm to their own image of supplying cheap fried heart attack food by being called upon to make more of some of their more recent entries and to develop more of them mainly for use on Amtrak trains. 30 million people a year ride us.

Another benefit not food related is that an alliance like this is a supernova of excellent publicity, and any 'green' initiatives that are coming down the pipeline will have a greater impact, be easier to impliment, and have a far reaching effect. For ex: if a method is adopted to replace the styrofoam trays and cups with something that's biodegradeable it will have far reaching effects that benefit the planet and will cause great praise and accolades for both McDonald's and Amtrak.

Let's talk.

AmNo.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm AMbivalent about this thread! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Shanghai]

And we even have an AmJim!!

 

[rrdude]

If AmDonald's happens, I would rot in AmHell.

Seriously, while well thought out argument, I'd never spend a dime on Amtrak f/s in cafe car again.

 

[jebr]

Actually having McDonald's as a supplier of food for the Cafe's, Dinettes, and Bistro's is not such a bad idea. Get past the obvious joking part of it and consider these terms of mine:

- they offer a wider and more appealing selection than even a decade ago, for not so high a price

- since McDonald's is everywhere, you can not only more easily supply comissaries and rail yards with large quanties of perishables that will become breakfast, lunch, and dinner for all the corridor and medium distance trains, as well as lounge meals on the overnight runs, but also enables Amtrak to respond better to running out. If a train is significantly delayed, a local McDonald's can be tapped on a prearranged system to restock the train. Cardinal, or Pennsylvanian anyone?

- Amtrak's large presence as the nation's major intercity rail carrier means it can boost revenues for McDonald's, and in turn, get McDonald's to provide a higher quality selection on trains vs. what you'd normally find in it's fast food restaurants. Less, if any, burgers and fries, and more things like paninis and chicken salad roll-ups. Demand that McDonald's tone down their big yellow 'M' golden arches so that Amtrak's logo branding is the dominant presence.

- Diners on long distance trains are left alone, are not touched by McDonald's

By tapping into and harnessing the power of two large organizations, I seriously see win/win here. Amtrak can finally change it's mummified image, esp. on Northeast Regional cafe cars, in providing a more varied and easier accessable offering in it's cafe car menu's, be better prepared for emergencies that stop trains for hours at a time, or for when high demand exhausts on board supplies, and have tighter control over a greater stream of perishables to originating rail yards and terminals. McDonald's gets a significant new revenue source and a shot in the arm to their own image of supplying cheap fried heart attack food by being called upon to make more of some of their more recent entries and to develop more of them mainly for use on Amtrak trains. 30 million people a year ride us.

Another benefit not food related is that an alliance like this is a supernova of excellent publicity, and any 'green' initiatives that are coming down the pipeline will have a greater impact, be easier to impliment, and have a far reaching effect. For ex: if a method is adopted to replace the styrofoam trays and cups with something that's biodegradeable it will have far reaching effects that benefit the planet and will cause great praise and accolades for both McDonald's and Amtrak.

Let's talk.

Here's the rub, though: A fair amount of people probably at least want the fattening options that McDonald's is famous for available. Myself, there's times when McDonald's fries just hit the spot. I'm also not sure that McDonalds currently has all of those healthy options you use as examples, and I'd be hard pressed to see them add too many special options for Amtrak, and their current options (especially fried food) wouldn't seem to be easy to convert to a train operation.

Another problem is that, at least outside of the NEC, there aren't a ton of passengers who will be eating food. Probably around 200-300 coach passengers are on a train (sleeper passengers get free diner meals), so even if it's full, that's only 200-300 people a meal on a LD train. That doesn't seem terribly busy, at least by McDonald's standards. The cost probably also wouldn't be much cheaper than Amtrak, as I believe the largest cost is labor, and very few people will work on a train for minimum wage, especially for the time that they have to work.

However, maybe a company that won't necessarily lower prices, but offer better products would be a replacement option. Maybe a Panera Bread or Starbucks on board (Starbucks now has some hot sandwiches, along with the cooler case of cold sandwiches), where they can charge a bit more (and thus be able to afford the additional cost of train labor) and have an image for quality food. Starbucks especially would have the locations to restock trains in most places (for example, they could restock the Zephyr in Omaha, Denver, Salt Lake, Reno, and Sacramento if need be, and that's just off the top of my head. Panera probably has locations in all of those places, too.)

 

[tubaia]

AmWay?

Isn't that the pyramid scheme Amtrak started years ago? I think it led to today's AGR program. :giggle:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Food on trains should be edible. McDonalds does not meet this criteria.

 

[rrdude]

Food on trains should be edible. McDonalds does not meet this criteria.

I'm on the fence on this one, and perhaps leaning. While I "feel" the same way you do GML, his argument has some merit. ESPECIALLY if it were private-branded as "AmFood" or whatever the mktg dpt comes up with.

While probably not lowering costs, one has to admit that McD's HAS the consistency thing nailed. That's part of their core philosophy. (of course sustainable farming, livestock conditions, and a host of other topics are only slowly making inroads at Hamburger U's corporate HQ)

Now, while not being a "fan" of McD's, I am from time-to-time a customer, and have been a technology supplier to the f/s industry for over 25 years. If one reads the ingredients on some of the Amcafe sandwiches or other pre-packaged products, it's enuff to give your chills. I"m not sure that a company like McD's would even consider catering an operation like this, as they make extensive use of fryers and flat-top grills, neither of which you find on an AmCan, so the point may be moot.

I guess the overall opinion is that the AmCafe food could, and should be better, healthier, but given their circumstances (storage, equipment, or lack thereof, and staffing) it's probably not going to change much, no matter how much AU'er's discuss the topic.

But that's part of the reason for a forum like this, to "dream". Personally, I'd love to see equipment like the old lunch-counter cars come back, where one could actually "cook" food to order, not reheat. But it ain't happening, EVAH!

 

[Blackwolf]

Has there ever been a deep fat fryer aboard a train? I'd hate to see the AmBurn caused by an AmFry-o-lator after encountering a bad section of track!! :help:

 

[railbuck]

Has there ever been a deep fat fryer aboard a train? I'd hate to see the AmBurn caused by an AmFry-o-lator after encountering a bad section of track!! :help:

Might need to call an AmBulance.

 

[Donctor]

Food on trains should be edible. McDonalds does not meet this criteria.

Agreed.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Actually having McDonald's as a supplier of food for the Cafe's, Dinettes, and Bistro's is not such a bad idea. Get past the obvious joking part of it and consider these terms of mine:

- they offer a wider and more appealing selection than even a decade ago, for not so high a price

- since McDonald's is everywhere, you can not only more easily supply comissaries and rail yards with large quanties of perishables that will become breakfast, lunch, and dinner for all the corridor and medium distance trains, as well as lounge meals on the overnight runs, but also enables Amtrak to respond better to running out. If a train is significantly delayed, a local McDonald's can be tapped on a prearranged system to restock the train. Cardinal, or Pennsylvanian anyone?

- Amtrak's large presence as the nation's major intercity rail carrier means it can boost revenues for McDonald's, and in turn, get McDonald's to provide a higher quality selection on trains vs. what you'd normally find in it's fast food restaurants. Less, if any, burgers and fries, and more things like paninis and chicken salad roll-ups. Demand that McDonald's tone down their big yellow 'M' golden arches so that Amtrak's logo branding is the dominant presence.

- Diners on long distance trains are left alone, are not touched by McDonald's

By tapping into and harnessing the power of two large organizations, I seriously see win/win here. Amtrak can finally change it's mummified image, esp. on Northeast Regional cafe cars, in providing a more varied and easier accessable offering in it's cafe car menu's, be better prepared for emergencies that stop trains for hours at a time, or for when high demand exhausts on board supplies, and have tighter control over a greater stream of perishables to originating rail yards and terminals. McDonald's gets a significant new revenue source and a shot in the arm to their own image of supplying cheap fried heart attack food by being called upon to make more of some of their more recent entries and to develop more of them mainly for use on Amtrak trains. 30 million people a year ride us.

Another benefit not food related is that an alliance like this is a supernova of excellent publicity, and any 'green' initiatives that are coming down the pipeline will have a greater impact, be easier to impliment, and have a far reaching effect. For ex: if a method is adopted to replace the styrofoam trays and cups with something that's biodegradeable it will have far reaching effects that benefit the planet and will cause great praise and accolades for both McDonald's and Amtrak.

Let's talk.

If we are talking about going in this direction with food service Subway would be a better choice. They put those in everywhere, gas statios, Walmart, hospitals, airports, universities, food courts, etc... Not to mention Subway now has more stores than McDonalds. I can easily see a standard sized Subway counter including ovens fitting in an Amfleet cafe. The only problem would be having enough room for supplies, ingredients, soft drinks, ice, etc. and still have room for staff to work, the current cafe cars already have this problem.

 

[NE933]

If we are talking about going in this direction with food service Subway would be a better choice. They put those in everywhere, gas statios, Walmart, hospitals, airports, universities, food courts, etc... Not to mention Subway now has more stores than McDonalds. I can easily see a standard sized Subway counter including ovens fitting in an Amfleet cafe. The only problem would be having enough room for supplies, ingredients, soft drinks, ice, etc. and still have room for staff to work, the current cafe cars already have this problem.

Well, Subway is healthier and I do like it myself, but they only do sandwiches (not that McDonald's is much better but they do have salads and other sides, or have recently test ventured them, why not make Amtrak the testbed of new and better products?)

 

[SubwayNut]

Subway (tried to find the press release but Amtrak doesn't seem to archive them on line past 2007) I believe it was tried to run a food cart on the Empire Service a few years ago after it went food less, it didn't last long (as in I think for just a few days).

 

[Ispolkom]

Food on trains should be edible. McDonalds does not meet this criteria.

Agreed.

Sadly, Amtrak Cafe food also is not edible.

 

[Lawdude]

I find this discussion of food service on trains to be a bit surreal.

It's very costly to provide food on trains. Always has been. And it's pretty obvious why. Since the trains are moving, you need to be able to restock them with food at regular intervals, which means you need a pretty widespread distribution system. You also need personnel on the trains to sell the food, and accounting and inventory management to account for the food and the revenues, costs, and expenditures. And, with respect to food that is cooked onboard (i.e., dining car food as opposed to cafe car food), you need cooks and waiters and either dishwashers or disposable flatware and plates and cups. Plus, if you are cooking onboard, food preservation issues are probably going to mean you need an even more widespread food distribution system.

This is the backstory to the congressionally encouraged switch to SDS a few years back. Food service on trains costs a ton of money-- GOOD food service costs even more.

Any proposal on food service, in the current environment, is not going to be about giving rail passengers better food. It's going to be about cutting costs. In that regard, I could certainly see an attempt to enter into a marketing agreement with a fast food chain or some other major food manufacturing concern-- but in order for it to make ANY sense for Amtrak, it would have to include the dining cars (where food service is an even greater cost) as well as the cafe cars.

I am very pessimistic as to what happens in the long term to Amtrak long distance food service. But you can pretty easily see the basic scope of the problem by looking at what companies like Southern Pacific were doing on their long distance trains in the years before Amtrak was created. Diners got replaced by coffee shops and lunch counters, lunch counters were replaced by automats. Food service costs were huge. They still are. I suspect the next time that big-time budget cutters are in charge, this is going to be the focus of even more cuts. And I'll say this for the idea of McDonald's or Subway catering-- it beats an automat car.

 

[Anderson]

With all of the talk of McDonalds, why not consider Panera or someone in that vein? Again, you've often got a system of pre-packaged food (in Panera's case, I know that for example the Mac and Cheese comes in a pouch that is just heated, sliced open, and poured in the bowl; I think the sandwiches are in a similar vein, as are the salads...where you have a "base salad" and then a topping mix that is put in). I raise Panera (or Au Bon Pain...substantially similar, same corporate history but different owners now, and the latter has locations in a lot of the big NER stations) partly because of the relative variety of food there.

As to McDonalds, honestly, I've grabbed a few Sausage Egg McMuffins before boarding the train out of NPN. Somehow, the on-board breakfast sandwiches didn't appeal to me as much as one of those and a hashbrown.

Another possibility would be to operate several franchises (say, one for the NEC, one for the Midwest, and one for CA). More or less keep the LD trains in-house (or on their own franchise) for the cafe side of things.

Finally, one thing that I'm hoping Amtrak can do is find a way to, on some of the really long non-overnight routes (Palmetto, Adirondack, etc. come to mind...I'm thinking 6-10 hour rides) get something a bit closer to the diner-club operation they're looking at trial-ing on the LSL. A decent meal en route (and one that I'm quite happy to hand over cash for, I'd note) makes a long trip far more enjoyable.

 

[rrdude]

Numerous sub-topics here, but let me remind us all, that on LD trains, the "Dining Car" was NEVER a source of revenue, it was an "amenity", that actually was supposed to help entice patrons to travel by train. (and eliminate the need to stop at a Harvey House, or other land-based station-restaurant, in order to allow for a faster schedule)

If tomorrow Amtrak were to further down-grade the selections in the diner, or completely go to a "cafe-car" type of concept on LD trains, I'd be done with any Amtrak rail travel. PERIOD. FULL STOP. (other than NEC, where Amtrak is pure-transportation)

I'd save my cash, and travel on charters or other rail trips, where I could experience enjoying a cooked-to-order meal, leisurely, with a glass (or bottle) of wine.

While simply "riding a train" is somewhat enjoyable in and of itself, I'm looking for the OVERALL experience, and fine-dining food service is one of those. I'm currently debating the LSL Eastbound, solely for the purpose of having a few meals in the diner.

I don't think Amtrak's marketing department has ever done an accurate job of conveying what the "LD rail travel experience" could be. But perhaps they have erred on the side of reality, and not tried to get the public's general expectations too high.

 

[jebr]

Numerous sub-topics here, but let me remind us all, that on LD trains, the "Dining Car" was NEVER a source of revenue, it was an "amenity", that actually was supposed to help entice patrons to travel by train. (and eliminate the need to stop at a Harvey House, or other land-based station-restaurant, in order to allow for a faster schedule)

If tomorrow Amtrak were to further down-grade the selections in the diner, or completely go to a "cafe-car" type of concept on LD trains, I'd be done with any Amtrak rail travel. PERIOD. FULL STOP. (other than NEC, where Amtrak is pure-transportation)

I'd save my cash, and travel on charters or other rail trips, where I could experience enjoying a cooked-to-order meal, leisurely, with a glass (or bottle) of wine.

While simply "riding a train" is somewhat enjoyable in and of itself, I'm looking for the OVERALL experience, and fine-dining food service is one of those. I'm currently debating the LSL Eastbound, solely for the purpose of having a few meals in the diner.

I don't think Amtrak's marketing department has ever done an accurate job of conveying what the "LD rail travel experience" could be. But perhaps they have erred on the side of reality, and not tried to get the public's general expectations too high.

Definitely. Let's not get rid of the dining car on LD routes...when trains are multiple days, even a Panera-style cafe car wouldn't be enough.

The cafe car would be a nice place to do an overhaul. I look at the menu and I'm not sure I'd actually want to make that my meal. Something like Panera or Starbucks, which has a reputation for decent food (even if it's made the same way) would make myself and others more open to eating full meals there. It also gives a huge network to have the cafe car restocked with food if there's more demand for the food or the train is very late and the dining car is running out of food.

 

[Lawdude]

Don't assume that "railfans who like dining cars" is the most important segment of the market, even on long distance routes.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

First of all, to anybody who thinks Subway is healthier than McDonalds: You've been duped. Stop looking at numbers and look at the actual ingredients used. They are really about the same, by which I mean they are absolutely terrible for you and anyone who wants to live a long, healthy, productive life would do well to eat neither "food".

I'd rather go hungry then eat either. I love eating. I love tasting food. Taste is multidimensional. If to you the first bite is the same as the last... you need to learn how to taste things. And you are eating homogenized garbage like McDonald's or Subway. Shame on you.

I have long noticed the terrible decline in food quality. EVERYWHERE. Why do we put up with this? Chicken has stopped tasting like chicken. Beef has stopped tasting like beef. Pork has stopped tasting like pork. Fruit has stopped tasting like fruit. I buy most of my food at farmers markets- partly because I run my business out of them 5 days a week, but also because, um, its worth eating.

Be sane. Stop eating at chains. Stop eating the garbage so many of them dish out. I'd rather not eat at all then eating at the following places: McDonalds, Burger King, Five Guys, Denny's, Fridays, Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday's, Perkins, Chili's, Arby's, Subway, Quizno's, Blimpie's, Sbarro, Au Bon Pain, IHOP, Chik Fil A, Dunkin' Donuts, and of course, Starbucks. How not eat? If they were the last food sources on earth, I'd rather die of starvation... or maybe kill, cook, and eat their employees. I mean, Petro's Iron Skillet and Travel America's Buckhorn are better. And they are chain truck stops, for crying out loud.

Safe choices? That's the reason I hear. Consistent, safe. Yeah, they are consistently terrible. Inedible. Be safe. Avoid all danger. Stay in your house. Strap everything down and to the wall so it doesn't fall. Pad your walls. Filter your air. Put a back up filter in case the first filter fails. You might get a disease or something.

I moved to Adamstown, PA four months ago. I have dined in... 9 different establishments, locally within 10 miles of my house. Of them only one of them wasn't good, interesting, with local flavor, and quality ingredients. Good places to eat can be found. Why in the name of God would you patronize and give money to these crappy chains over a local eatery, a local economy, a local flavor, a person who had the guts to actually start their own restaurant and craft their own food?

I don't complain about Amtrak's food much... because they are better then ANY of those chains up there I have mentioned. Those chains represent a vast majority of dining establishment revenue in this country. Amtrak is better then this- better than the vast majority by sales. I can't ask for better than that from our national rail provider.

 

[Blackwolf]

Don't assume that "railfans who like dining cars" is the most important segment of the market, even on long distance routes.

I would be comfortable in predicting that if you remove full-service dining from any form of transport, be it train or ship or even airliners, when the trip lasts greater than 10 hours and you are going to experience a precipitous drop in interest. Rail fan or not, people want to eat well. If you are taking the train from the SF Bay Area to Chicago, a fast-food setup is just not going to cut it. Period, end of discussion. This is a sentement shared both by me (the rail fan) and by those around me; friend, coworker, and family alike. Food service is a "loss-leader" on every single method of transportation that offers it; even mighty Carnival Cruise Lines, with their many brands (Cunard, Costa, Holland-America, etc.) loose money on the food because they know they actually make it back and then some on the other end through the allure and subsequent profit when bookings increase. Eliminate the fancy dining rooms and all-you-can-eat buffets, substitute a Burger King in their place, and watch the passengers jump ship faster than if the vessel had just tore her keel out on a reef. This is as true now as it was 100 years ago. Transat; aka Compagnie Générale Transatlantique, aka The French Line (owner and operator of such famous ships as the France, Ile de France, Normandy) was a heavily subsidized and marginally profitable trans-Atlantic shipping company that existed from 1861 through its merger in 1996, and they made food (even at massive loss financially) their center core philosophy to such a degree that even the interior architecture of the ships were designed with enticing the appetite in mind.

So you are right, "railfans who like dining cars" are not the focus. "Paying passengers who like dining cars" are very much the focus, and will remain that way. Amtrak does a lot of idiotic things, but they are not completely AmStupid! :lol: :giggle:

 

[Lawdude]

Blackwolf:

Actually, the airline experience proves the opposite. Like it or not, food service is actually a great place to cut costs (I am speaking from a standpoint of what works, not whether I'd like it if they did it-- indeed, I hate the fact that you don't get a meal on a 6 hour flight from Boston to LA or an 8 hour flight from Chicago to Honolulu anymore, but as a cost cutting measure, it was effective).

In fact, I suspect that much of the grumbling here is bluster. People ride trains because they serve destinations, because the people like riding trains, because of cost competitiveness, because they don't like flying, etc. How many people stopped riding Amtrak when they went to SDS? When they started using the CCC? When they took the full diners off the Cardinal and LSL?

As long as we have long distance trains in this country, there will always and forever be a tension between what train enthusiasts would prefer in terms of service and what is cost effective. Food service is one of those areas where the tension plays out.

 

[Donctor]

I don't think Amtrak's marketing department has ever done an accurate job of conveying what the "LD rail travel experience" could be. But perhaps they have erred on the side of reality, and not tried to get the public's general expectations too high.

Perhaps not. I've seen so many disappointed first-time riders with unmet expectations—reasonable ones, like expecting a clean room or free ice—that I'd want to err on the side of caution, too.